New idea, for low and high end power
09-12-2003, 01:34 PM
#1
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New idea, for low and high end power
Many people complain about having a CAI but not having low-end power, and other complain about having a HAI and not having the high-end power (or something like that)....well i have an idea:
Recently I saw a post regarding an exhaust cutout. Well what if we install some sortof cutout right after the TB, having the HAI coming straight out and a CAI coming out of the 2nd opening, that way the driver gets to choose where he wants the air sucked from. Or even if we want to get complicated, instead of having a switch...install some sort of chip that detects RPMs and switches automatically.
YES, I know this somewhat relates to a MEVI, but consider this a cheaper option!
Any thoughts welcome...
Recently I saw a post regarding an exhaust cutout. Well what if we install some sortof cutout right after the TB, having the HAI coming straight out and a CAI coming out of the 2nd opening, that way the driver gets to choose where he wants the air sucked from. Or even if we want to get complicated, instead of having a switch...install some sort of chip that detects RPMs and switches automatically.
YES, I know this somewhat relates to a MEVI, but consider this a cheaper option!
Any thoughts welcome...
09-12-2003, 02:02 PM
#2
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I've been thinking about that for months. The way I thought it could be is thatyou'd use something that looks like the exhaust cut out on the outside. It would be made of thin aluminum and both holes would be open all the time. It would be like this
tb > maf > cut out thingy. Maybe the stock resonator in there somewhere...
tb > maf > cut out thingy. Maybe the stock resonator in there somewhere...
09-12-2003, 06:31 PM
#7
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The solution to low end and high end power is to use the stock intake and just open it up slightly by modifying the sealed resonator box down below the battery.
You get plenty of torque down low and the ability for the stock intake to breather better on the high end.
The VQ delivers much smoother power with the stock intake in place, believe it or not......
You get plenty of torque down low and the ability for the stock intake to breather better on the high end.
The VQ delivers much smoother power with the stock intake in place, believe it or not......
09-12-2003, 08:06 PM
#9
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it cant block both, it has to choose 1 or the other, IF bychance there happens to be a problem, most likely what would happen is both would probably be open at the same time. Think of a flap....it can either be in the middle, to one side, or the other side.
09-12-2003, 08:23 PM
#11
Originally Posted by njmaxseltd
The solution to low end and high end power is to use the stock intake and just open it up slightly by modifying the sealed resonator box down below the battery.
Does it have a roar when you floor it or is it quiet?
09-12-2003, 09:45 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by s0ber
how does that AEM bypass valve work? doesn't it work in a similar way if water gets in the intake?? I dont know... Would be cool if someone would invent something to work like this.... I'd pay to have that.
09-13-2003, 05:43 AM
#15
i was thinking same thing SXN was, u can try to get a 3" splitter and hook both intakes up to that. but then i thought about this weapon-R intake i saw, it looked just like hybrid but there was a 3" hose connected to the end of it to get cold air from somewhere else just like the hacked air box idea.
so i thought if u want noise and "power" u can go with the weapon-r style and is u want to be quiet, u can go hacked airbox/OSCAI
so i thought if u want noise and "power" u can go with the weapon-r style and is u want to be quiet, u can go hacked airbox/OSCAI
09-13-2003, 08:00 AM
#17
If you leave both open, the inoming air will take the path of least resistance, through the HAI, even the the CAI is still wide open. No need to completely block the CAI path. Just block the HAI path and then open it.
Anyhow, the CAI is not really the weak point, it's the lack of an MEVI. The CAI exaggerates that weakness. Look at MEVI cars with a CAI. The top end is just about as good as an HAI.
DW
Anyhow, the CAI is not really the weak point, it's the lack of an MEVI. The CAI exaggerates that weakness. Look at MEVI cars with a CAI. The top end is just about as good as an HAI.
DW
09-13-2003, 09:41 AM
#18
Originally Posted by PoePoe2797
If you let both open at the same time you defeat the purpose....a CAI is for lower end power and a HAI is for higher end power. With both open, one of the intakes is always going to contadict the other one.
you would have to have 2 cutouts basically, one for a CAI and one for the HAI, and it could all be either manually done or electronically. Kind of like nitrous, and the window switch- my nitrous activates from 3k-6.5k because the throttle hits the switch on top of the tb.
Now if you have it controlled so that the HAI cutout opens up at about 4.5k so that it gets into its top end powerband and have it close the CAI cutout at that time it shoult theoroectially work just right. but only at WOT.
This would be pretty costly though, almost not worth it. Just get a CAI and MEVI if you're that concerned about top and low end power, I mean is the difference between the 2 kinds of intakes really THAT different? And worth all of this trouble? Dont get me wrong it would be very cool, but if we have taken this long and gone through this much hastle just to get some headers...then this is doesnt look like it would happen anytime soon, except for the DIY'ers.
09-13-2003, 10:40 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by dwapenyi
If you leave both open, the inoming air will take the path of least resistance, through the HAI, even the the CAI is still wide open. No need to completely block the CAI path. Just block the HAI path and then open it.
Anyhow, the CAI is not really the weak point, it's the lack of an MEVI. The CAI exaggerates that weakness. Look at MEVI cars with a CAI. The top end is just about as good as an HAI.
DW
Anyhow, the CAI is not really the weak point, it's the lack of an MEVI. The CAI exaggerates that weakness. Look at MEVI cars with a CAI. The top end is just about as good as an HAI.
DW
09-13-2003, 11:23 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by njmaxseltd
The solution to low end and high end power is to use the stock intake and just open it up slightly by modifying the sealed resonator box down below the battery.
You get plenty of torque down low and the ability for the stock intake to breather better on the high end.
The VQ delivers much smoother power with the stock intake in place, believe it or not......
You get plenty of torque down low and the ability for the stock intake to breather better on the high end.
The VQ delivers much smoother power with the stock intake in place, believe it or not......
Regarding this post, read dwapenyi's post again. Air comes from the least restrictive source. So if you have a split intake with one end being a CAI and the other being a HAI then the air is going to come from the least restrictive source, since the HAI is likely to be closer and have less bends this is where the air will come from; unless you make it super small so that it cannot meet the demands of what the throttle body is capable of, then it would take some air from the CAI.
I think you guy's are putting way to much thought into just an intake, it really won't make a difference whether you have a CAI or HAI or system that switches over between the two. You are talking about a lot of money /R&D/ effort for just a couple of HP that you won't see in a race. A nitrous system would probably be cheaper and defintaly more rewarding as far as speed than a project like this when all is said and done.
09-13-2003, 11:36 AM
#22
intake's only give like 3-7hp anyways
whats the point of doing all this work for +-1hp?
also, the CAI is the one that lacks high end, and HAI lacks low end supposedly
i have a HAI and my whole powerband is just like stock...maybe a 5hp increase...nothing noticable
just another thought...if you need power...you're going to be in the upper range of the powerband...so whats the point of increasing low end? just downshift
only place low end does anything is for auto's in first gear...other than that...its all high end
whats the point of doing all this work for +-1hp?
also, the CAI is the one that lacks high end, and HAI lacks low end supposedly
i have a HAI and my whole powerband is just like stock...maybe a 5hp increase...nothing noticable
just another thought...if you need power...you're going to be in the upper range of the powerband...so whats the point of increasing low end? just downshift
only place low end does anything is for auto's in first gear...other than that...its all high end
09-13-2003, 11:47 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by SleepyMaxxx68
A Two Headed Intake???? Just A Thought
Wouldn't be too hard to fab up something with two 3" inlet K&N or other generic filters. I'm not sure how airflow is affected when the air streams from each side of the "Y" meet up. Seems like it would be easier and probably flow better if you just stuffed the biggest cone or tube filter onto there as you could.
Aloha,
Quack2x
09-13-2003, 12:04 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Street Reeper
A nitrous system would probably be cheaper and defintaly more rewarding as far as speed than a project like this when all is said and done.
I agree with that one. There is a difference between the intakes though for sure. I tried them today- between just a pop, hybrid and then removing the tube and box that branches off of the res. box after the MAFS- this and the plain old pop were the same, but the hybrid def. did have a lag to it before the power got there. The pop charger had it right away, but didnt sound as good 
09-13-2003, 06:41 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by venompwr2
I just had a whole thread about this the other day ...
your thread was about an impala intake that was just a two headed filter. these guys are talking about a hot air intake, and a y split to a cold air assembly...not just two air filters right next to each other which is what you were talking about/had a picture of
09-14-2003, 01:49 PM
#27
Originally Posted by SXN
no your thread was about an impala intake that was just a two headed filter. these guys are talking about a hot air intake, and a y split to a cold air assembly...not just two air filters right next to each other which is what you were talking about/had a picture of
your thread was about an impala intake that was just a two headed filter. these guys are talking about a hot air intake, and a y split to a cold air assembly...not just two air filters right next to each other which is what you were talking about/had a picture of
09-14-2003, 03:59 PM
#29
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in the end guys, doesn't it all equal out somehow? I would think it does. Here is my theory - WIth the stock intake you get smoothed out power throughout basically the whole RPM range. People say with HAI you do get some more high end power....but you lost low end so...you get me? Would it all equal out at the end?
stock intake with no lag and smoothed out power all throughout RPM = HAI with lag in low RPM but more power in high end = CAI with no lag in the start but less power with high end ??????
This is a cheesy explanation...but think about it... if you start with stock intake and floor it you have more power than does the HAI so you pass him by because it lags way more at start. Then, although you're ahead, the HAI has greater high end potential so it catches up at high RPM. I know it's not 100% equal...but more or less doesn't it all equal out??? It does IMO
stock intake with no lag and smoothed out power all throughout RPM = HAI with lag in low RPM but more power in high end = CAI with no lag in the start but less power with high end ??????
This is a cheesy explanation...but think about it... if you start with stock intake and floor it you have more power than does the HAI so you pass him by because it lags way more at start. Then, although you're ahead, the HAI has greater high end potential so it catches up at high RPM. I know it's not 100% equal...but more or less doesn't it all equal out??? It does IMO
09-14-2003, 04:12 PM
#30
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lol...yes i kinda follow you. but i didnt think the HAI made your lose low end, or a CAI made you lose high end. i just figured they didnt GAIN anything in those specific areas. i dont see how changing the stock air box can make you lose low or high end... isnt it less restrictive no matter what?
09-14-2003, 04:31 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by SXN
lol...yes i kinda follow you. but i didnt think the HAI made your lose low end, or a CAI made you lose high end. i just figured they didnt GAIN anything in those specific areas. i dont see how changing the stock air box can make you lose low or high end... isnt it less restrictive no matter what?
Originally Posted by Dave B
I think people are misunderstanding some things here. A POP intake isn't going to net "highend", a Hybrid "midrange", and the CAI "lowend". Either they help or they don't.
This is what we know, adding any sort of intake will take away lower rpm throttle response. Why? Because the stock intake is pressurized at speed thanks to it's resonators and single intake port above the radiator. This pressurization helps initial throttle response at almost every rpm giving that sensation of "lowend" power because air is consistent and less turbulent. Taking away the pressuization effect of the stock intake takes away the tip-in throttle response, but tends to elevate the power curve at WOT, only. WOT is important here. Part-throttle acceleration is usually a little worse with the POP/hybrids because the air is initially turbulent at tip-in. This can sometimes be felt as bogginess or lagginess. The autos suffer the worst because they have longer gearing and tend to labor in the low rpms longer. The hybrid intake may suffer the worst because it incorporates a midpipe that replaces the stock resonator. The stock resonator acts as an air chamber that equalizes the intake pulses. Remove it and the air is more turbulent and can hurt the overall power curve. There might be a little more peak power gained with a midpipe, but at certain portions of the rpm range, significant power can be lost (as shown in the Frankencar dyno of thier hybrid intake). As most of us know, peak numbers are for bragging, but overall "power under the curve" is what generates the best performance. The midpipe definately increases intake noise by two fold. More noise is often confused with more power because the senses are overwhelmed by the noise during WOT.
The CAI is different from the POP/hybrid in that it uses a longer (~14") intake pipe that places the filter in the fender away from the heat of the engine bay. All CAIs on the market use midpipes also. The CAI's longer intake path seems to reduce the intake turbulance therefore giving back some of the lost stock throttle response and this is why the CAI is commonly associated with restoring "lowend". Some believe the "laminar" air flow is increased therefore throttle respose is increased at all rpms. The problem I see with the CAI is the midpipe. Some have argued (even myself), that the longer intake path restricts upper rpm performance because it's harder for the motor to suck air thru longer piping. After a lot of research, I've noticed higher revving (8000+rpms) motors don't seem to have a problem sucking air thru longer pipes, so why should the lower revving VQ? Anyways, the CAI piping is still shorter than the stock intake snorkel. The problem with the CAI is the midpipe. Replacing the midpipe with the resonator may be the key to sustaining high rpm power because my VQ seems to be very happy revving to 7000rpms.
As far as I know, I'm the only one running a CAI with the resonator. I hope others will try it out too. To me, the VQ feels stronger at all rpms, stonger on the entry rpm at shift, and more consistent even when the motor is baking. This may be the key to having the best performing intake for the 4th gen VQ.
Dave
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This is what we know, adding any sort of intake will take away lower rpm throttle response. Why? Because the stock intake is pressurized at speed thanks to it's resonators and single intake port above the radiator. This pressurization helps initial throttle response at almost every rpm giving that sensation of "lowend" power because air is consistent and less turbulent. Taking away the pressuization effect of the stock intake takes away the tip-in throttle response, but tends to elevate the power curve at WOT, only. WOT is important here. Part-throttle acceleration is usually a little worse with the POP/hybrids because the air is initially turbulent at tip-in. This can sometimes be felt as bogginess or lagginess. The autos suffer the worst because they have longer gearing and tend to labor in the low rpms longer. The hybrid intake may suffer the worst because it incorporates a midpipe that replaces the stock resonator. The stock resonator acts as an air chamber that equalizes the intake pulses. Remove it and the air is more turbulent and can hurt the overall power curve. There might be a little more peak power gained with a midpipe, but at certain portions of the rpm range, significant power can be lost (as shown in the Frankencar dyno of thier hybrid intake). As most of us know, peak numbers are for bragging, but overall "power under the curve" is what generates the best performance. The midpipe definately increases intake noise by two fold. More noise is often confused with more power because the senses are overwhelmed by the noise during WOT.
The CAI is different from the POP/hybrid in that it uses a longer (~14") intake pipe that places the filter in the fender away from the heat of the engine bay. All CAIs on the market use midpipes also. The CAI's longer intake path seems to reduce the intake turbulance therefore giving back some of the lost stock throttle response and this is why the CAI is commonly associated with restoring "lowend". Some believe the "laminar" air flow is increased therefore throttle respose is increased at all rpms. The problem I see with the CAI is the midpipe. Some have argued (even myself), that the longer intake path restricts upper rpm performance because it's harder for the motor to suck air thru longer piping. After a lot of research, I've noticed higher revving (8000+rpms) motors don't seem to have a problem sucking air thru longer pipes, so why should the lower revving VQ? Anyways, the CAI piping is still shorter than the stock intake snorkel. The problem with the CAI is the midpipe. Replacing the midpipe with the resonator may be the key to sustaining high rpm power because my VQ seems to be very happy revving to 7000rpms.
As far as I know, I'm the only one running a CAI with the resonator. I hope others will try it out too. To me, the VQ feels stronger at all rpms, stonger on the entry rpm at shift, and more consistent even when the motor is baking. This may be the key to having the best performing intake for the 4th gen VQ.
Dave
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Black 96 SE 5-speed equipped with MEVI and JWT ECU
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09-14-2003, 06:16 PM
#33
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i just dont get how an aftermarket less restrictive intake would make you lose power... which one (hai, pop, cai, hybrid) would give u a good ammount of power without losing as much? i thought it would be good all around to get a new intake
09-14-2003, 06:29 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by SXN
i just dont get how an aftermarket less restrictive intake would make you lose power... which one (hai, pop, cai, hybrid) would give u a good ammount of power without losing as much? i thought it would be good all around to get a new intake
I'll stick with my stock intake, but just for the sake of it I will do a 1/4 mile with one and without one (i'll bring and CAI and HAI and change it back and forth on the track) and I am 100% confident that my 1/4 mile times will not improve significantly with aftermarket intake, if at all!
09-14-2003, 06:54 PM
#37
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I'm sure some will say that I can't really change the intakes at the track because the ECU needs time to adjust to the changes. Well, that's another thing I don't believe in> the ECU adjusts as is...within seconds of driving without ever stopping the "adjusting". It adjusts every single second and continues to adjust how you drive. I've heard stories that sound completely BS 
people saying that the ECU needs anywhere from 100 to 400 miles to adjust to an intake mod for instance. That's such BS! They say it, yet nobody ever proved it...if anything, it has been proven that ECU adjusts every second anytime you drive. I can relate to what I am saying because from the first day I put my aftermarket intake in and reset my ECU, it worked same from the day I put it on till the day I took it off 4 months later (did like 5k miles during that time). The same day I took the intake off, The stock intake made an immediate difference and the car felt faster just as it does now.
people saying that the ECU needs anywhere from 100 to 400 miles to adjust to an intake mod for instance. That's such BS! They say it, yet nobody ever proved it...if anything, it has been proven that ECU adjusts every second anytime you drive. I can relate to what I am saying because from the first day I put my aftermarket intake in and reset my ECU, it worked same from the day I put it on till the day I took it off 4 months later (did like 5k miles during that time). The same day I took the intake off, The stock intake made an immediate difference and the car felt faster just as it does now.
09-14-2003, 09:59 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by SXN
i just dont get how an aftermarket less restrictive intake would make you lose power...
The only argument I've ever heard that made sense involved the resonance of the plumbing. And that will only significantly help at a single given engine speed.
People argue that having all the volume of the stock plumbing provides a 'well of air to feed from', however I argue that the well can only supply what's coming in...displacement. Unless the elasticity of the plumbing is considerable (
), if your stock intake can only draw X CFM, it can only supply X CFM to the engine. Now, if the argument is that X CFM is more than the engine needs, then it doesn't matter either way. Add a y-pipe, though, and that will change.Or, I'm an idiot...
09-15-2003, 01:37 PM
#40
the reason HAI makes u lose low end power is because, when u start ALOT of air is being pushed back from the radiator and goes directly to the filter so it sucks in hot air and hot air = less hp. vice versa for CAI
and the reason for CAI not having high end is because *i think* the pipes are long, so the cool air has further to travel and hte HAI is shorts so it sucks in teh cool air and gets it to the engine faster
and the reason for CAI not having high end is because *i think* the pipes are long, so the cool air has further to travel and hte HAI is shorts so it sucks in teh cool air and gets it to the engine faster