4x4Max

iTrader: (12)

Ok guys i just started driving manual a few days ago, and i think im developing some bad habits. I need some input on what NOT to do when driving a manual in traffic, shifting, hills, anything. If i burn this clutch, i wont have a car for a while because i wont have $ to replace it, so i need to be extra careful and i need to know what i shouldnt do.

southeast_first

iTrader: (3)

what bad habits do you think you're developing? it would be a lot easier to address your problems than tell you about all the possible mistakes of driving stick.

MaximA StyLeZ

iTrader: (11)

dont grind (for tranny's sake), rev-match when downshifting, as a beginner just shift slow for a while until you get used to it. Get a sense to where your clutch point is. This way you know when to give the right amount of gas, and how much. This will save you from burning clutch. It's ok if you bog, just dont burn. When going up a hill, keep it in a lower gear.

4x4Max

iTrader: (12)

When i'm just starting and i need to get out of a place quickly and there are cars behind me, i sometimes rev it to nearly 3.5k and release the clutch slowly until it grabs. I know thats terrible for it, but how would i get out of a stop quicker without doing that and without burning the rubber? Also in traffic, i find that i ride the clutch a lot. I have it a little below the engaging point, and when i need to move a little, i put it slightly on engaging point and let it slip so the car moves a little bit. My shifts are also really jerky, and i let out the clutch slowly. I have rev matching downshifts pretty much perfected, but the upshifts is what causes problems for me. I just dont want to burn my clutch, but i dont know how to not do it!

southeast_first

iTrader: (3)

1. if you REALLY need to NOT MOVE while on a hill, pull the e-brake, then launch normally and let the ebrake down when you feel the car wanting to move. other than that, you will get better when you learn the friction point of the clutch, which just takes time.

2. when i just have to move A LITTLE, i... don't. i wait for traffic to actually move, except for the case of bad stop-and-go traffic, when there's really no other option. here's a tip, though: whenever the clutch is out, don't touch it unless you're putting it ALL THE WAY back in.

3. here's how i learned how to shift smoothly:

- i usually shift from 1-2 at around 15-20 mph (around 3k rpm in first).
- shift into second (doesn't have to be smooth) and hold that speed that you shifted at (let's say 20).
- look at your rpm. this is where you need to put it when you shift from 1-2 at this speed (about 2k rpm, in this case). repeat for every shift.

you'll learn this as you spend time with the car, but if you consciously look at it, the learning process will go a little faster. also, watch out for shift surge (where your rpm's go up while shifting as a result of getting on the gas too hard or too early). you will be shifting smoothly, but not correctly (sorry, no quick tips on how to avoid it).

just takes time!

DuMKuH

iTrader: (14)

If you don't want to burn the rubber when you need to start quick, just let the clutch pedal(not too fast) your will start to move and press the gas. When you rev the car and let go you clutch slowly that is when you are burning it. Around 1000 RPM is more then enough to start moving in 1st gear.

jackson3837

3.5K is way to much to be launching at under normal circumstances. You can still get away from lights quickly without having to start like you're at a dragstrip. No one is going to rear end you because you got away from the light to slow.

MaxRolla

lol wow i just started driving a stick too. and reading this kinda confused me. but im more of a hands on kinda guy. and im gonna invest in some driving lessons for cheaper insurance and naturally, to drive better. but let me get this one thing down cuz i do it alot and not sure if its right to do.... takin off on a slight slope i try to rev a hair while releasing the clutch untill it grabs.. am i burning my clutch? if iam im probably gonna kick myself thanks

-Tyler

dawalkster

iTrader: (1)

a few things you can do to baby your clutch and tranny-

1. make a habit of keeping your foot off the clutch as much as possible. dont rest your foot on the clutch because then you have a tendency of barely putting pressure on the pedal and slowly but surely eating your clutch away. you have a space for a dead pedal, use it.

2. when coming to a stop shift to neutral and just use all brakes. your brakes are much easier to replace then your tranny, so dont downshift to slow down.

these are just a few things off the top of my head

DuMKuH

iTrader: (14)

Who said that downshifting is bad?If you revmatching before downshift it goes smooth, but yea, if you just put it into second from third thats where its going to hurt......

wikidminds

how bout u give me ur 5 speed....aND ill give u my auto tranny. . .itll make it easier for u

MaxRolla

na even tho im jus learnin, i still love it compared to an auto, even if i cant drive it too well yet. thanks for the tips cuz they helped me out a lil too. any additional ones would help too i guess.

i dont think im too bad. i jus dont wanna get used to doing something and then find out i need a new clutch

-Tyler

MilesA

Sounds like you are afraid of stalling the engine, that's why you rev it up so much?

Try this - go to a big, empty parking lot. Maybe a church or a school outside normal hours. Your goal is to improve your smoothness when launching the car from a standstill. On a flat surface, engine idling at around 800 RPM, let the clutch out slowly, when it begins to engage, press the gas to hold the RPMs steady while you let the clutch out all the way. Now the car will be moving along in first gear at a walking pace. Now clutch in, brakes on, stop. Repeat many times until you are smooth and confident you won't stall the engine.

For your next challenge, find a slight hill in your parking lot. Repeat the first exercise. You may need to rev the engine up slightly (1000-1200 RPM) when the clutch is let out. Repeat until you are smooth. Try a steeper hill. You will find it becomes pretty easy after a little while.

Other tips:
-don't ride the clutch. If you press the clutch in, press it all the way in. If you let the clutch out, be quick about it.
-rev matching applies to upshifts and downshifts, master rev matching
-no need to downshift if you are coming to a stop, use your brakes
-it is fine to downshift so you are in the right gear for your situation (need more power, etc.)
-don't lug the engine, if your RPMs are too low, downshift. You are lugging the engine if your RPMs are too low when you put a load on the engine. Keep RPMs over 2000 when accelerating, climbing hills, etc.
-your power band is 3,500 - 6000 RPM or so, don't be afraid to rev your engine out when you need power. Keep the revs in the power band if you need to. Otherwise, cruising 2,000 -3,000 RPM will give you better economy.
-keep the car in neutral when stopped at stoplights, waiting for someone at the curb, etc.

Have fun with it!

mendon99

iTrader: (15)

the best thing to do is find someone you know locally to help you out and give you tips, its gonna be impossible to remember all this crap you hear on the internet when you're actually in the car. If someone is there with you helping you out, you'd be better off. It takes practice, and you will stall a lot for a little while, and you will get frustrated.. but once you get it you're hooked

Also, the clutch can take plenty of abuse before it craps out.. learning to drive on it def isn't going to kill it.

Donald199

iTrader: (1)

try practicing in a empty parking lot. move your car around and park it without touch the gas pedal but clutch and brake only. This should give you a really good idea how the pedal works.
--Leave the car in 1st gear when you park. but make sure it is in Neutral before you let go of the clutch after the motor started.
--Before you comes to a complete stop , step on the clutch pedal only right before the engine goes below 1K to maximize braking power.
--Shift as fast as possible to prevent rpm lost between shifts to conserve the clutch. Right at the moment you left foot step on the clutch you can already shift, and right when the shifter hits the dead end on the selected gear, the clutch pedal should be on it`s way up already.


--to Maximize your clutch life.
-do NOT park on a slope/hill if you do not think you can get out of the parking spot safely LOL
-do NOT leave the car in Neutral then put it back in gear when the cars at speed.
-do NOT go over 1K when you first let go the clutch.
-do NOT do all kinda crazy full thottle shift lol
-do NOT ride your clutch on a slope to show everyone how you drives a manual.
-do NOT try to burn out/peel off of any kind lol
-try not to pass by downshifting.

-one last thing which is VERY IMPORTANT, put your left foot on the foot rest when you are not shifting. newbs tends to leave their foot on the pedal without noticing

basically the more you touch the pedal the faster it wears out LOL
hope it helps

maximaintheface

iTrader: (1)

it seems like most people when they are just starting out dont push the clutch down far enough. you may or may not do that, but from what ive seen most ppl who just start tend to do that and they grind gears.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (10)

Here's a tip that took me years to learn but I should have learned on day 1. It's for making basic shifts more smooth. When you want to shift, first gently let off the throttle before you push in the clutch. The touch the clutch *to the floor*, shift, and start letting it out. Here's the real trick when letting out the clutch pedal, and putting the throttle back down, never, ever, stop that motion. So the clutch pedal should always be coming up, even if you slow it down some while passing the friction point, don't stop the pedal, trust it to do the job. The same goes for the throttle, keep putting the throttle smoothly down and trust that the clutch will catch smoothly. The clutch will catch very smoothly and very quickly this way. So to recap, simultaneously and steadily let clutch up while putting the throttle down.

Practice it in a parking lot and aim to pull out from a stop at 1000rpm. All the stalling problems occur because 1) the throttle wasn't being put down or 2) you're trying to control the grab of the clutch at the friction point. While you need to control the grab of the clutch at the friction point when pausing on an uphill, you should never do that in normal shifting or driving.

As for the bad habits, yes riding the clutch going down the road is a really bad thing. Your clutch will cook. Also, when pulling out quickly you don't need 3.5k. 2k is plenty high of a grab point - the trick is to engage quickly so you can put down the throttle, not to put down the throttle and let the clutch catch up. So practice the shift technique (clutch steadily up while throttle steadily down) and get good at it so you can pull out that way.

Dave

mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

Greg's M5 Driving School has a bunch of videos that go over how to properly drive a manual trans. He has an M5 but the same principles apply to any car.

http://www.bmwm5.com/greg/school/

Nissan 6

when I go to click on the videos

Not Found

The requested URL /greg/school/ http://www.vidload.de/script/kategorie.php was not found on this server.

BigLou93SE

iTrader: (10)

I love those M5 vids, I am a much better driver after practicing those techiques for the last year.

tavarish

iTrader: (27)

hmm...i always downshift to second at a light, to save on my brakes. it goes pretty smoothly, and i've never had a problem, but apparently from reading on here, it's burning something in my transmission. I know the synchros are at work when i downshift, but i never do anything extreme, and engine braking has helped me on many occassions. Do I have to rev match, or can i ease the clutch to engage in a lower gear when braking?


*Don't mean to hijack the thread, but it is on the topic.

Donald199

iTrader: (1)

As long as your downshift does not let the engine end up in high rpm it will be fine, rev match if you can.

ewuzh

iTrader: (20)

Anytime the tranny and engine speeds are not matched while the clutch is partially engaged, i.e. clutch is slipping, you're rubbing away the friction surface of the clutch disk. Always rev match when downshifting or don't downshift at all.

tavarish

iTrader: (27)

so what's engine braking?

Nissan 6

engine brakine is shifting the car into a lower gear and releasing the clutch and having the foot off the gas

BigLou93SE

iTrader: (10)

When the gear if fully engaged, without any clutch pressure at all, and the engine is slowing you down...not the clutch friction by letting the clutch slip. I hope I can find the link to the M5 driving vids, you will never drive the same again.
Not to say anything offensive, but for someone with a tranny swap under their belts I would have thought you knew how to drive well...
HERE ARE THE DRIVING VIDS: http://www.standardshift.com/videos.html
Study and practice these techniques, they will help you drive better, make it more fun, and save your car.
And I don't think anyone starting out on a 5 speed should attempt these techniques right now, wait to get comfortable with the clutch and being smooth before trying to step your game up.
I personally know how to double clutch, but don't do it a lot. A single clutch, rev-matched downshift has been said to be sufficient due to modern technology's synchros. You'll understand everything after watching these bad boys.

tavarish

iTrader: (27)

thanks, and yea, you learn something new everyday. i learned how to drive stick from a friend on his honda, and he beat it to death, so maybe reserving the clutch wasnt the first priority for him. I'll definitely check it out when i get home tonight. i have only been driving stick for a few months, just like a few others who have done a 5spd swap. I'd like to think i drive fine, comparing myself to a few friends. i just wanted to know what would be the correct way to engine brake.

Thanks,
-Freddy

tavarish

iTrader: (27)

that's what i thought....i'll check out the vids..

BigLou93SE

iTrader: (10)

Believe me, no disrespect intended. Engine braking is really what Nissan 6 said, however the correct way is to rev-match the engine speed to mate with the gear you will select, without any clutch slip. With your technique, the clutch is what's really slowing you down, not the engine, until it's fully disengaged. And you're probably right about you driving better than your friends, but if you study these videos you'll be better at stick than almost everyone out there. They really teach you how to drive well. I was downshifting just like you, letting the clutch slow the car, and really cannot downshift anymore without a rev-match.
Just for thought: letting the clutch to take all of that rubbing and friction is terrible. Just think about how much is going on when that action has enough force to slow your 3000 lb car down that significantly? Ouch...

Nissan 6

yea +1 ^ the engine braking technique I said wears out your clutch and should be done in emergencys and to stop/slow your car use the brakes.....what they were designed to do, as far as Im concerned I would rather pay for some new brake pads than a new clutch

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

...Unless you drive a 4th gen Maxima.

mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

What's more expensive to replace, brake pads or the clutch?

Keep that in mind when trying to rev match coming down to a stop light.

tavarish

iTrader: (27)

Yea definitely, thanks alot, i'm gonna start to rev match now and i'll try and perfect the technique.

yea, i'd rather wear on my brakes than on my clutch.

Now all i need to learn how to do is to heel/toe with the recessed gas pedal

BigLou93SE

iTrader: (10)

Yeah, our recessed gas pedal really owns trying to get a heel toe shift...
I don't know if you're talking about just letting the clutch slip, or when you try to rev-match, mzmtg when you were referring to brake wear versus clutch wear, but at least rev-matching helps cut down on the amount of wear if you do it right. With that said, I really save downshifting for when I need it - I keep my car in the gear I've been in when coming to a stop, and wait until less than 1500 rpms to clutch.

4x4Max

iTrader: (12)

Ok thanks guys, ive done some of these techniques, especially rev matching upshifts, and my shifting is a lot smoother now. My starts are still crappy though, but i can get a good start about 50% of the time. I guess practice makes perfect. Starts on hills are not a problem for me at all now because i use the handbrake to hold the car, rev it to about 2k, and let the clutch out slowly, as soon as i see the hood rising, i gently let go of the handbrake resulting in a pretty smooth start with 0 rolling back. Thanks again for the help!

Now on the other side, my car just started making a really weird noise, sounds almost exactly like a supercharger whine. I'm pretty sure its not the tranny/clutch because it does it when im in neutral standing still, or when i have my foot on the clutch. It seems to be coming form the belt area, but i expected the belts and they look brand new. O well, i guess if it keeps doing it i'll take a closer look at it.

pMak26

[QUOTE=4x4Max]Ok thanks guys, ive done some of these techniques, especially rev matching upshifts, and my shifting is a lot smoother now. My starts are still crappy though, but i can get a good start about 50% of the time. I guess practice makes perfect. Starts on hills are not a problem for me at all now because i use the handbrake to hold the car, rev it to about 2k, and let the clutch out slowly, as soon as i see the hood rising, i gently let go of the handbrake resulting in a pretty smooth start with 0 rolling back [QUOTE]

i do the hand brake thing too, but #1 dont rev that high, the car has enough power with even lower rpm then that to sufficently get moving, even on an incline. #2 dont wait for the car to start surging foward, just slowly release the handbrake as the clutch approaches the engagement point. don't get discouraged when learning to drive stick, it'll be second nature before u know it.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (10)

I don't recommend this beginner to engine brake. It only provides a fraction of the torque needed to stop the car, and so even if it's "saving brakes" it's an insignificant amount. When it's time to stop, push the clutch to the floor and use the brakes. Declutch into neutral whenever it's convenient.

As for the wear on the tranny, engine braking does involve an extra shift, and unless you rev-match it right, it's an extra-high wearing shift. The clutch will wear out sooner, but mostly it provides the driver an opportunity to make a mistake or get distracted.

Dave

MaximaPower

iTrader: (3)

noob here as well....i wanna ask about down shift and rev-matching,
so the steps are:

1st - foot off gas
2nd - clutch in
3rd - foot on gas to rev-match and down shift
4th - clutch out

right?

but do i have to take my foot off the gas (step 1) before i put the clutch in?

tavarish

iTrader: (27)

wow.....after watching those vids...something's very certain...i need a new clutch that grabs alot better. Also, I need to improve my technique if i'm ever gonna do the 1/4 mile thing.

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

I doubt it... he wasn't doing anything that your clutch isn't perfectly capable of. He wasn't powershifting, he was just shifting quickly and waiting to get on the gas until the clutch was out. As long as you can pretty easily break the tires loose in first, your clutch should be fine unless you want to do some hardcore slip launching and still be able to chirp second and/or third. In that case, get an upgraded clutch. Install is expensive though if you don't know how to do it.

The only thing that he does that's easier in an E39 M5 than our "puny" 3L VQs is a smooth takeoff at 1krpm. It's by no means hard in our cars, but that 5L V8 has an incredible amount of inertia, and it's very easy to get the car going with very little throttle input as compared to ours.

it's really up to you, but you should be unloading the engine (and thus the clutch) as you shift out of gear and as you shift into gear (or right before you shift out and shift in, practice will let you do it more smoothly). Eventually and ideally you should just be stabbing the throttle right as you shift out of gear and letting off (when you're at the peak of your rev-match) right as you're shifting back in.

I've also found that single clutch downshifting/rev-matching doesn't work too well with our crappy synchros (maybe it's more just my car than other's?), and if you still find it hard to shift into gear you should look into double clutching.