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Another starting problem-replaced just about everything

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Another starting problem-replaced just about everything

Old 01-28-2006, 06:52 AM
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I'm starting to get the long cranks back.....
My car is something that doesn't need a long crank!
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Old 01-28-2006, 02:00 PM
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You checked the fuel rail pressure already, both at idle and at key on, before start?
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Old 01-28-2006, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SVI30
You checked the fuel rail pressure already, both at idle and at key on, before start?
I did and it was completely normal...IIRC, 43psi with key on and 38psi idle. However, that is pressure created by the fuel pump...what the FPR does with that, I don't know.
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Old 01-28-2006, 09:11 PM
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Starting is an open loop operation. So the ECM doesn't use a lot of the sensor inputs for its operation.

When you crank and doesn't start, are there a lot of gas smell?
When it doesn't start, do you turn the key back to off then on again?
What does the spark plugs look like?
Can you hear each injector click during cranking?
No codes stored otherwise?
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Old 01-29-2006, 02:33 AM
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Don't know about Crazy, but I am done with sensors. I am thinking spark is good and am rethinking fuel issues. I do not smell gas at startup at all. The plugs I pulled had some gas contamination but I had just started up the car a few times right before...otherwise they looked fine. I can hear the injectors clicking at idle but can't hear it about the cranking during startup. Injector cleaners didn't appear to be helpful. Sadly, no codes--besides, most of the sensors were replaced.

I may end up just swapping the FPR--will report back in a week.
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Old 01-29-2006, 06:41 AM
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I have no codes and the injectors are clicking. I flooded the car and had gas in the oil earlier and had to change the oil. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge yet but I'm going to assume it's the starter and go from there. I found one out of a 01 at a junk yard online for $25, but the place is not open during the weekend. This starter will have 11 teeth instead of 10 so if it doesn't fit I can just swap the internal parts. I've been reading up on the starter and the 95- 01 are compatible. I'll have it changed as soon as I can this week and report back.

I have no sensors left to replace and the FPR is not electronic, it's vacum operated. It connects with that little hose the plugs into the air intake just past the MAF.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:44 PM
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If there are no gas smell and no gas wetting on the plugs, then fuel, injectors should be a pontential main cause.

Given that you confirmed good fuel rail pressure, then the injector circuit should be checked. Since the ECM switch GND, and each injector has it's own circuit for that, check the 12V circuit. This is switched by the ignition switch and wired common to all the injectors. So you should take a look at it all the way from the key switch to the injectors. A quick way is to splice a 12 gauge wire from the battery to the injector 12V circuit. If it can start ok like that, then trace everything in that circuit.

The ignition switch has separate poles for Starter and Injectors. Since injectors are working in Run mode, what you will be looking for is fraying wires. The main place will be that bend from the firewall to the engine where it flexes as the motor moves.
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:29 AM
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I found the updated 11 tooth starter off of an 01 - part #233002Y900R is clearly written on it. I'm gonna put it in today and see what happens.
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Old 01-31-2006, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by crazy97
I found the updated 11 tooth starter off of an 01 - part #233002Y900R is clearly written on it. I'm gonna put it in today and see what happens.
Yeah, I found one on ebay and hopefully will get it this week sometime.
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:13 AM
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Bad news. Put the starter in and it does then same thing. It does start a little better but not quite normal just yet. It seems to start almost normal when I turn the key to on for a few seconds and punch the gas once then start the car. I did notice quite a bit of green corrosion on the negitive battery cable where it runs below the battery.

Next on the list:

-Check fuel pressure.
-Replace battery cables. They look bad anyway.

I am being
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:50 PM
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I hear you bro. Sadly for me, I replaced all my battery cables. Walmart has some nice pre-terminated heavy gauge battery cable--you just have to get the right lengths: battery to alternator, battery to body, body to engine. Got me a nice battery terminal there too with wing nut to secure the new cables.

BTW, the fuel pressure tester I got had some Gm connector on it. I had to cut it off and put in a brass T-piece to measure fuel line pressure right after thefuel filter. You will need some hose, a brass fitting to connect to the OE line and some clamps.

I don't have high hopes for the new starter but hopefully the FPR will work for me. Had a lot of starting trouble today...lots of stutters, prolonged cranks, backfiring. Quite embarrassing when people are around!
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Old 01-31-2006, 02:00 PM
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im telling ya i check the FPR.. the symptoms i had with my car were ..
when i strted it in the moringin it would turn on for a second stutter and die
i had to put the gas pedal to teh floor and crank the motor...
i had black smoke coming out of the tail pipe when it finally started...
then i pulled the hose that connected to the intake mainfold and gas spilled out and i knew rigth away what the problem was...
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Old 01-31-2006, 04:45 PM
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I will be ecstatic if the new FPR fixes things. Pinnacle had a good price and unlike some of the other discount Nissan dealers, they ship promptly.
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:15 AM
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98 max and I have started getting these problems. I put STP fuel injector/carberator cleaner into my gas tank yesterday and I already noticed a change. Before when I tried to start the car it would cough out and I had to pump the gas pedal. When I did this I noticed the car rpm at 4 little notches above 1000rpm. A normal start put the car about 1 notch over 500rpm (or one notch over half way to 1000).

With the STP in this morning, when it was about 30 degrees the car did some sort of over crank, where it makes that noise like someone turned the key while the car was already started, then it proceded to sputter and die out like everyone has described. Again I had to pump the gas pedel. I also need to mention I turned the key to full on for almost a minute before turning to start position.

What does FPR stand for. It's not one of the abrevaitions listed on the Maxima FAQ.
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Old 02-01-2006, 09:52 AM
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FPR- Fuel Pressure Regulator.

Me and mishmosh are having trouble with the starting of the engine, once it runs, it will stay running. I wish it would be as easy as some injector cleaner. Maybe I'll try a little, what the hay, I've done everything else.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by crazy97
FPR- Fuel Pressure Regulator.

Me and mishmosh are having trouble with the starting of the engine, once it runs, it will stay running. I wish it would be as easy as some injector cleaner. Maybe I'll try a little, what the hay, I've done everything else.
Well I haven't done anything else as of yet. I'm going to clean the TB today. But like you once it gets running I don't have a single problem. Only if it's been sitting a while. My gas mileage is fine, no check engine, no nothing, just the damn starting.

To clarify though it seems the fuel cleaner actually made the problem more pronounced, as in it does more clunking and sputtering now when I start. Because the cleaner had that effect I'm inclined to believe it HAS to do with my fuel lines or maybe the FPR. Or something else related to all that. I still don't understand how it all works.

I'm dying to hook it up to a computer just to see these "hidden" codes Nissan thought would be fun to put in, you know the ones that don't turn the check light on, but I can't afford one right now. Anyone in Richmond, Va wanna let me use their's?
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:10 PM
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I am wondering if my problem is actually too much fuel (leaky injectors) instead of too little (FPR, fuel pump). Before the starting woes, I never really heard much backfiring during starts. Now I hear it maybe 20% of my starts. I'm assuming that it's unspent fuel being burnt off causing that. With prolonged cranking, it may be normal to hear it but sometimes I get it right after the starter has made it's first crank--which is to say a half second after turning the key. Then again, if I'm running rich, you would think fuel mileage would suffer!

Crazy, not sure if it's worthwhile testing out the fuel line pressure--you would think if it were low, you'd have drivability issues as well. Now I'm not so bullish on the FPR idea, for the same reason, but will certainly report back once it is installed.

Maybe it's something mechanical. Like (for whatever reason), the flywheel is hard to turn. I don't think it's related to my clutch install either as I think I started to have issues before. I know it's not cold related (although I am having a lot of symptoms of late) because when winter first arrived, I though things actually got better!

If I hadn't invested so much time already and did so many parts change-outs, I would definitely recommend anyone else to see the dealer once basic maintenance procedures (fuel filter changed, spark plugs checked, TB/IACV cleaned, ECTS checked, etc) did not solve the problem.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:32 AM
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MishMosh,

Did you check out the injector 12V wiring? To check it out, just add a pretty thick wire from the battery to one of the injectors, 12V side, with an insolation displacement (crimp) connector. Make sure you got the 12V side and not the GND side.
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Old 02-02-2006, 06:01 AM
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OK, now can you explain what ECTS stands for? Also does the FPR have to be done in shop since it involves the fuel line? I have a nasty warning in my Hayes manual about it....

Any good how-to's on cleaning the IACV? Also why are Bosch plat. 4's looked down on so much? I'm going to price starters today since I might as well think about that while I've got all the stuff off for cleaning the TB.
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Old 02-02-2006, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Juicey
OK, now can you explain what ECTS stands for? Also does the FPR have to be done in shop since it involves the fuel line? I have a nasty warning in my Hayes manual about it....

Any good how-to's on cleaning the IACV? Also why are Bosch plat. 4's looked down on so much? I'm going to price starters today since I might as well think about that while I've got all the stuff off for cleaning the TB.
ECTS= Engine Coolant Temp. Sensor

I did order a fuel pressure regulator, should be here in a few days. The FPR should be about the same dificulty as the fuel filter. This can be done by an individual, just make sure the engine is cool and the battery is disconnected I guess. I'm just worried about getting those two philips screws loose, I may have to unbolt the TB if I can't get a screwdriver in there.

Bosch sucks. I used to put those in a jeep and they did nothing good, shaky idle to.

IACV - I took mine apart, really easy, just be carefull to not strip the phillips screws on it. I actually cranked on them the oppisite way(tightening them) to break them loose and then loosened them. When I took my IACV apart, I found nothing dirty in there.
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Old 02-02-2006, 06:36 AM
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Anyone getting a starter, get the 11 tooth one part #233002Y900R about $200 new from an online dealer like pinicle nissan. Otherwise find an 00 or 01 from a junkyard about $50 or so. They will fit our 4th gen.

http://www.car-part.com/index.htm for lists of parts at local junkyards. Remember to select the area you are in.
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:00 AM
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Mishmosh and/or crazy97 have either of you considered that engine wiring harness that Nissan had quoted at $2000 (just for the part) ? I remember seeing a post about that and from the way you guys have been replacing parts I'm afraid that's going to be my problem. Not that all cars are alike but I would think since this seems to be a fairly widespread problem that maybe it's this electrical thing.

I'm just killing myself thinking about all this. God I hope cleaning the TB/IACS and perhaps replacing the ECTS works! It's probably time to clean my K&N air filter too. I'm just going to have to sit here and worry until I have time to do it this Saturday.

BTW on a positive note this morning when it was about 30-40 degrees it didn't have such a hard time starting. It almost did but then it kicked in right before I went to put my foot down. It's supposed to be 60 today so I'll see if warm weather changes anything. That fuel injector cleaner seems to be doing something good.
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Juicey
Mishmosh and/or crazy97 have either of you considered that engine wiring harness that Nissan had quoted at $2000 (just for the part) ? I remember seeing a post about that and from the way you guys have been replacing parts I'm afraid that's going to be my problem. Not that all cars are alike but I would think since this seems to be a fairly widespread problem that maybe it's this electrical thing.

I'm just killing myself thinking about all this. God I hope cleaning the TB/IACS and perhaps replacing the ECTS works! It's probably time to clean my K&N air filter too. I'm just going to have to sit here and worry until I have time to do it this Saturday.

BTW on a positive note this morning when it was about 30-40 degrees it didn't have such a hard time starting. It almost did but then it kicked in right before I went to put my foot down. It's supposed to be 60 today so I'll see if warm weather changes anything. That fuel injector cleaner seems to be doing something good.
Before I would spend that kind of money, I would take a chance on $100 wiring harness from a junkyard.
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SVI30
MishMosh,

Did you check out the injector 12V wiring? To check it out, just add a pretty thick wire from the battery to one of the injectors, 12V side, with an insolation displacement (crimp) connector. Make sure you got the 12V side and not the GND side.
Thanks SVI30. I didn't get around too it--I am not sure I am up for the task. If there was a proble with the injector wiring, wouldn't I have problems when while the car is running?
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:49 PM
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I think it may be the FPR because when the car starts up the rpms jump up like I was giving it gas.

Mishmosh, the new starter has really helped shorten my long cranking sessions. You said you ordered one didn't you? The 11 tooth one is dynomite! If I can never solve this problem, now with the quicker starts I can deal with it. I'd say it's cranking twice as long as normal most of the time - if not normal sometimes.
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Old 02-02-2006, 04:26 PM
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I think the rpms are higher when the car is cold, no? Like around 1500-2000rpm for a little while?

Yeah, I got the starter off ebay but have yet to receive it. FPR should be here tomorrow. Will put it in Saturday. Fingers are crossed...
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mishmosh
Thanks SVI30. I didn't get around too it--I am not sure I am up for the task. If there was a proble with the injector wiring, wouldn't I have problems when while the car is running?
Stranded wires fail by breaking each individual strand. So the wire is still working but a 12 gauge wire is working more like an 18 gauge wire.

While starting, the ECM uses simultaneous mode instead of sequential mode. This means all 6 injectors are fired instead of one at a time. This is when a impaired wire would not work right. The GND wire is controled individually by the ECM. But the 12V is just one wire in the harness coming from the ignition switch.

I am on the road so cannot give you a page number. But in the FSM engine section, somewhere on the front of the section, you can see how the injectors are hooked up.
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Old 02-03-2006, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SVI30
Stranded wires fail by breaking each individual strand. So the wire is still working but a 12 gauge wire is working more like an 18 gauge wire.

While starting, the ECM uses simultaneous mode instead of sequential mode. This means all 6 injectors are fired instead of one at a time. This is when a impaired wire would not work right. The GND wire is controled individually by the ECM. But the 12V is just one wire in the harness coming from the ignition switch.

I am on the road so cannot give you a page number. But in the FSM engine section, somewhere on the front of the section, you can see how the injectors are hooked up.
If the problem is electrical I am clueless and will just have to take it in. I'd love to get a FSM but those things are like $89.00+!
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Old 02-03-2006, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Juicey
If the problem is electrical I am clueless and will just have to take it in. I'd love to get a FSM but those things are like $89.00+!
There are FSM download postings somewhere on this site. No need to buy one, just download it.
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Old 02-03-2006, 08:51 AM
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Anyone know where to download it from because I can't find it. Thanks!

EDIT: Never mind.....

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=399415
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Old 02-03-2006, 09:38 PM
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Update

SO FAR SO GOOD!

Installed the FPR and '00 starter (11 tooth) today. Was actually going to install just the FPR but with the intake in the way, I could not get enough leverage to loosen the FPR screws (they were starting to strip), and since the starter was now easily accessible, I changed it.

I did notice that after pulling the fuel pump fuse to relieve fuel line pressure, that the car would crank and crank without stuttering/pausing. I really think now that those stutters were misfires just as njmodi suggested. The cranking seemed pretty solid with the 10 tooth so I don't think the 11 tooth made things better necessarily, although you can hear it crank a little faster.

Once the FPR and '00 were in, the majority of starts today were very fast. It seemed the starter made one or two cranks and the engine was fired up! A few I counted maybe 3-4 cranks but still, no stutters. I don't want to jinx myself and call it a success just yet but given that I had been having problems with most starts of late, I have to say this is a night and day improvement. Also, and I could be imagining this, the car seemed to run subtley smoother afterward. Will follow up when I get a lot more starts in.

Hope you have similar results Crazy.
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Old 02-03-2006, 09:44 PM
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did you check for start signal?
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mishmosh
SO FAR SO GOOD!

Installed the FPR and '00 starter (11 tooth) today. Was actually going to install just the FPR but with the intake in the way, I could not get enough leverage to loosen the FPR screws (they were starting to strip), and since the starter was now easily accessible, I changed it.

I did notice that after pulling the fuel pump fuse to relieve fuel line pressure, that the car would crank and crank without stuttering/pausing. I really think now that those stutters were misfires just as njmodi suggested. The cranking seemed pretty solid with the 10 tooth so I don't think the 11 tooth made things better necessarily, although you can hear it crank a little faster.

Once the FPR and '00 were in, the majority of starts today were very fast. It seemed the starter made one or two cranks and the engine was fired up! A few I counted maybe 3-4 cranks but still, no stutters. I don't want to jinx myself and call it a success just yet but given that I had been having problems with most starts of late, I have to say this is a night and day improvement. Also, and I could be imagining this, the car seemed to run subtley smoother afterward. Will follow up when I get a lot more starts in.

Hope you have similar results Crazy.

Glad to hear it.
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Old 02-03-2006, 11:12 PM
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Tenacity paid off.
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Old 02-04-2006, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mishmosh
SO FAR SO GOOD!

Installed the FPR and '00 starter (11 tooth) today. Was actually going to install just the FPR but with the intake in the way, I could not get enough leverage to loosen the FPR screws (they were starting to strip), and since the starter was now easily accessible, I changed it.

I did notice that after pulling the fuel pump fuse to relieve fuel line pressure, that the car would crank and crank without stuttering/pausing. I really think now that those stutters were misfires just as njmodi suggested. The cranking seemed pretty solid with the 10 tooth so I don't think the 11 tooth made things better necessarily, although you can hear it crank a little faster.

Once the FPR and '00 were in, the majority of starts today were very fast. It seemed the starter made one or two cranks and the engine was fired up! A few I counted maybe 3-4 cranks but still, no stutters. I don't want to jinx myself and call it a success just yet but given that I had been having problems with most starts of late, I have to say this is a night and day improvement. Also, and I could be imagining this, the car seemed to run subtley smoother afterward. Will follow up when I get a lot more starts in.

Hope you have similar results Crazy.

Right on man!! Keep us updated! I plan on replacing my starter today if it stops raining. If that doesn't work I'll definately look into the FPR. I got my battery tested while buying the starter and they said it might need to be replaced but that could just be "salesman talk".

What's the biggest battery I can put in my 98 Max? Does a bigger battery help? I would think the obvious answer would be yes?
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Old 02-04-2006, 07:44 AM
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That's great! Good to hear it! I actually thought about taking out the fuel pump fuse to see what happens. I will just replace the fpr when it comes in the mail. I have noticed some more power lately after replacing all of these sensors or maybe it's in my head. The 11 tooth starter is just awsome, it makes the problem so much easier to deal with.
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Old 02-04-2006, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Juicey
Right on man!! Keep us updated! I plan on replacing my starter today if it stops raining. If that doesn't work I'll definately look into the FPR. I got my battery tested while buying the starter and they said it might need to be replaced but that could just be "salesman talk".

What's the biggest battery I can put in my 98 Max? Does a bigger battery help? I would think the obvious answer would be yes?
How old is it? If it's more than 4 years old I would dump it. Better to be safe than stranded, I've seen batteries make engines do all sorts of strange things when they go bad. I've always gone to sears and used their Die Hards. I just go in there and they replace it with what they recommend. They are a little more expensive but less hassle in the long run. Wall Mart is cheaper and also has a good warrenty on there batteries too, but i don't know much about Wall Mart.
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Old 02-04-2006, 08:08 AM
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Well, I guess I spoke too soon... The stuttering starts were back today. Certainly not as bad as they were but definitely back. I guess I'll look into the wiring during the coming weeks before I pack things in. Very frustrating!
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Old 02-04-2006, 08:35 AM
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Aaaaahhhhh! Nooooooooo!!!!!
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Old 02-04-2006, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mishmosh
Well, I guess I spoke too soon... The stuttering starts were back today. Certainly not as bad as they were but definitely back. I guess I'll look into the wiring during the coming weeks before I pack things in. Very frustrating!
It would have to be electrical wouldn't it. Man that is annoying! At least it's improved somewhat and you know at least you've got some new parts in your car so when it does start well you should be good for a long time.
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