I've not said anything about this before, but it's starting to bug me. Maximas are set up from the factory to understeer. Because some safety nut, thinks understeering is safer than oversteering, understeering is easier to control for the average driver. I'm however of the mind set, that a neutral handling car is easier to control, because its doing what I tell it to do, not what its set up to do(understeer). Which does make it more predictable for the average street driver, because there is nothing to predict, its going to understeer. Now if that makes any sense. Here comes the point of my story. Putting a FSTB on does stiffen the car's chassis, at the sacrafice of additional understeer! This stiffer chassis may improve intial turn-in response, but it's actually hurting the ultimate grip. The way to make the car more neutral in it handling characteristics, is to stiffen the rear. So adding a RSTB, then a stiffer rear sway bar first, would be a start at getting a higher ultimate grip. Then if it still understeers, you will need to either remove the front sway bar completely or put on a softer one. For example, if you have an SE, maybe putting on a GXE, or GLE front swaybar would improve the overall handling of the car. Stiffer springs & shocks in the rear would also help. Be careful though, because to much stiffness in the rear, could cause too much oversteer. You must do it in increments, to suite your driving style. The last thing we need is a bunch of maximas in the ditches around on and off ramps, because the rear end suddenly snapped loose, and the inexperience behind the wheel didn't expect it, and didn't know how to correct it. Which buy the way is to flat foot the throttle, to pull the rear back in line. Yes, just like in the Maxima commercials, where its in that cool 4 wheel drift. If your having squeeling tires around corners, that means either the front tires are rolling over, or you left your Blizzaks on. This too can be adjusted, buy putting in some front negative camber into your alignment settings. Our cars don't have adjustable camber, so cam bolts or (crash bolts) must be used in the lower strut mount to get the necessary camber you desire. So don't fall for the fancy advertising and go buy into everything thats on the market.

 

Emm Let me understand you... b/c you want to prevent understeer.. instead of doing the right thing, which I will talk about later and which you obviously ignored, you will forget an opportunity to make your car better(ie stiff)??? Please explain to me how that makes sense?

The correct way to resolve this issue is to get the FSTB and a rear anti sway bar from Stillen or Addco. FYI, RSTB will no do much if anything to help correct understeer. As a matter of a fact, the RSTB in the Maxima doesn't do much at all. The rear deck serves as a chassis reinforcement for the unibody.

Yes too much oversteer is bad... it's dangerous in some cases. But your logic of trying to "fix" the understeer by not using a FSTB does not make much sense to me. The FSTB is needed in the maxima... b/c the maxima chassis is frankly not stiff enough. Every little bit helps...

So if you are reading this and wondering what you should do... get a FSTB and a RSB(that's Rear Sway Bar).

-Shing

 

I agree with you, however with the rear sway bar and RSTB there will be more oversteer. The FSTB balances it out, but more it helps the car track. When the strut towers stretch in the car's tracking goes off and since we steer with the front wheels and power the front wheels, tracking is VERY important. It's the front sway bar that you DON'T want.

 

Well, that is my experience with "race cars." Most should hold true with the Maxima as well. Maybe not to the same extreme, but the concept is the same. Check out the book "How to make your car handle" I can't think of the author, and it's at work in my office right now so I can't check. It should be listed at Amazon. Also, check out the http://www.tirerack.com its listed in there somewhere in their motorsports section. I have built several race cars and have proven most all of this. Understeer, stiffen rear. Oversteer stiffen front. I haven't tried any of this on my Maxima, mine's stock. It's my daily driver. My race cars will tell the tale. BTW, at one of the track events, they had a day to run your support/tow vehicles around the track. My maxima had enough stiffness and grip that it was lifting the inside rear wheels just like on the the compact cars.

 

From my understanding the point of the FSTB is to prevent unwanted camber change due to chassis flex. This keeps more of the tire on the ground, which should reduce understeer. I can't believe that tuners like Dinan (BMW) would use an FSTB in order to make a car understeer.

 

brandonj is right about the camber correcting, that's what I was saying about tracking.

 

Bmw uses them because they are rear wheel drive. Different animal to set up. In a RWD, you what the front stiff. RWD cars tend to oversteer easier,(not all RWD, but most.) And again, front camber can be corrected using the cam bolts I mentioned earlier, rather than stiffening the front.

 

Well, you can thoerize all you want, but the FSTB makes a noticeable impact. What I felt (and I've taken it off and on a few times after the initial install to reconfirm) is that while ultimate grip is not improved at all, the feel near the limit is much better. Understeer is reduced and things don't feel as floaty and numb near the edge. No, this isn't a measurement or anything, just what I feel, but it's good enough for me.

 

First principles: all the wheels have to be held in proper relative alignment, and a flexing chassis won't do this. The FSTB corrects the inherent flex problem by making the structure more rigid. Most suspension changes (higher spring weights, dampers, sway bars, etc.) are band aid fixes for flexing chassis. This is why most car makers keep working on making the cars stiffer. This way you can get a car that goes around corners fast, and still have the suspension soft enough for a good ride. Getting the flex out also makes the care much easier to control when it's at the limit. Structural stiffness becomes more important when "sticker" tires are used, because greater loads are placed on the structure. Another thing that should be remembered is that most race tracks are a lot smother than public roads. Those dips and bumps really upset things when driving a flexi-flyer. Strut braces are the best things to start with because they make the care more predictable to drive.

 

rsb reduces grip in cornering but makes more safer feel imo

 

No, it does not reduce grip but reduce sway, the leaning over motion when you make a turn. That's why they call it a sway bar, it may be for the front or rear.

 

ok. i thought a rsb kept the rear wheels planned vs. lifting
sacrifing some grip for reduced sway.

 

I've been able to kick my rear end out on a couple of occassions. I've got a FSTB, RSTB, RSB, lowering springs, and 235/45 tires. I don't think I've added any understeer. My car is very neutral for a heavy nosed FWD sedan. It's not the best handling car I've ever driven, but it is one of the better ones. It out handles my old 94 Z28.

Dave

 

About 4 weeks ago I put a FSTB on a 96 Max (25,000 mi). I would be hard pressed to say it made any difference at slow city driving speeds. On the HWY I do feel a much better lane change responce. With "spirited" city driveing and Hwy ramp driveing the car can be brought right up to its limits. Yes, I can actually feel the limits for the first time. To me the tires make the biggest difference. I have 225/45 ZR 17 BF Goodrich CompT/A KD dry weather, supper soft rubber, semi slicks (okay not that practical but the price was good). They can rocket (no wheel spin)off a stop light, break in very short distances and turn at great high speed. Adding the FSTB made 90 degree corners so much more fun. My tire were new at the start of the summer and have about 3000 miles on them. They need to be rotated very soon. Last night on a spirited 90 corner, catching a amber light, the front broke loose for the fist time. I slid about 2 feet (understeer) hit the gas hard and pulled out. (any other suggestions?) Curb was maybe another 2 feet and coming up fast. Without the FSTB I would never have attempted the corner at that speed. However with the FSTB when things break loose curbs come up very fast to bite your car. I think the FSTB is like a 4 wheel drive "It gets you in deeper faster". If you are going to go in deep then you better have the rest of the system working well. (so I need to get a RSB soon) Humm time to put on the winter tires and garage the beast.

Ross D. Knight

96 Maxima
Just a 4 door family sedan.

86 Peugeot STI (My work horse & winter car)
82 Suzuki GS650G (free parking & 4$/week in gas)

 

 

RSB can make the car feel either more neutral or even to make it feel like oversteer (if you have an adjustable RSB). The effects of an RSB can really be noticed in what is called the emergency lane changes. That's when you pull the car quickly from lane to lane. The RSB will let you change lanes much faster. On the course that means the car will do better on s curves.

FSTB stiffens the frame in the front. This will help dive into turns at a faster rate of speed without the frame of the car flexing.

RSTB boxes in the rear when used with a RSB. This is usually added last, therefore hard to feel its effects.

Adding the FSTB in our max's will not create oversteer. It merely stiffens the frame for better control/feel in turns. I don't think some nut decided to make FWD cars understeer because it's easier to control. That is just inherent of front engine front wheel drive cars. If it was a choice, they would make the cars neutral. Since that is impossible in a front wheel drive car, we add parts to help out, like the RSB tower braces.

 

depending how you set it up. Almost 99% of all car makers design understeer into a car's suspension(especially a grandma car like the Maxima) because it's much easier to control a understeer than a oversteer.

 

Are you saying understeer is easier to control than a neutral feeling car??? I'm not saying you can't make FWD car oversteer. That is easy to do if you put a 2" RSB and stiffen the hell out the rear.

 

I'm say the following:

""I don't think some nut decided to make FWD cars understeer because it's easier to control.""

This is exactly what 99% of car makers do. Design understeer into their suspensions, especially in FWD.

""If it was a choice, they would make the cars neutral.""

No, they design exactly what they want into the suspension. ie.. understeer. It is inherently more safe than either oversteer and neutral. Now I didn't say what's better for handling.

""Since that is impossible in a front wheel drive car, we add parts to help out, like the RSB tower braces. """

Again you can make a FWD car, oversteer, understeer, neutral. Did you just contradict yourself?

 

That's what I was trying to get across when I started this thread. Designers do build understeer into the design on purpose. Stiffening the front adds to that design. So by adding strength in front, that means you must stiffen the rear that much more, to get the car neutral. Not that the FSTB is a bad thing, it just shouldn't be the 1st thing. The 1st things should be done in the rear to improve handling at 10/10ths of the limit. As I mentioned earlier FSTB do improve intial turn in response up to, lets say 6/10ths which in turn does make the car feel better in day to day driving, thus increasing drivers confidence until closer to 10/10ths then suddenly it's back to it old habits, understeer. I have proven this on a Honda Accord that I built for Improved Touring (IT) road racing. Pyrometer measurements of the outer blocks of the tire where 10-12 degrees hotter with the FSTB on, than without. This says that the car is understeering more. BTW this is not my theory, I was only testing the theory myself, because I didn't believe it either. Of course I didn't what to believe it, because I just spent $90 on my FSTB! Only to take it back off, or stiffen up the rear some more, and I was about out of stiffness.

 

I have an FSTB and adding the coilovers made the car more nuetral than I ever thought possible. It's slick to go around the track in a FWD car and do a nice 4 wheel drift. About the only time the front end pushes out anymore is when I'm in the rain, turning, at full throttle. me likey

 

I agree. I have Eibach/Tokico w/ a FSTB. The car handles better but it still understeers close to the limits. Definately needs a rsb. But IMHO, the FSTB does more for stiffening the chassis than anything else. I mean it makes the front end's suspension geometry more consistant though hard corners. I noticed when I installed the FSTB, I had alot less steering corrections during even long sweepers. I suspect w/ the VE30DE's heavy and large engine + the large box the engine bay has to accomdate it, it creates alot of unnecessary flexing which causes alot of wierd camber, caster, toe changes during a turn.

 

But I still don't understand why you would chose to not use the FSTB, which we know has a lot of benifit, instead of getting a RSB?

-Shing

 

I have got several pictures of some of my cars pulling incredible amounts of G's, in almost completely stock form, only messing with alignment settings and removing front swaybars, and stiffening rears. You gotta see some of these. If you want, sent me an email, I'll send them to you.

 

I'm not contradicting myself. I am stating that FWD cars do understeer. That is the nature of FWD cars. If they did want to make a car oversteer they can, but that would require extra parts & designing time...

Just curious though,Why is understeer better than neutral?

 

FWD will understeer. When you have the engine and drivetrain laid out across the front of the car and 60%+ of the weight of the car is over the front tires, the car will push and understeer.

If front strut tower braces increased understeer, then why does the "world's best handling FWD car" have a FSTB (Integra Type R). The ITR nearly runs circles around nearly every RWD muscle car on the market and nearly hangs on with the likes of the C5 Vette and such. If Acura didn't think the FSTB was necessary, then they wouldn't have put it on their "bare-bones" SCCA factory racer.

Dave

 

[/I][/QUOTE]
I'm not contradicting myself. I am stating that FWD cars do understeer. That is the nature of FWD cars. If they did want to make a car oversteer they can, but that would require extra parts & designing time... [/I][/QUOTE]

Not really, if car makers wanted to design the car to handle neutral from the get go, it probably would not require additional time or cost.
[/I][/QUOTE]
Just curious though,Why is understeer better than neutral? [/I][/QUOTE]

Exactly where did I say understeer was "better"?? In emergency situations, where the car is sliding, would you want your mom to have to deal w/ an oversteering, neutral or understeering car?? A car that will start to understeer first when slipping occurs, will in 99% of time NOT DO A 180. That is why car makers design understeer in cars. RWD or FWD. What answer are you searching for? For a guy who races, this should be redundant infomation?

 

Pull out the rear seat. Then unbolt the thin piece of metal which seperates the trunk from the cabin. Next cover this in sound deadening material of your choice. This performs two functions. It absorbs vibrations and it makes the thin gauge steal thicker-this is why it aids in stiffening the rear. Then lastly before reinstalling - wrap this sucker in a mixture of your choice 1)fiberglass, 2)kevlar or 3)carbon fiber and an epoxy base resin. When you are done this thin gauge steel will be magnitudes stiffer and it only costs about a pint of resin and the fabric you chose.

 

"If Acura didn't think the FSTB was necessary, then they wouldn't have put it on their "bare-bones" SCCA factory racer."

Obviously they set-up the rest of the car to accommodate. Probably as simple as a fat RSB and a little more aggressive alignment settings. BTW, the Honda Predule VTEC was the best handling FWD car prior to the Type R, and it didn't have a FSTB. I used to own this car, as my racecar. It was a great car to build, Honda left so much more "hidden potentional" in this car. It was just awesome to uncover its secret set-up. However, the Type R, does not have that same level of hidden potential, they did more right from the get go. The M3 is the best handling RWD car, and it too understeers like a PIG! But some tinkering, and it become a monster!