I recenty got the chance to drive my brothers new 530i BMW. The power was pretty good but what impressed me the most was the handling. I want to know what has to be done to make my 97se handle like that??

 

Rear wheel drive, better weight distribution, and rear indepent suspension.

But since most of that can't happen... you're best bet are some Eibachs and a set of good aftermarket performance struts. And no, Tokicos are not good struts. Oh don't forget the *manditory* rear sway bar.

-Shing

 

Why are Tokicos not good???

Are your talking original equipment?? or the after-market tokicos??

DW

 

Shingles, I'm curious as to why you said one of the reasons why the BMW handles better is because of rear independent suspension and that the rear sway bar is mandatory for the max? Isn't independent suspension better because one side of the wheel can corresponds to bumps independently of the other wheel on the opposite side? If so then the sway bar is defeating this advantage by purposely linking movement of one side of the suspension to the other. By doing this mod on the Max wouldn't we be going further away from what the rear independent suspension system on the BMW could have offer? I do see the advantage in sway bar but only on smooth surface for cornering but I don't see much advantage of the BMW rear ind. sus. over our Max beam axle in that SAME environment. Then again I could be totally off here.

 

The rear sway bar is needed becuase Nissan designed in too much understeer from the factory.

RSB in independ. rear suspensions do even come close to negating the function of that design.

Drive a beam suspension though a bumpy corner fast than drive that same road w/ a car that has independant rear suspension and most of these questions will be answered.

 

Yup I do know how the RSB function and u're right it can be adjusted to reduce understeer or even oversteer.

Do or Don't? If don't then how different is the RSB mount on the beam versus the ind. sus. design? I'm not saying u're wrong I just want to learn what separate the two. As you can see I'm into handling very much and would like to understand as much as possible about the physics behind it all.

Yes the rear ind. sus. is great when it comes to bumpy road but I was comparing the beam type to it on the same SMOOTH corner which I don't think there would be much of a difference.

 

The sway bars do not stop the rear wheels from acting indepdently on a IRS setup, it reduces it. But seel the thing about it is that an IRS setup, with or without rsb, the camber of the other wheel does not change(as much as beam) when one is compressed.

The RSB for the maxima does two things: 1) reduce understeer and 2) reduce the yaw movements in the stock suspension. the way the system is setup in the maxima allows for too much side to side movement in the rear. Taking a fast uneven sweeper will allow you to see thsi behavior in the stock maxima. The RSB reduces this dramtically. Frankly I would not be willing to drive my maxima fast in a sweeper without one... it gets too hairy.

-Shing

 

To be honest, I think the aftermarket toks are the same as oem. Do a search on the forum and you will see MANY complaints about them. They are way too soft. Very poor rebound control. Car bounces all over the place. And they don't last too long.

-Shing

 

I must be the only one who is not impressed by BMW's and the way they handle. I think they are trying to be luxury cars, I stress trying, and trying to be sports cars, again I stress trying. Lets all have a moment of silence for that wonderful BMW 318...it will be missed. (J.K.)

Erik
tifosiv122@hotmail.com

 

True the IRS is very good with minimizing camber angle especially when only one side of the wheel is going over bump. But have you ever driven behind a civic or most other cars with IRS and noticed how much changes in the camber angle of the rear wheels when going over dips and bumpbs that affect both sides of the wheel at the same time? I haven't yet to see this happen on a car with rear beam setup. Try jacking up the front and rear of the maxima and notice how the angle of the front wheels changed and NOT the rear? Also as I understand it with the Maxima's rear beam axle there really isn't much camber change at all on non-bumpy roads since this design keeps both wheels perpendicular to the ground regardless of body rolls. Of course with a too agressive RSB and too much lateral force the inside wheel could lift and all bets are off.


Cool I've posted question regarding whether the RSB would reduce that nasty side to side/skip movement during twisty turns and haven't got an answer til you said it here. Thanks!

 

What don't you like about BMW's suspension? Who are you comparing their suspension to?

K

 

My 3rd gen handles like a bimmer.. J/K
Oh n it even looks like one (sure)...hehe
One

 

If I were to compare it (Luxury wise) i'd compare it to a MB. Of course I feel bad for the Benz because I feel there is no comparison. Anyone who has been in a S600 would most likely agree. As for the way it handles, I thought it was too lose, not hugging the road well enough. I don't consider it a typical Euro/German "feel". I guess I am just not impressed with their cars at all. If you want a car that handles well, look at a Ferrari. Even the 10 Year old cars will handle better then todays BMW.

Erik

 

Ferrari vs. BMW, how can you even think about comparing the two? I don't like MB, for the simple fact that they don't handle like a BMW. When I see MB, I see strictly luxury. BMW, to me, mixes the 2. Which 10 year old cars?

K

 

Ah like what? What 10 year old car in the same general price range handles similar to BMW cars? Skid pad is not the total package here. Steering feel, communication to the driver, neutral handling and decent ride are all important things. BMW has done a excellent job in these areas. So what in 1991 can even come close?

 

Bimmers are one of the best handling cars out there. Car and Driver had the E36 M3 the best handling car, over the Ferrari F355 and Acura NSX (2nd and 3rd). Take a look at the price difference with those cars. Pretty impressive. I think next best (never driven a Ferrari) is Porsche. Driving a 911 is like nothing else on the planet. I suppose that's why 'there is no substitue'. Getting back to the point, BMW's have fabo suspensions, and their motors are quite impressive as well. I think that people who are uneducated about them kinda throw them in with Benz's b/c they are classy and German. They are built better than Benz's (though you could drive a MB through a wall), and perform better. MB's are built more for luxury, with performace on the side. BMW's are built for performace, luxury on the side. If you have any questions or doubts about a BMW's ride, take a 3 series out (6cyl), should answer...

 

So if im understadning you all..... my max isnt gonna be able to handle like a BMW?(at lest not for what i wanna pay)
So what would i have to do to come close?

 

Ok, first off, I didn't say that MB are meant to be sporty, their not. They are straight up cheap luxury (Compared to RR and Bently). Secondly, a 199X Ferrari 348 will handle sooo much better then a BMW. I don't care who rated them differently. On a track or on the road a Ferrari will out handle a BMW. The prices are the same. An M5 is what $70-80, well so is a 10 year old Ferrari. My original point was quite simply a BMW should not be the car all others are compared because it tries to do too many things and in my opinion doesn't do any of them the best.

Erik

 

Trust me, Shingles knows what he is talking about! He owns a car that handles better than M3, the S2000.

 

I wished I knew the answer; I don't, but I have been working on getting the Max to handle better. For me, on the autocross course, the biggest problem I have is severe understeer. Playing with tire pressure has helped some (after all of the mods listed in my sig) but you can't do it all with air. Shifting the battery to the trunk has helped a little also.

The next thing for me to try will be adjusting the sway bars. From what I've been told and have read, stiffening the rear bar and loosening the front will induce oversteer. My Addco bar has some adjusment left, but the front bar is stock and I don't know of anyone who makes an adjustable front bar or adjustable end links. I figure I will just try loosening the bolts a turn or two on the bushing end of the end links.

 

Here is a list:


Things to do that will imporve handling: Better weight distribution


- lighter front: Carbon fiber hood w/ removed intake resonator
- heavier back: full size spare tires and subwoofer @ trunk Move the battery to the trunk helps. A huge spoiler will also help weight distrubtion.


Performance
- LSD (standard on Canadian SE)
- Koni Struts (preferbly Tokico)
- Eibach or H&R springs
- FSTB
- RSB (REAR SWAY BAR)
- Lower profile tires
- Roll cage will insanely imporve the chassis stability!!!

 

obviously someone is biased to MB - the car that is made out of discarded BMW parts..... you just dont have a clue do you .... no way a FWD will handle like a RWD car.... ITR comes close but still not close enough... MB is more luxury and BMW is alot sportier... you must be related to phil huh ? muwhahahhahahaha

 

because he owns an S2000 doesnt mean that he is god, and the cars are similar in cornering ability... it comes down to the drivers ability to take it to the limit. you have something on your nose... its brown.....

 

Where can I buy a M5 for 70/80 bucks.....

 

From What I understand and hear the Konis are far better performers than the Tokicos. I did install the RSB today and the car does seem more controlled in corners. FSTB is on the way( Come on Cattman, j/k). I am going to do the Suspension in the late summer or fall, I want to get some Ideas @ MAXUS. I just wanted to get your opinion on the strut issue.
Thanks,
JCR

 

My point wasn't whether I trust him or not...I just wanted to know the reasoning behind his statements cause I wanted to learn more about handling.

 

sinewave if adjusting the RSB doesn't help much at autox then you could try having the shop increase the negative camber of your front wheels. Having neg camber with equal weight distribution on both left/right wheels going in a straight line will cancel their effects on each other. But when u're making a tight left turn for example, the right front wheel will now influence traction alot more since weight has shifted toward that side and the neg camber will cause the wheel to pull the car even more to the left, which is what you want. Of course too much is too much and what you want at auto crossing might cause too twitchy of steering feel and accelerated tire wear for normal driving.

 

Hey, if your really looking for a M5. I know where you can get them for that amount. A friend of mines is a fleet manager for a BMW dealership here in Atlanta. BMW's I normally get for other people, a get them at a good discount. He told me he could get M5 at sticker, it would be a waiting period, but it could be done. FYI

Okay, in response to the Ferrari and RR and Bentley. You can't compare BMW and MB to RR and Bentley or Ferrari. You are matching oranges and apples to watermelon. Everbody knows about the big boys.

K

 

That negcamber really helps. I dropped mine to -1.7 and I got my 1st trophy in auto-x last weekend partly due to that change! 29th place out of 100+
http://www.tsscc.org/2001/event3.html

 

Good going BeJay!!!
Sounds like those camber plates are working out well. How easy are they to switch adjustment from road to track and back again?

 

Wrong! Don't even think of getting that Tokico crap, one of the softest aftermarket shocks around. Go with Koni adjustibles tuned to full stiff setting.

 

Cool, congrats, glad it worked out for you. How did that camber setting worked on the street? Did your steering feel different?

 

Simple to switch camber settings. First I remove the two innermost bolts and just loosen the outer ones. Jack up that corner (I swap my tire here too). Slide the strut in (marked point with whiteout). Replace inner bolts and tighten all.

Finally, take a very short drive with some braking to see if they're even - if I pull to one side I rejack and back off the camber on that side a bit.

P.S. Grabbing the tire makes it easy. Sometimes I bang the top with a block of wood & hammer to nudge it a mm or so.

 

The neg-camber really helps the car turn and hookup. Just make sure the rear tires are pumped up to help the oversteer too. I ran at the -1.7deg for 60+ hwy miles travelling to/from auto-x. Maybe a bit more harsh but that might've just been the solid plates transfering bumps too. Sharper steering overall (kinda like adding the FSTB). Again make sure the alignments close to centered or you'll be fighting the wheel the whole time.