Eric425

My 4th gen has bad injectors in cylinders 3 and 5. The dealership wants 1360 to replace all of them, and I'm very hesitant considering the value of the car is only around 4k. And I'm an impoverished college student with barely enough money for food. There isn't any hope some sort of fuel injector cleaner could get them spraying normally again, right? Does ethanol based gas have anything to do with gumming them up? Is this the normal cost to get a couple injectors replaced?

heynow

iTrader: (1)

what a ripoff, you can find the parts for cheap and any decent mech can do it for 2X less $$$

abomb1987

iTrader: (6)

$1360 for injectors? thats crazy, as hey now said find a good tech around your area.. but is the car sputtering or stalling of any sort, if not just drive it until you can find a decent tech around, but 1360, their out of their mind, but as for fuel injector cleaner, your just paying 2 dollars and some change for water... lol for all you know someone could of pissed in the bottle

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

lol @ $1360.

You can get 6 used working injectors on here for like $60. A first timer with no experience could probably replace them in a couple hours. Someone who's done that sort of work before could do it in 30 minutes...

Anyways, depending upon what's wrong with them and how much downtime you can get away with, you can have the injectors sent to www.deatschwerks.com and thoroughly disassembled and cleaned for like $25...

2da mizzax

iTrader: (4)

how do you know the injectors are bad?

Eric425

Had the diagnostic at the dealer, and that's what they came up with. It matches the symptoms of the car, and I had guessed it was misfiring. Lumpy idling, vibrating/thumping sound at low rpms and speeds. I'd been thinking it was a bad ignition coil or something causing the misfire, but something gone wrong with the fuel system makes sense too.

Eric425

btw nealoc, do you think this is something the average wrencher could take care of? I've done my own y pipe, o2 sensors, and brakes, if this is something I could handle on my own, that'd save a lot of hassle.

sky jumper

I would get a 2nd opinion. go to an auto parts store (like autozone), borrow an OBDII scanner and read the codes. there is no code for "#3 fuel injector faulty...". there is a "cyl 3 misfire" though, but that could be a number of things - most likely the coils, which are a no-brainer.

an easy way to tell if the injectors are stuck is to listen to them. probe the outer injector case with a something you can hold to your ear (like a long screwdriver, a mechanic's s-scope, a piece of rubber tubing, etc). if the injector is funtioning it will make a rapid tick-tick-tick that will be clearly audible. with some careful maneauvering you should be able to probe the back bank injectors without removing anything.

however, the presence of injector tick doesn't necessarily mean they are "good" - they could be leaking fuel, and that could cause a misfire. check the plugs for carbon fouling to confirm if that is the case.

in any case, do not drop $1300 at the dealer for 6 new injectors. you have other, smarter, cheaper options.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

Yes. The injectors on the rear bank are more difficult, not sure if the injectors you are having problems with are rear or front bank. Front bank ones are easy and could be done in a matter of minutes assuming the screws that hold the injector retaining caps are not seized (which is often the case and can take a little bit of work to get them loose). The rear ones will require removal of the intake manifold which isn't hard but the bolts on the back of the intake manifold can be hard to get a good angle on, but it would require nothing more than a basic set of sockets, wrenches, screw driver, and some patience. The biggest hurdle will simply be removing the two 14mm bolts on the back of the manifold. Those gave me some trouble the first time I removed an intake manifold.

sky jumper

3 and 5 are back bank. do some more detective work before you pull off the UIM. you should be able to probe #5 without too much difficulty.

Eric425

Do the '95s have obdII?

sky jumper

ahh - didn't know you had a 95. no, I don't think they have OBDII, but autozone can scan your codes anyway. or check them yourself by putting the ECU in diag mode.

Eric425

I did the diagnosis mode thing before when the o2 sensors went bad. But if autozone/pep boys/shucks can still scan it for free, I'll give them a shot. Man, it'd be great if it just turned out to be coils. I'm going to go pick up a service manual for the car.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

EVERY 4th gen is OBD-II, this includes 95s. The OBD-II port is not in the 'standard' location on 95s because OBD-II was not MANDATORY until 1996 (and thus OBD-II port location was standardized in 1996).

Eric425

Oh. Will the guys at the auto shop know where the port is located? Where is the port? BTW, running with 2 misfiring cylinders won't damage the car, will it? I'm afraid of uneven stresses on the odd rod, or those 2 cylinders just running so lean and melting a valve or something?

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

it's on the passenger side of the car by the ECU. if you don't know where the ECU is it's below and behind your radio in that center console area (actually it's below an towards the FRONT of the car). The port is right there just above and to the left of the ECU if you are looking at it from the passenger door area.

as far as damage I wouldn't be worried about normal driving, I wouldn't go trying to race anyone right now though...

sky jumper

the main concern with a misfire is dumping raw fuel into your exhaust and damaging the O2 sensors and cat.

on a 99 the CEL will blink if the misfire is bad enough to cause such damage. I'd assume the same would be true for a 95 but I can't say.

nealoc why the caps? we can read. no need to shout.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

I use caps on certain words that I would put emphasis on were I speaking verbally in person so as to convey exactly what I mean to. You don't like it, tough ****.

sky jumper

hey nealoc what the heck is your problem? you're 27 years old. time to lean a bit of civility don't you think? and if you speak that way verbally in person, I'd say the same thing.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

three things:

1) I said emphasis - not scream/yell - you emphasize various words in your verbal communcation do you not? You don't speak in a monotonous tone like a robot do you? No, you emphasize certain words if you speak like a normal human being. Besides, I capitalized two words. Stop being so sensitive, christ...

2) Take a look at every single post of the 10,000 or so I've ever made on this board over the past 6 years. 99.999% of them are perfectly civil. If someone posts misinformation which has been corrected hundreds of times on this forum by myself and others, sometimes I get tired of seeing it. Your having said that 95s are OBD-I is a good example of this.

3) I just found out in the past hour that my uncle died tonight.

sky jumper

well sorry to hear about your uncle.

I don't appreciate the "tough ****" remark, but I suppose it doesn't much matter.

I wasn't sure about the 95, so I said "I don't think", and then pointed out that it didn't matter. I suppose I should've said "I don't know"

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

You didn't deserve the "tough ****" but after more than a few beers for St. Patties day and then finding out one of the coolest guys in the world died of duodenal cancer when he seemed to be doing so well 5 days ago when I saw him, it just kind of typed itself.

Truly though, my use of caps was not to indicate any sort of yelling, if we were speaking to eachother those are the words I would have put a slight accent on just for emphasis. Italics would have probably been more appropriate but sometimes I just don't care quite enough to add the italics html tags

Eric425

sky jumper, you said to get a 2nd opinion and check if it's ignition coils. If I just pull up the codes for misfiring cylinder, how do I know if ignition coils are bad? There isn't a code for that either, right?

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

You could try swapping the coils around and driving for a while to see if you get misfire codes for different cylinders than before. In general, ignition coils are a problem for 4th gens so it's definitely something to check out.

sky jumper

right. it's just that coils are so much easier to deal with, and they are a known problem area. nealoc's suggestion should work. or if you pull P1320 you can test the coils by measuring the primary side resistance. but I'm guessing you'll pull P0303 and P0305, which are the cylinder misfire codes. that could mean a varitey of things....

1) the first thing I'd do is check the plugs. 3 and 5 will likely be carbon fouled. if so, replace them with new Vpower copper plugs and see if that fixes things.
2) if problem still exists, check for spark on coils 3 and 5. do this one at a time. pull the coil out, insert a known good plug, have a helper start engine, hold the plug threads near engine ground and look for spark arcing the gap. if coils do not spark, replace them.
3) if they do spark, try nealoc's method. you can only go to cyl 1. if misfire moves with coil(s) to cyl 1, replace the 2 bad coils.
4) if misfire does not move with coil(s), try unplugging injectors 3 & 5 while the engine is running. this may be difficult/impossible on the back bank. if unplugging the injectors does not cause a worse misfire, and they do not tick when plugged in, then the injector(s) are bad and need to be replaced.
5) if misfire does get worse when injector is unplugged, the injector is at least partially functional and is not the likely cause, or it might be fixed with a quality polyether amine-based fuel injector cleaner (techron, redline, gumout regane, etc).

if this still doesn't solve things check back with us. there are a few other less likely things it could be (low compression, etc).

willard00

iTrader: (1)

if you really want to find out if its the coils, go to sears and buy this for $9:

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...seBVCookie=Yes

all you do is pull the coil out and put it on top of the tester(like coil on plug). the little clip is supposed to be clipped to ground. then you start the car and look at the tester. if its sparking the coil is good. but when you pull the coil out make sure the electrical connector is still connected.

sky jumper

hey willard how is that any different than just using a spark plug? seems like a $9 spark plug to me. i'd also wonder about the load it presents to the coil. these coils are finicky, and if you load them wrong they can be damaged.

chillin014

iTrader: (67)

i have a fuel rail off my old motor (which i just pulled the other day) that i can sell. I have the coilpacks too, but i cant gaurantee which ones are good because i had an intermittent misfire problem which im sure was the coilpacks which is why i have one extra front and rear coilpack (total of 8 coilpacks) to include for anyone who wants to take the time to figure out which one is bad.
all of that is considered in the price..let me know what you think

willard00

iTrader: (1)

it is basically is a $9 spark plug. but plugs are grounded through the threads. which makes it pretty hard to use a plug as a tester without messing up the threads. and i wouldnt be worried about the load. since my teacher who showed it to me said he used them all the time when he was in the field (and he was in the field for 20+ years). plus i dont think they would teach you something that could potentially cause problems...seeing how theyre supposed to teach you how to fix cars, not break them haha.

edit: i mean, if you really wanted to you could make one of these yourself. but its only $9, personally ide just get the real thing since youde probably spend close to $9 trying to make one yourself.

Superchiu

You can use a voltmeter and measure the resistance across the two terminals on the fuel injector. The operating range is 10 - 14 ohms.

To do this just unplug the harness on the fuel injector. You will see two terminals. Measure across this two terminals.

sky jumper

that is not a conclusive test. the injector's coil may indeed be 10-14 ohms (i'd have to look it up to confirm) but the reason most injectors fail is they get clogged with deposits and the solenoid valve sticks. this will have no effect on the DC resistance of the coil. so an injector's coil may measure "ok" but the injector is still fubar.

instead listen for the telltale "click click click" of the injector's solenoid. and injector that sticks doesnt click, and vice-versa.