4TH GEN GURUs!!! - still have WARM CRANKING ISSUES.....please help $$$ reward
A quick search and you would have found my install tips/instructions for a O2 simulator..
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....3178&highlight
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....3178&highlight
This is false, electricity is very temperamental to temperature and humidity. My car started perfect cold but 8 out of 10 times you would have to press the gas to get it to start correctly when warm. Added a 8awg wire from the starter bolt to the battery and it has started perfectly for 2 weeks now, cranks faster, and mpg has gone from about 26 to high 29s.
i dunno man. im as lost as you are.
i spent the majority of this week making wires (set of 5) to ground various things. im gonna put em on tomorrow as well as sand off all the existing grounds.
kenny is coming down through here on sunday, on his way to check out exotics vq30, and he is gonna look over some things.
do you know how to install an o2 sim?
the directions are pretty ****ty.
im thinkning that might also be the cause of this.
i spent the majority of this week making wires (set of 5) to ground various things. im gonna put em on tomorrow as well as sand off all the existing grounds.
kenny is coming down through here on sunday, on his way to check out exotics vq30, and he is gonna look over some things.
do you know how to install an o2 sim?
the directions are pretty ****ty.
im thinkning that might also be the cause of this.
But grounds are not tempermental to either condition, When a ground wire gets hot it keeps the same amount of resistance unless you melt the ****er, the situation you are confusing youreself with is the extra ground you placed, it will make the cars electrical system more efficent but thats it. the rest is all placebo effect.
DO you have a phobia against taking your **** apart to get to the actual culprit?
DO you have a phobia against taking your **** apart to get to the actual culprit?
alright..............
the following was done this weekend:
1) installed my homemade grounds (8 AWG wire) which grounded the following:
- timing chain cover
- front of the crankcase
- throttle body
- upper intake manifold
- neg battery terminal to the existing ground on drivers side
- grounded bellhousing to starter to upper oil pan
2) i also resanded the two other factory grounds.
3) installed the 02 simulator and cleared the code (not sure if this is 100% working or not, because it usually takes a week for the ECU to throw the 02 code after its been cleared, so we will see)
4) ran the NWP coolant bypass (the step we skipped before)
5) adjusted the idle, only to have the ECU adjust it back. it seems the screw on the IACV is totally worthless, because whenever the idle is changed, the computer just changes it back.
6) plugged the ECU into the Nissan consult. CPS, TPS and ECTS all seem to be fine.
got to finally drive my car today and i have the same exact problem.
the following was done this weekend:
1) installed my homemade grounds (8 AWG wire) which grounded the following:
- timing chain cover
- front of the crankcase
- throttle body
- upper intake manifold
- neg battery terminal to the existing ground on drivers side
- grounded bellhousing to starter to upper oil pan
2) i also resanded the two other factory grounds.
3) installed the 02 simulator and cleared the code (not sure if this is 100% working or not, because it usually takes a week for the ECU to throw the 02 code after its been cleared, so we will see)
4) ran the NWP coolant bypass (the step we skipped before)
5) adjusted the idle, only to have the ECU adjust it back. it seems the screw on the IACV is totally worthless, because whenever the idle is changed, the computer just changes it back.
6) plugged the ECU into the Nissan consult. CPS, TPS and ECTS all seem to be fine.
got to finally drive my car today and i have the same exact problem.
Sucks it didn't work out for ya Rockart, but to be perfectly honest, I'm not surprised.
x2
I still think the spacer kit has indirectly caused the problem. Maybe something wasn't put back right, some hose got cracked/cut etc etc. After all, you didn't have this problem before the spacer kit install. I recommend that the "Grand Master Tech" retraces his steps and figures it out.
x2
its not that i dont think i could take the manifold off. i bet i could. reassembling it is another story.
for someone with a total of 6 months of car knowledge under his belt, i dont think taking off the entire thing is an activity that i would consider "smart" in an apartment complex parking lot with a 40 piece set of tools from sears and nothing else. what if it starts raining?
additionally this car is my daily driver. if i were to take something apart and break it, or not know how to reassemble it, or lose a piece in the engine, i would have no way of getting to work. then i would lose my job, start abusing drugs and pretty soon you would see me on americas most wanted.
in conclusion, taking apart my IM = life of crime
if i actually saw something that needed to get repaired or something that was visibily failing, i would probably attempt to take it apart on my own. but just taking it apart to "get to the actual culprit" (i.e. looking and poking at stuff in a vain effort to fix something) is, im guessing, a huge waste of time and not worth the risk.
call me a ***** or whatever you want, but without this car i have no way of getting around. i have no secondary car, no family to drive me around, and about $800 in the bank, total.
"mistakes", at this point in my life, are debilitating.
the Nissan master mechanic, who initially did the install, has already removed and replaced all the pieces once when the plenum gasket was leaking.....
he noticed nothing then, and still noticed nothing on Sunday when he was inspecting it.
at this point, he says, hes just gonna "start trying random things". the first thing he suggested was swapping IACVs from another 4th gen he has to see if that makes a difference. he also thinks i should replace the pos and neg battery wires, as they are both very badly corroded.
what next?
i dont know.
remove the spacers and drive around for a few weeks? if that doesnt solve it, remove the brand new Y pipe and drive around stock for a few weeks.
if that doesnt work, i dunno wtf.
im just shocked that everyone has a different solution to this problem, and none of them are right. it seems like a car's workings should be logically based, or be able to be completely diagnosed via a computer. but theyre not. \
im beginning to hear solutions like "well you know sometimes cars just get cranky" or "some kind of sensor has died, but isnt telling the ECU" or "once you start modding, you have to mod it 100%".
just bull****
for someone with a total of 6 months of car knowledge under his belt, i dont think taking off the entire thing is an activity that i would consider "smart" in an apartment complex parking lot with a 40 piece set of tools from sears and nothing else. what if it starts raining?
additionally this car is my daily driver. if i were to take something apart and break it, or not know how to reassemble it, or lose a piece in the engine, i would have no way of getting to work. then i would lose my job, start abusing drugs and pretty soon you would see me on americas most wanted.
in conclusion, taking apart my IM = life of crime
if i actually saw something that needed to get repaired or something that was visibily failing, i would probably attempt to take it apart on my own. but just taking it apart to "get to the actual culprit" (i.e. looking and poking at stuff in a vain effort to fix something) is, im guessing, a huge waste of time and not worth the risk.
call me a ***** or whatever you want, but without this car i have no way of getting around. i have no secondary car, no family to drive me around, and about $800 in the bank, total.
"mistakes", at this point in my life, are debilitating.
the Nissan master mechanic, who initially did the install, has already removed and replaced all the pieces once when the plenum gasket was leaking.....
he noticed nothing then, and still noticed nothing on Sunday when he was inspecting it.
at this point, he says, hes just gonna "start trying random things". the first thing he suggested was swapping IACVs from another 4th gen he has to see if that makes a difference. he also thinks i should replace the pos and neg battery wires, as they are both very badly corroded.
what next?
i dont know.
remove the spacers and drive around for a few weeks? if that doesnt solve it, remove the brand new Y pipe and drive around stock for a few weeks.
if that doesnt work, i dunno wtf.
im just shocked that everyone has a different solution to this problem, and none of them are right. it seems like a car's workings should be logically based, or be able to be completely diagnosed via a computer. but theyre not. \
im beginning to hear solutions like "well you know sometimes cars just get cranky" or "some kind of sensor has died, but isnt telling the ECU" or "once you start modding, you have to mod it 100%".
just bull****
Last edited by ROCKART; May 19, 2008 at 08:59 PM.
Go back to your list and exhaust all options. That is what I would do before posting in this thread.
You do more complaining than trying.
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Here's a video of my starting problem but it can happen warm or cold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfl9pe3fzBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfl9pe3fzBI
I hate to keep beating this in but you state you added all of these grounds, yet you just posted that the negative battery cable is severely corroded??? 14.2 million ground wires will do nothing if the source ground is junk.
I think you're the one that is being difficult. The Wizard and many others have tried to help you, but you're far too stubborn to try anting out on your own.
Go back to your list and exhaust all options. That is what I would do before posting in this thread.
You do more complaining than trying.
Go back to your list and exhaust all options. That is what I would do before posting in this thread.
You do more complaining than trying.
If the ground source were that bad, The damned thing wouldnt run, period. He's wasted enough time with grounds at is., What he needs to focus on, Is taking his time, Read Through the haynes manual or FSM on how to do the **** we told him already and go from there, Its not Difficult if you take your time. He can worry about grounds when he gets the **** running right.
I think you're the one that is being difficult. The Wizard and many others have tried to help you, but you're far too stubborn to try anting out on your own.
Go back to your list and exhaust all options. That is what I would do before posting in this thread.
You do more complaining than trying.
Go back to your list and exhaust all options. That is what I would do before posting in this thread.
You do more complaining than trying.
when i was referring to "everyone" i wasnt specifically talking about the people on maxima.org - i was talking about the 50 other people ive shown this problem to in real life..... you guys are trying to help, and i appreciate it. i never said you werent doing a good enough job or that i didnt value your input.
if that were the case, i wouldnt even be posting updates about this issue.
and, perhaps i didnt make this clear, but my list was checked off one by one this weekend. we went though all possibilities except spark plugs.
im just pissed that this is a problem that seems to be unfixable.
i dont have the technical knowhow to just start "anting" around at things and seeing if they are properly attached/installed/grounded. that is why i am here, on this forum, for the technical knowhow.
christ, i had never even seen a car with its IM off until the spacer install in my 27 years on this planet (21 of which were spent in new york city, riding subways)
these are the same questions that stump every possible problem/solution.
what about that day made these things fail?
the fact i spilled brake fluid all over the reservoir and down onto the starter?
the fact we replaced the evap cannister?
the fact kenny used a ton of RTV on the NWP spacers?
the fact that the EGR gasket was crushed on our first attempt to put the IM back on?
the fact that we forgot to put the PCV hose back on after the install was complete and the RPMS flew all over the place?
the fact we skipped the coolant bypass the first time around?
im lost....
the ONE thing ive taken away from this experience is this: dont do multiple modifications/installs at the same time. do them one at a time so that you KNOW what is causing a problem.
The higher the heat, the higher the resistance. I would first fix ALL corroded electrical connections, especially the battery ground cable. Make sure the battery terminals are in good shape and go ahead and replace the entire negative cable on the battery. Make sure all grounds are nice and shiny before installing them back. A lot of problems originate from bad grounds. Even if this isn't the cause of your problem, fixing any corroded connections should be a priority and needed to be fixed anyway.
Also, pull just one spark plug and look at it to see if it's in poor shape. It shouldn't take you more than 2 minutes. If you don't know how to pull a spark plug, feel free to call me and I'll help out since I want to do everything I can to keep you a happy NWP Engineering customer.
About the RTV on the spacers, you should have only applied a thin, consistent layer on both sides of the spacers as the instructions showed. Otherwise, it would squeeze out and disrupt the airflow. But I don't see how this could cause any of your problems as long as everything was torqued properly.
Also, the coolant bypass has absolutely nothing to do with your problem. Stop worrying about that. It's only included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit in order to prevent coolant from flowing through your intake manifold, which would heat things up. Not bypassing it would never cause engine problems. You just won't get the full effect of the spacers.
But I want you to fix the corroded negative cable by yourself. You can do it. There's not much you can screw up there. Just go to the parts store and purchase a cable that will go from your battery to the ground bracket on the block. Make sure it's the correct length. Also, replace the terminal connectors while you're at it if they are old. Spend an extra buck and get the nicer brass ones.
Also, pull just one spark plug and look at it to see if it's in poor shape. It shouldn't take you more than 2 minutes. If you don't know how to pull a spark plug, feel free to call me and I'll help out since I want to do everything I can to keep you a happy NWP Engineering customer.
About the RTV on the spacers, you should have only applied a thin, consistent layer on both sides of the spacers as the instructions showed. Otherwise, it would squeeze out and disrupt the airflow. But I don't see how this could cause any of your problems as long as everything was torqued properly.
Also, the coolant bypass has absolutely nothing to do with your problem. Stop worrying about that. It's only included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit in order to prevent coolant from flowing through your intake manifold, which would heat things up. Not bypassing it would never cause engine problems. You just won't get the full effect of the spacers.
But I want you to fix the corroded negative cable by yourself. You can do it. There's not much you can screw up there. Just go to the parts store and purchase a cable that will go from your battery to the ground bracket on the block. Make sure it's the correct length. Also, replace the terminal connectors while you're at it if they are old. Spend an extra buck and get the nicer brass ones.
I just want to add this for some food for thought.
Ever since I replaced my tranny in march Ive had starting issues. Well today I finally added a ground wire from my starter bolt that bolts it to the tranny to the negative battery terminal. My car starts much quicker now (but its still not perfect). I realize you said you added grounds and that this isnt your exact problem but I just want to say what helped me a little bit.
Ever since I replaced my tranny in march Ive had starting issues. Well today I finally added a ground wire from my starter bolt that bolts it to the tranny to the negative battery terminal. My car starts much quicker now (but its still not perfect). I realize you said you added grounds and that this isnt your exact problem but I just want to say what helped me a little bit.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 99
To be honest, I read the fist couple posts and just skipped the rest, but anyways:
I was acctually READING the Manual today (long story about why that was, but thats irrelevant) and I read, if you're starting the car when it's been driven within the last 30 minutes, gas it while starting er up.
No lie. I was completely baffled as to why they would say that, but maybe its some weird *** thing that just happens? If you don't believe me, go to the how to drive section (I think its section 4, page 10ish maybe? I think thats close to what it is) of the manual. At least thats what it was for my 95 Max.
I was acctually READING the Manual today (long story about why that was, but thats irrelevant) and I read, if you're starting the car when it's been driven within the last 30 minutes, gas it while starting er up.
No lie. I was completely baffled as to why they would say that, but maybe its some weird *** thing that just happens? If you don't believe me, go to the how to drive section (I think its section 4, page 10ish maybe? I think thats close to what it is) of the manual. At least thats what it was for my 95 Max.
The higher the heat, the higher the resistance. I would first fix ALL corroded electrical connections, especially the battery ground cable. Make sure the battery terminals are in good shape and go ahead and replace the entire negative cable on the battery. Make sure all grounds are nice and shiny before installing them back. A lot of problems originate from bad grounds. Even if this isn't the cause of your problem, fixing any corroded connections should be a priority and needed to be fixed anyway.
Also, pull just one spark plug and look at it to see if it's in poor shape. It shouldn't take you more than 2 minutes. If you don't know how to pull a spark plug, feel free to call me and I'll help out since I want to do everything I can to keep you a happy NWP Engineering customer.
About the RTV on the spacers, you should have only applied a thin, consistent layer on both sides of the spacers as the instructions showed. Otherwise, it would squeeze out and disrupt the airflow. But I don't see how this could cause any of your problems as long as everything was torqued properly.
Also, the coolant bypass has absolutely nothing to do with your problem. Stop worrying about that. It's only included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit in order to prevent coolant from flowing through your intake manifold, which would heat things up. Not bypassing it would never cause engine problems. You just won't get the full effect of the spacers.
But I want you to fix the corroded negative cable by yourself. You can do it. There's not much you can screw up there. Just go to the parts store and purchase a cable that will go from your battery to the ground bracket on the block. Make sure it's the correct length. Also, replace the terminal connectors while you're at it if they are old. Spend an extra buck and get the nicer brass ones.
Also, pull just one spark plug and look at it to see if it's in poor shape. It shouldn't take you more than 2 minutes. If you don't know how to pull a spark plug, feel free to call me and I'll help out since I want to do everything I can to keep you a happy NWP Engineering customer.
About the RTV on the spacers, you should have only applied a thin, consistent layer on both sides of the spacers as the instructions showed. Otherwise, it would squeeze out and disrupt the airflow. But I don't see how this could cause any of your problems as long as everything was torqued properly.
Also, the coolant bypass has absolutely nothing to do with your problem. Stop worrying about that. It's only included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit in order to prevent coolant from flowing through your intake manifold, which would heat things up. Not bypassing it would never cause engine problems. You just won't get the full effect of the spacers.
But I want you to fix the corroded negative cable by yourself. You can do it. There's not much you can screw up there. Just go to the parts store and purchase a cable that will go from your battery to the ground bracket on the block. Make sure it's the correct length. Also, replace the terminal connectors while you're at it if they are old. Spend an extra buck and get the nicer brass ones.
and yea i can see where the neg battery cable attaches, and im 100% sure i could do it myself. thats not the issue holding me back.
i was planning on waiting till my next paycheck and calling up Dave B to order a set of OEM ones instead of just gettin Autozone generics.
I just want to add this for some food for thought.
Ever since I replaced my tranny in march Ive had starting issues. Well today I finally added a ground wire from my starter bolt that bolts it to the tranny to the negative battery terminal. My car starts much quicker now (but its still not perfect). I realize you said you added grounds and that this isnt your exact problem but I just want to say what helped me a little bit.
Ever since I replaced my tranny in march Ive had starting issues. Well today I finally added a ground wire from my starter bolt that bolts it to the tranny to the negative battery terminal. My car starts much quicker now (but its still not perfect). I realize you said you added grounds and that this isnt your exact problem but I just want to say what helped me a little bit.
the only discernable difference is that my headunit powers up quicker.
NGK plats come pregapped. but yes i checked them before installing.
either way, if the plugs were fouled it would have been a problem since day 1, not just the day after i did the ypipe/spacers.
we initially did it with a consult. then we did it the IACV way. both time the computer compensated and brought it back down to 650.
either way, if the plugs were fouled it would have been a problem since day 1, not just the day after i did the ypipe/spacers.
we initially did it with a consult. then we did it the IACV way. both time the computer compensated and brought it back down to 650.
i dont know if this was already mentioned but I just had this thought:
Did you readjust your throttle cables after putting on the spacers? If not they would be too tight, or maybe they were adjusted and now they are too loose?
Did you readjust your throttle cables after putting on the spacers? If not they would be too tight, or maybe they were adjusted and now they are too loose?
Even if they were dangling, the spring loaded IACV wouldn't be affected, unless the IACV is bad.
what would be the symptoms of a bad IACV? irradic idle?
wouldnt a bad IACV trip some sort of code?
just an FYI, i cleaned the IACV with MOHFpro and DaveVQ back in January.
everything was fine after that.
two things to mention:
- we reused the old gaskets
- we couldnt get that inner gold cap/dome off (the one with three screws). we ended up stripping one of the screws and just letting it be.
like i posted before, Kenny says his next guess is a faulty IACV.
what would be the symptoms of a bad IACV? irradic idle?
wouldnt a bad IACV trip some sort of code?
just an FYI, i cleaned the IACV with MOHFpro and DaveVQ back in January.
everything was fine after that.
two things to mention:
- we reused the old gaskets
- we couldnt get that inner gold cap/dome off (the one with three screws). we ended up stripping one of the screws and just letting it be.
what would be the symptoms of a bad IACV? irradic idle?
wouldnt a bad IACV trip some sort of code?
just an FYI, i cleaned the IACV with MOHFpro and DaveVQ back in January.
everything was fine after that.
two things to mention:
- we reused the old gaskets
- we couldnt get that inner gold cap/dome off (the one with three screws). we ended up stripping one of the screws and just letting it be.
Damn dude, you got Dave & MOH at your disposal? They're slacking ... I would hope they would find your problem and fix it pronto.
lol @ NimexMAX
I actually tried the "give it a little gas" suggestion today. The car was sitting for about 40mins (usually a trouble area).
I gave it just a 'lil bit of gas, and it fired up like it was still warm.
I'll be trying that more in the future.
I actually tried the "give it a little gas" suggestion today. The car was sitting for about 40mins (usually a trouble area).
I gave it just a 'lil bit of gas, and it fired up like it was still warm.
I'll be trying that more in the future.
If the ground source were that bad, The damned thing wouldnt run, period. He's wasted enough time with grounds at is., What he needs to focus on, Is taking his time, Read Through the haynes manual or FSM on how to do the **** we told him already and go from there, Its not Difficult if you take your time. He can worry about grounds when he gets the **** running right.
Anyhow, yes these would be symptoms of a failed IACV, just no way to link it to the work you did unless you somehow accidentally damaged it or it's just pure coincidence. I'm not sure how the feedback signal from it works to know if it would set a code. Search the code meanings and see if it is one of them.
checked all the spark plugs this weekend and tried resanding all the grounding points.
no change as of yet.
my next few tasks are:
replace neg and pos battery cable
clean EGR
RE-clean IACV and check for leaks
this one guy at a local shop was telling me that he thinks its a result of something expanding (due to heat). he said when you start the car cold this piece is normal sized and allows for a normal start - but when the engine is hot, the piece is englarged and possibly is causing a leak or fault.
does this make sense?
what could this be?
no change as of yet.
my next few tasks are:
replace neg and pos battery cable
clean EGR
RE-clean IACV and check for leaks
this one guy at a local shop was telling me that he thinks its a result of something expanding (due to heat). he said when you start the car cold this piece is normal sized and allows for a normal start - but when the engine is hot, the piece is englarged and possibly is causing a leak or fault.
does this make sense?
what could this be?
Newbie - Just Registered
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1
this is a continuation of a post i made a couple of weeks back, but i have some new suggestions, plus i wanted to give a better overall picture and more accurate description of the problem.
and this is a 1997 GLE with 48k and an auto tranny.
THE EFFECT:
--> if i leave my car parked overnight, or the 9 hours i spend at work, and i come out to start it, it starts fine. by fine i mean the car ignites quickly, catches quickly, and the RPMs shoot up to the normal starting parameters (~1200-1500). i refer to this as a "strong" start.
--> if i drive my car around for 30 minutes or so, and then turn it off and leave it for 15 minutes, and then come back to start it, it starts VERY VERY weakly. by this i mean that the car ignites quickly, and it catches, but the RPMs sputter around 200-300 for about a full second before going up to the ~1200 mark.
this causes the car to shake a bit.
twice, in the three weeks this has been going on, the RPMs sputtered around the 200-300 mark before just giving out and stalling the car (it almost seems like this is a power issue [starter/alternator/grounding], but i dont understand why it would only happen when the engine is warm).
--> if i drive my car around for 30 minutes or so, and then turn it off and turn it back on immediately, it will start perfectly fine, as if the engine was cold.
THE CAUSE:
**some of this stuff may be inconsequential, because we found whatever problem it was and fixed it, but i figured i would include it in case it could have caused another problem that im not thinking of.
three weekends ago i spent the day at a Nissan dealership (with an org member who works there) installing the following:
a) NWP Thermal Intake Spacer Kit (one throttle body spacer, two lower intake spacers and one plenum gasket spacer)
b) Budget Y Pipe
c) Replaced Valve Cover Gaskets
and then some other random things:
d) Replaced Rotors
e) Replaced Charcoal Cannister and Valve (to get rid of my CEL)
f) Flushed Brake Fluid
g) Tranny Drain/Fill
initially, after the 7 hours of labor was complete, when we tried to start the car up, the idle was very erratic and jumpy. we discovered that in the process of redrilling those brackets, and putting the IM back on, the EGR gasket slipped a little and allowed a leak. we removed the IM again, redrilled the brackets and corrected the problem. the idle was normal once again.
the next few days, i began to notice that when i was sitting at a red light, my RPMs would be at 600-650 and then drop down to 550 and 500 and make the whole car shake and rumble. i would have to give it gas to get it to sit back normally (this was from a plenum gasket leak, but i didnt know it at this point).
also in that same week after the big install, i was driving on the highway going about 70-75 and i decided it was time to test out the new bolt-ons. i gunned it past a slow moving car on my right, jumping from about 75mph to 85mph in a matter of seconds and my CEL light suddenly appeared.
i drove to Autozone the next day and had it read: code 0707 or P0136, which is the rear bank 02 sensor (the one behind the main cat).
i drove back to the dealership the next weekend and i told him that i was having idle issues when in D, plus my CEL popped on for an 02 sensor. he tested the NWP plenum gasket for leaks, and found one right in the front. it was fixed, and so was the idle at red lights, however my 02 sensor code which i attributed to the leak, DID come back after clearing the codes.
he plugged my car into the Nissan Consult and it read EVERYTHING as perfectly normal, including the so-called "faulty" 02 sensor that was tripping the CEL. we had it run a variety of diagnostic programs on the engine, both while i was driving and while it was at idle - everything came back as nomal.
he actually had an extra 02 sensor laying around, so he figured we could just swap the two and see if the new one would end up with the same problem. he put my car up on the lift again and went to unscrew the rear 02 only to learn that it had been rusted into the bung, and that removing it ran the risk of stripping the threads and having to replace the whole section.
he suggested trying to find that main cat + rear 02 bung used off an org member/junk yard. obviously, we had to hold off on that experiment.
AS IT STANDS NOW:
i know ive read and heard from a variety of org members that sometimes adding an aftermarket y pipe can cause the 02 sensor to malfunction because so much extra air is now hitting it. then again, some of you drive around with your Y pipe with no CEL problems at all.
regardless, i just learned what an 02 simulator does and will plan on getting one if i cant figure out how to make this rear 02 stop reading as faulty.
anyway, i have no more idle issues, the car seems to drive fine, except i still have this starting issue, and i still am looking at this 0707 CEL all the time.
would a faulty rear 02 sensor cause this weird starting problem? why would it only happen when its warm? exhaust gases?
what i dont want is to spend money on a new rear bung/new rear 02 sensor and have this problem re-occur, in case there is actually something CAUSING the rear 02 sensor to read as faulty or in case this isnt even the problem to begin with.
im pretty ****ing pissed that ive spent this much already......
THE SUGGESTIONS:
im still not sure if this is from the Y pipe or spacer kit, or a combination of the two.
these are the suggestions ive gotten, both from org members and local people:
1) ECTS (engine coolant temperature sensor). this would most likely be throwing a code if it was broken, plus it would be pretty strange for this to coincidentally break on the same day i was putting all this aftermarket stuff on. the nissan mechanic who did this stuff with me said hes never seen one fail in over a decade.
2) Exhaust gases getting caught in the pipes (this is from the Autozone employee). basically, now that i have a high-flow y pipe, but the rest of my exhaust stock, the exhaust is getting caught up around the main cat and choking my car. this would make sense, because only when the car is warm would gases still be in there (when its cold, the gases have had time to dissipate) but, ive heard from a number of maxima owners who say they used an aftermarket Y with stock exhaust and had no problems.
3) Fouled Spark Plugs (from a guy i work with). he said when the car is warm, the oil is still consolidating down at the bottom of the crankcase, so its possible they saturate one or two of the plugs. when the engine is cold, all the oil has settled, and leaves all the plugs free to fire.
this doesnt really make that much sense, because a fouled plug is a fouled plug, and i would get starting issues all the time.
he said either that, or some kind of sensor issue.
4) two org members have said Bad Coil Packs, but this would cause misfiring right? and why would the start issue just happen when the engine is warm if one of the coils was bad all the time?
5) Grounding Issue. the org member that helped me with all these installs thinks that putting the spacers in has somehow eliminated a ground for the engine. he thinks that the upper IM and lower IM, that were touching before the spacer kit, ground off each other, and now that there is a plastic 1/4 spacer between them, they can no longer do that.
we ran a jerry-rigged grounding kit from the ECM grounds to the neg battery terminal (actually to try to fix the weird 02 code), but that hasnt done much. he said he would try grounding the bottom of the oil reservoir to the tranny case as well.
but why would this only happen when the engine is warm?
and then there are about 20 other org members with these spacers and no grounding problems.
6) Starter is dying from exhaust gases. Essential1 (a local org member who works at an autoshop) met me this weekend to check out the problem first hand. he seemed pretty sure it was the starter on its way out, but that doesnt explain why my car only has these weak starts when its warm.
he mentioned something about exhaust gases corrupting the starting solenoid, and that i would need to replace the starter alltogether, we well as put some sort of gas shield over the new starter solenoid. but if this is actually the problem, and my y pipe is spewing exhaust onto my starter, i dont want to just go replace the starter again - because in 6-12 months ill just have the same problem....
CONCLUSION:
im sorry this is so long, but i am ****ing stumped here. no one seems to be able to figure this out.
and quite frankly, knowing what i know now, and how much money ive dumped into these "bolt-on" mods, i would NEVER have done it.
the added power is no where near worth all these problems. i would have thought for 800 plus dollars of experimentation, i would be making my car stronger and faster, but it has made it weak and tempermental, for not that much more hp.
im pissed. i should have just left it stock.
and this is a 1997 GLE with 48k and an auto tranny.
THE EFFECT:
--> if i leave my car parked overnight, or the 9 hours i spend at work, and i come out to start it, it starts fine. by fine i mean the car ignites quickly, catches quickly, and the RPMs shoot up to the normal starting parameters (~1200-1500). i refer to this as a "strong" start.
--> if i drive my car around for 30 minutes or so, and then turn it off and leave it for 15 minutes, and then come back to start it, it starts VERY VERY weakly. by this i mean that the car ignites quickly, and it catches, but the RPMs sputter around 200-300 for about a full second before going up to the ~1200 mark.
this causes the car to shake a bit.
twice, in the three weeks this has been going on, the RPMs sputtered around the 200-300 mark before just giving out and stalling the car (it almost seems like this is a power issue [starter/alternator/grounding], but i dont understand why it would only happen when the engine is warm).
--> if i drive my car around for 30 minutes or so, and then turn it off and turn it back on immediately, it will start perfectly fine, as if the engine was cold.
THE CAUSE:
**some of this stuff may be inconsequential, because we found whatever problem it was and fixed it, but i figured i would include it in case it could have caused another problem that im not thinking of.
three weekends ago i spent the day at a Nissan dealership (with an org member who works there) installing the following:
a) NWP Thermal Intake Spacer Kit (one throttle body spacer, two lower intake spacers and one plenum gasket spacer)
b) Budget Y Pipe
c) Replaced Valve Cover Gaskets
and then some other random things:
d) Replaced Rotors
e) Replaced Charcoal Cannister and Valve (to get rid of my CEL)
f) Flushed Brake Fluid
g) Tranny Drain/Fill
initially, after the 7 hours of labor was complete, when we tried to start the car up, the idle was very erratic and jumpy. we discovered that in the process of redrilling those brackets, and putting the IM back on, the EGR gasket slipped a little and allowed a leak. we removed the IM again, redrilled the brackets and corrected the problem. the idle was normal once again.
the next few days, i began to notice that when i was sitting at a red light, my RPMs would be at 600-650 and then drop down to 550 and 500 and make the whole car shake and rumble. i would have to give it gas to get it to sit back normally (this was from a plenum gasket leak, but i didnt know it at this point).
also in that same week after the big install, i was driving on the highway going about 70-75 and i decided it was time to test out the new bolt-ons. i gunned it past a slow moving car on my right, jumping from about 75mph to 85mph in a matter of seconds and my CEL light suddenly appeared.
i drove to Autozone the next day and had it read: code 0707 or P0136, which is the rear bank 02 sensor (the one behind the main cat).
i drove back to the dealership the next weekend and i told him that i was having idle issues when in D, plus my CEL popped on for an 02 sensor. he tested the NWP plenum gasket for leaks, and found one right in the front. it was fixed, and so was the idle at red lights, however my 02 sensor code which i attributed to the leak, DID come back after clearing the codes.
he plugged my car into the Nissan Consult and it read EVERYTHING as perfectly normal, including the so-called "faulty" 02 sensor that was tripping the CEL. we had it run a variety of diagnostic programs on the engine, both while i was driving and while it was at idle - everything came back as nomal.
he actually had an extra 02 sensor laying around, so he figured we could just swap the two and see if the new one would end up with the same problem. he put my car up on the lift again and went to unscrew the rear 02 only to learn that it had been rusted into the bung, and that removing it ran the risk of stripping the threads and having to replace the whole section.
he suggested trying to find that main cat + rear 02 bung used off an org member/junk yard. obviously, we had to hold off on that experiment.
AS IT STANDS NOW:
i know ive read and heard from a variety of org members that sometimes adding an aftermarket y pipe can cause the 02 sensor to malfunction because so much extra air is now hitting it. then again, some of you drive around with your Y pipe with no CEL problems at all.
regardless, i just learned what an 02 simulator does and will plan on getting one if i cant figure out how to make this rear 02 stop reading as faulty.
anyway, i have no more idle issues, the car seems to drive fine, except i still have this starting issue, and i still am looking at this 0707 CEL all the time.
would a faulty rear 02 sensor cause this weird starting problem? why would it only happen when its warm? exhaust gases?
what i dont want is to spend money on a new rear bung/new rear 02 sensor and have this problem re-occur, in case there is actually something CAUSING the rear 02 sensor to read as faulty or in case this isnt even the problem to begin with.
im pretty ****ing pissed that ive spent this much already......
THE SUGGESTIONS:
im still not sure if this is from the Y pipe or spacer kit, or a combination of the two.
these are the suggestions ive gotten, both from org members and local people:
1) ECTS (engine coolant temperature sensor). this would most likely be throwing a code if it was broken, plus it would be pretty strange for this to coincidentally break on the same day i was putting all this aftermarket stuff on. the nissan mechanic who did this stuff with me said hes never seen one fail in over a decade.
2) Exhaust gases getting caught in the pipes (this is from the Autozone employee). basically, now that i have a high-flow y pipe, but the rest of my exhaust stock, the exhaust is getting caught up around the main cat and choking my car. this would make sense, because only when the car is warm would gases still be in there (when its cold, the gases have had time to dissipate) but, ive heard from a number of maxima owners who say they used an aftermarket Y with stock exhaust and had no problems.
3) Fouled Spark Plugs (from a guy i work with). he said when the car is warm, the oil is still consolidating down at the bottom of the crankcase, so its possible they saturate one or two of the plugs. when the engine is cold, all the oil has settled, and leaves all the plugs free to fire.
this doesnt really make that much sense, because a fouled plug is a fouled plug, and i would get starting issues all the time.
he said either that, or some kind of sensor issue.
4) two org members have said Bad Coil Packs, but this would cause misfiring right? and why would the start issue just happen when the engine is warm if one of the coils was bad all the time?
5) Grounding Issue. the org member that helped me with all these installs thinks that putting the spacers in has somehow eliminated a ground for the engine. he thinks that the upper IM and lower IM, that were touching before the spacer kit, ground off each other, and now that there is a plastic 1/4 spacer between them, they can no longer do that.
we ran a jerry-rigged grounding kit from the ECM grounds to the neg battery terminal (actually to try to fix the weird 02 code), but that hasnt done much. he said he would try grounding the bottom of the oil reservoir to the tranny case as well.
but why would this only happen when the engine is warm?
and then there are about 20 other org members with these spacers and no grounding problems.
6) Starter is dying from exhaust gases. Essential1 (a local org member who works at an autoshop) met me this weekend to check out the problem first hand. he seemed pretty sure it was the starter on its way out, but that doesnt explain why my car only has these weak starts when its warm.
he mentioned something about exhaust gases corrupting the starting solenoid, and that i would need to replace the starter alltogether, we well as put some sort of gas shield over the new starter solenoid. but if this is actually the problem, and my y pipe is spewing exhaust onto my starter, i dont want to just go replace the starter again - because in 6-12 months ill just have the same problem....
CONCLUSION:
im sorry this is so long, but i am ****ing stumped here. no one seems to be able to figure this out.
and quite frankly, knowing what i know now, and how much money ive dumped into these "bolt-on" mods, i would NEVER have done it.
the added power is no where near worth all these problems. i would have thought for 800 plus dollars of experimentation, i would be making my car stronger and faster, but it has made it weak and tempermental, for not that much more hp.
im pissed. i should have just left it stock.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,572
From: Middleboro/Carver, Ma
Aww **** man, I think I found out how to get my paypal (Kidding, kidding) But I never noticed you replaced a valve cover.
It's probably a vacuum leak, at the valve cover. The way our pcv works a bad leak in the crankcase anywhere, such as the valve cover or even the dipstick, will cause un-metered and unfiltered air to enter the engine.
Run to home depot, buy a 3" expandable freeze plug, drill a hole in it and put a vacuum line in the hole. Use an air compressor (and preferably a psi gauge, boost gauges work nice) to fill 'er up with about 10psi @ the maf. Use soapy water to find the leak. You might want to do this first and than once you know how to do it and are situated test again once things are hotter than my avatar.
Also, if you plug in a scanner, I would like to see what your short-term and long-term fuel trims are. I bet they are in the positive and > 10, especially during the conditions you are having your troubles.
(Kidding, kidding) But I never noticed you replaced a valve cover. It's probably a vacuum leak, at the valve cover. The way our pcv works a bad leak in the crankcase anywhere, such as the valve cover or even the dipstick, will cause un-metered and unfiltered air to enter the engine.
Run to home depot, buy a 3" expandable freeze plug, drill a hole in it and put a vacuum line in the hole. Use an air compressor (and preferably a psi gauge, boost gauges work nice) to fill 'er up with about 10psi @ the maf. Use soapy water to find the leak. You might want to do this first and than once you know how to do it and are situated test again once things are hotter than my avatar.
Also, if you plug in a scanner, I would like to see what your short-term and long-term fuel trims are. I bet they are in the positive and > 10, especially during the conditions you are having your troubles.
Last edited by KRRZ350; May 27, 2008 at 11:15 AM.
Aww **** man, I think I found out how to get my paypal (Kidding, kidding) But I never noticed you replaced a valve cover.
It's probably a vacuum leak, at the valve cover. The way our pcv works a bad leak in the crankcase anywhere, such as the valve cover or even the dipstick, will cause un-metered and unfiltered air to enter the engine.
Run to home depot, buy a 3" expandable freeze plug, drill a hole in it and put a vacuum line in the hole. Use an air compressor (and preferably a psi gauge, boost gauges work nice) to fill 'er up with about 10psi @ the maf. Use soapy water to find the leak. You might want to do this first and than once you know how to do it and are situated test again once things are hotter than my avatar.
Also, if you plug in a scanner, I would like to see what your short-term and long-term fuel trims are. I bet they are in the positive and > 10, especially during the conditions you are having your troubles.
(Kidding, kidding) But I never noticed you replaced a valve cover. It's probably a vacuum leak, at the valve cover. The way our pcv works a bad leak in the crankcase anywhere, such as the valve cover or even the dipstick, will cause un-metered and unfiltered air to enter the engine.
Run to home depot, buy a 3" expandable freeze plug, drill a hole in it and put a vacuum line in the hole. Use an air compressor (and preferably a psi gauge, boost gauges work nice) to fill 'er up with about 10psi @ the maf. Use soapy water to find the leak. You might want to do this first and than once you know how to do it and are situated test again once things are hotter than my avatar.
Also, if you plug in a scanner, I would like to see what your short-term and long-term fuel trims are. I bet they are in the positive and > 10, especially during the conditions you are having your troubles.
thanks kevin
im gonna have to wait at least a week before i get back into this problem (moving)
but i was at the dealership yesterday and talking to a tech there and he mentioned he thought it was the EGR stuck open.
ive searched a couple of threads here and on NICOclub and this warm starting issue seems to kind of happen to them too.
does a "stuck open EGR" sound like it could be the cause?
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,572
From: Middleboro/Carver, Ma
thanks kevin
im gonna have to wait at least a week before i get back into this problem (moving)
but i was at the dealership yesterday and talking to a tech there and he mentioned he thought it was the EGR stuck open.
ive searched a couple of threads here and on NICOclub and this warm starting issue seems to kind of happen to them too.
does a "stuck open EGR" sound like it could be the cause?
im gonna have to wait at least a week before i get back into this problem (moving)
but i was at the dealership yesterday and talking to a tech there and he mentioned he thought it was the EGR stuck open.
ive searched a couple of threads here and on NICOclub and this warm starting issue seems to kind of happen to them too.
does a "stuck open EGR" sound like it could be the cause?
A stuck open egr will essentially be a vacuum leak, so yes, it's definitly plausible. It will be a somewhat difficult one to check for, because if you pressurize the intake tract (while warm) you will need to rotate the engine several times to verify that it isn't just 1 cylinder on overlap (both intake and exhaust valves slightly open @ same time) causing pressure drop and an air sound exiting the exhaust.
Another way would be to moniter the egr temp sensor right after starting, OR better yet, IIRC there is an option in Consult-II to veiw that info much easier.
The fastest and quickest way would be to simply disconnect the single vacuum line on the valve itself, but causing it to stay shut might not nescascarily cause it to not stick open once it is warm, meaning it might not be getting stuck open - it might be getting pushed open and staying open, allthough it's not that likely and for simplicity you should start with this method with the swiftness, if you're familiar with exactly which one is the egr valve and depending on intake/airbox/filter assembly it could potentially be done in 10 seconds.
The EGR theory also makes excellent sense if your guide-tube or manifold was previously clogged and you happened to clean it during the spacer install, you might have made a pre-existing condition actually noticable.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,572
From: Middleboro/Carver, Ma
BTW, you're lucky I'm helping you. I'm serious. I've almost thrown down over your stupid avatar, we take it pretty serious up here in Boston. Change the av or I'm done here.
it was pointed out to me today that a black tuft of smoke comes out of my muffler when these weak-warm starts happen.
cat?
running rich?
i still have no codes...
im about ready to remove the spacer kit entirely.
cat?
running rich?
i still have no codes...
im about ready to remove the spacer kit entirely.
ive come to some conclusions over the past 8 weeks.
one is that I am running rich as a result of the spacers/y pipe. my MPG has gone from 21-22 mpg city to around 18....and that 18 is when i drive extremely gently, trying to keep it under 2k rpms at all times.
if i drove hard, plus used the AC and things like that, i suspect it would be somewhere around 16 - which is aweful.
another thing, which was only pointed out to me by Tallkid2201 when he happened to be standing behind my car during one of these weak warm starts, is that my exhaust shoots out a little tuft of black smoke upon ignition.
as i understand it, that is unburned fuel, and would go hand in hand with my loss in gas mileage.
last weekend i took it to tirekingdom and had a couple of techs there look at it. they seemed to think it had to do with the Y pipe/o2 sensors.
but i explained to them that the y-pipe is the most common peformance mod for these cars, and that i know quite a few people with zero problems.
wizard, have you heard of peoples gas mileage going DOWN after a y pipe?
it seems it should get better, not worse, because of hte lack of restriction by the forward cats.
is there any common reason i would be running rich after putting these spacers in?
have you ever heard of someone needing an SAFC after JUST a y pipe?
i thought those fuel management systems were for people with 00vis or mevis, turbos or superchargers.
anyway in two weekends im going to remove them from the engine entirely. if that doesnt work, immona put my stock y back on and go back to factory specs.
and if that doesnt work?
i dont know.....
Last edited by ROCKART; Jul 8, 2008 at 05:27 AM.