Hard starting, extremely hard and black smoke
08-30-2009, 06:36 PM
#1
Hard starting, extremely hard and black smoke
Refer to post #34, Problem still not solved:
K this is a long one lots of detail, no cliffs this time
If this is a problem with the motor(fuel injectors spark plugs something like that) its good news to me. What is happening is the car will turn over and over and over but will not start. eventually it will but its annoying and embarrassing, the battery has run out of juice from trying to start the car so many times
what normally use to happen when i went to go turn the key is the car would start to turn over then immediately stop as if there is not enough power or the motor siezed, u could physically feel the starter stop and i would sit there and go through the process of it instantly stopping a couple of times then at random it would turnover the way its suppose to and the car would fire up with out issue. this usually only happened when the car was cold
2 nights ago as some of u may know the headgasket took a **** i was driving and the car and it started running a little hot so i was coasting it down the road, when its moving the water temp would go down and then i would switch it off and let it coast etc. when i got the car to my friends house i parked it let it cool then when i went to turn it on so i could put it under some light to add coolant. i went to start the car and it turned over, and turned over and turned over and turned over, there were some cough as if it wanted to turn on but it didnt. it eventually started, now i moved it into the light but i had to turn it off again to add coolant. and repeat the turning over process
yesterday night i had to used the car with its long starting process, so i had my friend try and start it and everytime the car would turn over black smoke would come out of the exhaust coughs or no coughs, also it seems as if not all cylinders are firing when it does eventually starts up, and this has been an on going process its just now its extremely noticeable, it sounds like at idle its missing, if u watch the motor at idle its smooth then all of a sudden it shudders then smooths out then shudders again, sometimes it will do it twice a sec, other times it will shudder once then smooth out again, it will do this after about every 2 secs. This is directly after start up and for the first 5-7 mins of the car running regardless if its warmed up or not it will do this.
Before yesterday when u started driving it felt normal just idled weird, now it very jerky like power is being lost once i came to a light it feels like its about to die and u dont want it to die lol. but after 5 mins a driving it starts to idle much smoother and power comes on smooth with no jerking or anything.
Now i was guessing coilpacks but coilpacks there would be a hesitation when u put ur foot down almost every time regardless of the temp or how long the car has been driven. Somebody else suggested said MAF, but black smoke and it runs normally after a few? Any thoughts?
K this is a long one lots of detail, no cliffs this time
If this is a problem with the motor(fuel injectors spark plugs something like that) its good news to me. What is happening is the car will turn over and over and over but will not start. eventually it will but its annoying and embarrassing, the battery has run out of juice from trying to start the car so many times
what normally use to happen when i went to go turn the key is the car would start to turn over then immediately stop as if there is not enough power or the motor siezed, u could physically feel the starter stop and i would sit there and go through the process of it instantly stopping a couple of times then at random it would turnover the way its suppose to and the car would fire up with out issue. this usually only happened when the car was cold
2 nights ago as some of u may know the headgasket took a **** i was driving and the car and it started running a little hot so i was coasting it down the road, when its moving the water temp would go down and then i would switch it off and let it coast etc. when i got the car to my friends house i parked it let it cool then when i went to turn it on so i could put it under some light to add coolant. i went to start the car and it turned over, and turned over and turned over and turned over, there were some cough as if it wanted to turn on but it didnt. it eventually started, now i moved it into the light but i had to turn it off again to add coolant. and repeat the turning over process
yesterday night i had to used the car with its long starting process, so i had my friend try and start it and everytime the car would turn over black smoke would come out of the exhaust coughs or no coughs, also it seems as if not all cylinders are firing when it does eventually starts up, and this has been an on going process its just now its extremely noticeable, it sounds like at idle its missing, if u watch the motor at idle its smooth then all of a sudden it shudders then smooths out then shudders again, sometimes it will do it twice a sec, other times it will shudder once then smooth out again, it will do this after about every 2 secs. This is directly after start up and for the first 5-7 mins of the car running regardless if its warmed up or not it will do this.
Before yesterday when u started driving it felt normal just idled weird, now it very jerky like power is being lost once i came to a light it feels like its about to die and u dont want it to die lol. but after 5 mins a driving it starts to idle much smoother and power comes on smooth with no jerking or anything.
Now i was guessing coilpacks but coilpacks there would be a hesitation when u put ur foot down almost every time regardless of the temp or how long the car has been driven. Somebody else suggested said MAF, but black smoke and it runs normally after a few? Any thoughts?
Last edited by Crusher103; 09-22-2009 at 11:18 AM.
08-30-2009, 06:44 PM
#2
black so means your fuel pressure regulator is faulty, simple change try changing that and your fuel filter at the same time. should help you alot.
Fuel Pressure Regulator Failure Symptoms:
Fuel Pressure Regulator Failure Symptoms:
- Engine runs rough
- Engine stumbles or sputters
- Engine runs very rich - black smoke from the exhaust
- Engine will not start
- Engine starts but stalls shortly after startup
- Noisy fuel pump
- Noticeable decrease in fuel mileage
it was asking for it
08-31-2009, 01:05 AM
#4
This is going to sound weird but it might be your ignition switch.
I had some of the EXACT starting problems that I thought was the fuel pump, battery, alternator, starter. And I had all those replaced only to still have a rough start, like right when it tries to crank there is this loud crunching sound, almost like I turned the key to "START" again when the car is on. Then that situation slowly turned into the car "chocking" while cranking up, like it would crank then then you can hear the engine turn on, like the initial fuel explosion after its done cranking; and immediately after that the car dies and when I tried to start again it would turn over very slowly like as if my battery was dead, and then start up again throwing up a huge black smoke cloud along with a drop in RPM and sudden rise and drop again back to normal.
And after taking out my switch, there was a large gap in the little + shaped hole and so I decided "why not" and I doubted at first that the little gap in the switch would cause my car to sputter and die like that but I decided to stick and bunch of tape inside the hole until pushing it back into its original position was a little tight and then started it again. And volia! I couldn't believe my ears the car started without incident and I still can't believe I replaced all those wrong things. And according to my amateur analysis it seems like when I turned the key to start the ignition switch itself was actually somewhere between START and ACC and so it was cranking and turning off repeatedly which caused the engine to flood with fuel which might explain my black smoke?
Oh but the ignition switch probably isn't the cause of your engine shuddering though
I had some of the EXACT starting problems that I thought was the fuel pump, battery, alternator, starter. And I had all those replaced only to still have a rough start, like right when it tries to crank there is this loud crunching sound, almost like I turned the key to "START" again when the car is on. Then that situation slowly turned into the car "chocking" while cranking up, like it would crank then then you can hear the engine turn on, like the initial fuel explosion after its done cranking; and immediately after that the car dies and when I tried to start again it would turn over very slowly like as if my battery was dead, and then start up again throwing up a huge black smoke cloud along with a drop in RPM and sudden rise and drop again back to normal.
And after taking out my switch, there was a large gap in the little + shaped hole and so I decided "why not" and I doubted at first that the little gap in the switch would cause my car to sputter and die like that but I decided to stick and bunch of tape inside the hole until pushing it back into its original position was a little tight and then started it again. And volia! I couldn't believe my ears the car started without incident and I still can't believe I replaced all those wrong things. And according to my amateur analysis it seems like when I turned the key to start the ignition switch itself was actually somewhere between START and ACC and so it was cranking and turning off repeatedly which caused the engine to flood with fuel which might explain my black smoke?
Oh but the ignition switch probably isn't the cause of your engine shuddering though
Last edited by Leo_Koneval; 08-31-2009 at 01:10 AM.
08-31-2009, 07:12 AM
#6
As of the past week or so, I have been getting the same starting issue the op describes as the engine feels almost like it is siezed, and you feel the starter motor stop. I don't get any smoke, and usually the second try it fires right up.
Zack
Zack
08-31-2009, 09:26 AM
#7
the headgasket blew along time ago(like 4 months ago), am not too concerned about it either what i was saying was some people may know that my headgasket is blown already. it actually runs fine it and pulls strong just eats alot of coolant. motor swap is coming soon i just needed to know if this was a problem that would be fixed with the new motor or if i have to buy something else to get it working
08-31-2009, 04:18 PM
#8
. Probably makes sense to take care of that asap.
08-31-2009, 07:44 PM
#10
08-31-2009, 07:50 PM
#11
im getting another motor soon, and since this car wont start im not driving it. If the head is not warped and all kinds of crazies going on in it, i might build the old one try and raise the compression clean into the 12:X range
09-09-2009, 08:16 PM
#15
changed the fuel pressure regulator&fuel pump and i had to get a new starter and its doing it again, except this time i noticed smoke coming from under the hood and it smelled as if something was frying
09-09-2009, 08:37 PM
#16
OMG STOP
DO NOT spend any more money on this until you replace the head gaskets or motor. You just bought a starter and fuel pump for no reason, how much did this set you back? PLEASE stop throwing money at a dead car, your not gonna make anything better with parts.
09-09-2009, 08:56 PM
#17
A blown headgasket isnt going to stop the car from starting, and if it does the motor will seize completely, i just came back from driving the thing but it was a b!tch to get it started. I want to know what this is before believing i have fixed the problem by just swapping the motor when in fact thats not the case
09-10-2009, 07:23 AM
#19
i had to take mom dukes to work this morning and luckily it started on the 2nd try.
09-10-2009, 09:53 PM
#22
Wow it seems like your problem is bigger than we thought! Where is Pmohr!
09-10-2009, 10:06 PM
#23
Actually after trying to imagine the process our engine goes through I think your car might be hydrolocked as well!
"If you suspect a hydrolock condition and you have a manual transmission then put the transmission into second gear, turn the key to free the steering but not all the way to ignition, then push the car backwards while in-gear. This will force any water in the cylinders out of the engine and into the exhaust manifold as it spins the engine in the opposite direction.
I suppose you could put the manual transmission in reverse, turn the key and push the car forward as that would spin the engine in the opposite direction too."
And for your head gasket I think since you are getting a totally new engine I think it might not hurt to try Steel Seal and here is a video about it from someone who I think is competent enough to be trusted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3suQy44G_B0
And here is probably the reason for your coolant going down and the hydrolock we are all talking about
Another reason for it to occur is in the event of the head gasket cracking or "blowing," which causes the radiator coolant to leak into the combustion chamber.
Fuel entering one or more cylinders due to carburetor flooding or other causes can cause an engine to hydrolock, although this is relatively rare.
"If you suspect a hydrolock condition and you have a manual transmission then put the transmission into second gear, turn the key to free the steering but not all the way to ignition, then push the car backwards while in-gear. This will force any water in the cylinders out of the engine and into the exhaust manifold as it spins the engine in the opposite direction.
I suppose you could put the manual transmission in reverse, turn the key and push the car forward as that would spin the engine in the opposite direction too."
And for your head gasket I think since you are getting a totally new engine I think it might not hurt to try Steel Seal and here is a video about it from someone who I think is competent enough to be trusted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3suQy44G_B0
And here is probably the reason for your coolant going down and the hydrolock we are all talking about
Another reason for it to occur is in the event of the head gasket cracking or "blowing," which causes the radiator coolant to leak into the combustion chamber.
Fuel entering one or more cylinders due to carburetor flooding or other causes can cause an engine to hydrolock, although this is relatively rare.
Last edited by Leo_Koneval; 09-10-2009 at 10:08 PM.
09-11-2009, 04:18 AM
#24
thats what im wondering he is always a wizard at this ****.
09-11-2009, 04:30 AM
#25
ok im trying to make up my mind on what to do here, i might try that headgasket cheap fix see if it helps i really dont want to use it because if my head is not warped i would like to take that motor apart and build it. but as of now i have enough money for a 3.0 and i can replace it on monday, but if i wait for one more week i will have enough for a 3.5 but i really dont like the 3.5s for some reason. but they are obviously the better platform all round decisions......
09-11-2009, 06:55 AM
#26
MAN! I just bought a 98 Max with a 3.5 swap...and prior to it I a 95 se max...both 5spds..that 3.5 is the SHIZZZNIIZZZ
...wouldnt trade it for the world...and it's only my opinion but i would bet you would be much happier with the 3.5.
...wouldnt trade it for the world...and it's only my opinion but i would bet you would be much happier with the 3.5.
09-11-2009, 12:41 PM
#27
ok im trying to make up my mind on what to do here, i might try that headgasket cheap fix see if it helps i really dont want to use it because if my head is not warped i would like to take that motor apart and build it. but as of now i have enough money for a 3.0 and i can replace it on monday, but if i wait for one more week i will have enough for a 3.5 but i really dont like the 3.5s for some reason. but they are obviously the better platform all round decisions......
I am not really sure if Steel Seal is sold anywhere
I tried looking in some local auto stores and couldn't find anything, and when searching on here, there are only two threads about Steel Seal and no one believed in its magical properties.Although the 3.5 looks COOOL, you should make sure to find a engine that you are happy with ASAP because if I am right (Which most likely won't happen) then coolant is in the engine and each time you try to start your car after it dies you are doing damage to the thingy-ma-bobbers.
Good luck! And we should come up with a giant light with a PMOHR shade on it, so that whenever someone is in distress we'll shine that giant light up into the clouds and Pmohr will see the PMOHR signal and come to the rescue.... like batman...
09-11-2009, 02:48 PM
#28
ok but seriously still trying to pin point the problem, i have noticed everytime i mess with the fuel system pretty much releasing the pressure in the system like changing the FPR, or changing the fuel filter the car starts fine a couple of times then goes back to the BS any clues to what it is? injectors maybe?
09-11-2009, 03:34 PM
#30
not yet
again just went outside, took the FPR off, let the fuel out of the fuel rail and the first time i cranked it, it started right away, i turned it off and tried it again with out taking the FPR off and no dice turned over and black smoke so im guessing its the FPR maybe i have a faulty one
again just went outside, took the FPR off, let the fuel out of the fuel rail and the first time i cranked it, it started right away, i turned it off and tried it again with out taking the FPR off and no dice turned over and black smoke so im guessing its the FPR maybe i have a faulty one
09-11-2009, 04:12 PM
#31
not yet
again just went outside, took the FPR off, let the fuel out of the fuel rail and the first time i cranked it, it started right away, i turned it off and tried it again with out taking the FPR off and no dice turned over and black smoke so im guessing its the FPR maybe i have a faulty one
again just went outside, took the FPR off, let the fuel out of the fuel rail and the first time i cranked it, it started right away, i turned it off and tried it again with out taking the FPR off and no dice turned over and black smoke so im guessing its the FPR maybe i have a faulty one
Does FPR stand for fuel pressure regulator? I think that should be easy to replace if I remember correctly
09-11-2009, 08:33 PM
#32
Lets hope its that ONE thing and not a bunch of problems combined. Although, the busted head gasket and the need to constantly top off coolant does sound like it is hydro locking from coolant getting into the engine, but it gets better from you taking off the FPR, so I guess its back to the drawing board
Does FPR stand for fuel pressure regulator? I think that should be easy to replace if I remember correctly
Does FPR stand for fuel pressure regulator? I think that should be easy to replace if I remember correctly
09-12-2009, 12:46 AM
#33
May the force be with you! While you change your regulator I am going to try and cook up another scheme to see if it helps fix the problem.
Pmohr is right so often, I want to correctly help someone fix their problem at least ONCE, damn it!!
Pmohr is right so often, I want to correctly help someone fix their problem at least ONCE, damn it!!
09-22-2009, 11:17 AM
#34
k still struggling here look and it doesnt look good, the starter was replaced again yesterday under warranty and right after i installed it the car started every time, it was hard to believe, so im like ok well thats that, park the car, later on i go to start the car and i turn the key the start spins then it does a momentary pause and it starts spinning again and the car starts.
Only one problem my start is still trying to start the car, the key is in the ON position not the START position. So i quickly turn the car off and to my shock the starter is still sitting there spinning Key is out and the car is off, its still turning over, luckily i had installed tooless battery terminals so it took less then 5 secs to get the terminals off. i put the terminals back in after the starter stopped and we were back to square one, it sits there and turns over but doesnt start black smoke and all, and it took even longer then before to get it started so im guessing an electrical issue.
Can somebody plz help me here, im not going to swap this motor until i can find out why this thing wont start when i want it too, The Head gasket IS NOT THE PROBLEM so dont tell me about replacing it.
Only one problem my start is still trying to start the car, the key is in the ON position not the START position. So i quickly turn the car off and to my shock the starter is still sitting there spinning Key is out and the car is off, its still turning over, luckily i had installed tooless battery terminals so it took less then 5 secs to get the terminals off. i put the terminals back in after the starter stopped and we were back to square one, it sits there and turns over but doesnt start black smoke and all, and it took even longer then before to get it started so im guessing an electrical issue.
Can somebody plz help me here, im not going to swap this motor until i can find out why this thing wont start when i want it too, The Head gasket IS NOT THE PROBLEM so dont tell me about replacing it.
Last edited by Crusher103; 09-22-2009 at 11:20 AM.
09-22-2009, 11:32 AM
#35
Definitely sounds like an electrical problem. Good luck, as electrical gremlins are the worst to track down.
Have you checked/changed your oil lately? I ask because with your blown HG, your mixing coolant and oil. As you know already, this is bad for the motor.
Put her up on jackstands and turn the crank for a few revolutions. Does it turn easily and consistently throughout the whole revolution?
I fail to see why you are trying so hard to keep a bad motor going. Your explanation doesn't really make much sense. You're affecting the other parts too you know. Just do the swap already, then go from there. Your approach just might be backwards/fighting an uphill battle.
Have you checked/changed your oil lately? I ask because with your blown HG, your mixing coolant and oil. As you know already, this is bad for the motor.
Put her up on jackstands and turn the crank for a few revolutions. Does it turn easily and consistently throughout the whole revolution?
I fail to see why you are trying so hard to keep a bad motor going. Your explanation doesn't really make much sense. You're affecting the other parts too you know. Just do the swap already, then go from there. Your approach just might be backwards/fighting an uphill battle.
09-22-2009, 11:38 AM
#36
oil was changed like 2-3 week
the motor seems to spin freely thou, its a pause as if the power to the starter just got cut.
the reason i want to get it done is because i dont want to deal with a strange starting issues with a 3.5 coming. that could be an even bigger b!tch to get started and working properly
the motor seems to spin freely thou, its a pause as if the power to the starter just got cut.
the reason i want to get it done is because i dont want to deal with a strange starting issues with a 3.5 coming. that could be an even bigger b!tch to get started and working properly
09-22-2009, 11:47 AM
#37
earlier today i took the ignition out and was playing around with it, im not sure if i have to replace it or not, i took it apart and it looked normal to me...
i took a look at were the terminals had been touching the groves in the copper plates and noting looked unusual, put it back together and started the car, for the first 2-3 times it started on the first try put it was acting funny, then started doing the BS again.
i took a look at were the terminals had been touching the groves in the copper plates and noting looked unusual, put it back together and started the car, for the first 2-3 times it started on the first try put it was acting funny, then started doing the BS again.
09-22-2009, 12:30 PM
#38
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 222
First sorry, Im working I have no time to read your post, I hope it can help you, I really understand your feeling about this problem....
After doing everything on this board, my car did like your.
What I did (and it worked!!) : unbolt what you can of the tranny screws. Sand all the galvanized stuff on it. Try to sand the inner filet too.
Use diaelectric grease and put the srews back.
Hope its a new answer... lol . Cost nothing.
good luck
After doing everything on this board, my car did like your.
What I did (and it worked!!) : unbolt what you can of the tranny screws. Sand all the galvanized stuff on it. Try to sand the inner filet too.
Use diaelectric grease and put the srews back.
Hope its a new answer... lol . Cost nothing.
good luck
