Why don't we sue Nissan for our 15hp? (2k2 Guys)
11-13-2002, 04:45 AM
#41
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Originally posted by Young04
definitely. i think we can get a class action suit going. i'm definitely down.
definitely. i think we can get a class action suit going. i'm definitely down.
so this is a way bigger deal then a lot of you guys think, ford had to fix what 6000 SVT's what's nissan gonna do to fix the 100,000 2k2-2k3 maximas
i'll look around today for what's the next step we should take but keep those dynoes coming. i'm sure once this gets going further we could just take a stock auto altima and a stock auto maxima and strap them down at the same time and watch them both spit out 197hp and see what nissan has to say about that.
11-13-2002, 04:52 AM
#43
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Join Date: May 2002
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Originally posted by pezking4
Sue Nissan, so Nissan loses money, in turn has to use cheaper parts and products in the future. My gosh, how much worse can they make the trannys if they didn't have as much money?
Sue Nissan, so Nissan loses money, in turn has to use cheaper parts and products in the future. My gosh, how much worse can they make the trannys if they didn't have as much money?
the american market has evolved to the point where consumers almost blindly believe any manufacturer's claim. only in this country would someone respond to a claim of misrepresentation with, "oohhh, let's think of the COMPANY, it's ok that they were LYING...let's go for a fishing expedition to excuse them with whatever baseless justification possible". this flies in the face of good american business, and there is no reason to give nissan positive reinforcement for LYING so that it may do this AGAIN. THAT will actually hurt nissan MORE in the long run, than if we sue for claim of misrepresentation - since you're so concerned about the welfare of an international company.
point is...if there is verity to the hp claim, there is no reason that nissan shouldn't be inculpated for this. they knowingly and in bad faith misrepresented their product.
that being said, are there any practicing attorneys on this forum who could at least give us a preliminary read on whether we have grounds to sue? i'm thinking class action.
11-13-2002, 04:55 AM
#44
Re: Why don't we sue Nissan for our 15hp? (2k2 Guys)
Originally posted by dmbmaxima2k2
SR20 and i have been talking and we came onto HP numbers of the G and Z and we're talking about how nissan makes up HP numbers to suit whatever they feel is good at the time and came back to how bad we got screwed with our HP numbers over the altima. So we said, let's sue nissan. I just read an article where some hyundai's were off a few hp and they gave everyone that owned one an extended warranty or something. I think we should try for something but what we need is mostly dynoes and the best are gonna be automatic and stock. This will leave no room for arguement on the 6-spd losing more then the altima 5-spd. they are the same auto tranny. So, thoughts?? ideas??? please post your stock auto 2k2 dynoes here and anyone else with a stock 2k2 dyno do so as well and notate your transmission of choice. i'l gonna start looking for the altima dyno and we'll see if we can do anything with this info. I don't know about you guys but i'd really love to stick one to Nissan for the exceptional service they give. lol. let's go guys.
SR20 and i have been talking and we came onto HP numbers of the G and Z and we're talking about how nissan makes up HP numbers to suit whatever they feel is good at the time and came back to how bad we got screwed with our HP numbers over the altima. So we said, let's sue nissan. I just read an article where some hyundai's were off a few hp and they gave everyone that owned one an extended warranty or something. I think we should try for something but what we need is mostly dynoes and the best are gonna be automatic and stock. This will leave no room for arguement on the 6-spd losing more then the altima 5-spd. they are the same auto tranny. So, thoughts?? ideas??? please post your stock auto 2k2 dynoes here and anyone else with a stock 2k2 dyno do so as well and notate your transmission of choice. i'l gonna start looking for the altima dyno and we'll see if we can do anything with this info. I don't know about you guys but i'd really love to stick one to Nissan for the exceptional service they give. lol. let's go guys.
11-13-2002, 05:05 AM
#45
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Originally posted by Young04
like dmbmax said, you're missing the issue, and you're assuming your point. i agree with everything in his post. if nissan is/was in financial trouble, that should be an incentive NOT to employ poor business tactics. I was on the eclipse forum the other day, and people were going off about how the maxima is the worst in terms of power loss, etc etc.
the american market has evolved to the point where consumers almost blindly believe any manufacturer's claim. only in this country would someone respond to a claim of misrepresentation with, "oohhh, let's think of the COMPANY, it's ok that they were LYING...let's go for a fishing expedition to excuse them with whatever baseless justification possible". this flies in the face of good american business, and there is no reason to give nissan positive reinforcement for LYING so that it may do this AGAIN. THAT will actually hurt nissan MORE in the long run, than if we sue for claim of misrepresentation - since you're so concerned about the welfare of an international company.
point is...if there is verity to the hp claim, there is no reason that nissan shouldn't be inculpated for this. they knowingly and in bad faith misrepresented their product.
that being said, are there any practicing attorneys on this forum who could at least give us a preliminary read on whether we have grounds to sue? i'm thinking class action.
like dmbmax said, you're missing the issue, and you're assuming your point. i agree with everything in his post. if nissan is/was in financial trouble, that should be an incentive NOT to employ poor business tactics. I was on the eclipse forum the other day, and people were going off about how the maxima is the worst in terms of power loss, etc etc.
the american market has evolved to the point where consumers almost blindly believe any manufacturer's claim. only in this country would someone respond to a claim of misrepresentation with, "oohhh, let's think of the COMPANY, it's ok that they were LYING...let's go for a fishing expedition to excuse them with whatever baseless justification possible". this flies in the face of good american business, and there is no reason to give nissan positive reinforcement for LYING so that it may do this AGAIN. THAT will actually hurt nissan MORE in the long run, than if we sue for claim of misrepresentation - since you're so concerned about the welfare of an international company.
point is...if there is verity to the hp claim, there is no reason that nissan shouldn't be inculpated for this. they knowingly and in bad faith misrepresented their product.
that being said, are there any practicing attorneys on this forum who could at least give us a preliminary read on whether we have grounds to sue? i'm thinking class action.
and kronman, that a good point you made and exactly what i was getting at, how mnay people payed a premium for a maxima because they heard 15 hp more. lots i'm sure.
11-13-2002, 06:04 AM
#50
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Originally posted by dmbmaxima2k2
with ford i know there was just talk of the decreased hp and i think they admitted it a fixed all the cars. and i'll check for a crank dyno machine but they are rare and expensive and it's HARD to do also. i don't think any other car enthusiats had to sue but nissan is nissan and they won't admit anything i'm sure.
with ford i know there was just talk of the decreased hp and i think they admitted it a fixed all the cars. and i'll check for a crank dyno machine but they are rare and expensive and it's HARD to do also. i don't think any other car enthusiats had to sue but nissan is nissan and they won't admit anything i'm sure.
Personally I agree with AznWontonboy I don't think it's worth it. The torque numbers are the same so the 15 HP difference is nominal in my opinion.
11-13-2002, 06:12 AM
#52
Originally posted by pezking4
Good comment about the intake claims. But something about sueing a car company over claimed hp and torque kinda makes me feel the same way when I think abou the woman sueing McDonalds because her coffee is too hot. I know that the argument next will be; they took advantage of us, why can't we take advantage of them. Aren't you happy with your car? If yes, I would personally just leave it at that, but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Good comment about the intake claims. But something about sueing a car company over claimed hp and torque kinda makes me feel the same way when I think abou the woman sueing McDonalds because her coffee is too hot. I know that the argument next will be; they took advantage of us, why can't we take advantage of them. Aren't you happy with your car? If yes, I would personally just leave it at that, but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
11-13-2002, 07:17 AM
#53
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit Metro Area
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All Nissan has to do is show a Dyno with 255HP at the crank and we will all lose. Or they could show some numbers from a Dyno in a windtunnel that show their stock CAI delivers the extra power when the car is moving.
I want my rated HP just as much as the rest of you, but I'm not convinced that we're missing it.
Stereodude
I want my rated HP just as much as the rest of you, but I'm not convinced that we're missing it.
Stereodude
11-13-2002, 07:33 AM
#54
Originally posted by dmbmaxima2k2
exactly, the only problem is i don't know the next step there had gotta be a lawyer floating around on the forums somewhere. and like one person said we're gonna need exact dynoes, once this gets going i'd be willing to chip in a few bucks and i'm sure plenty of other owners would too, 10 bucks each grab a stock auto altima and a stock auto maxima at random and dyno then same day same machine and watch them spit out the same numbers and get it all on video ect.....
and kronman, that a good point you made and exactly what i was getting at, how mnay people payed a premium for a maxima because they heard 15 hp more. lots i'm sure.
exactly, the only problem is i don't know the next step there had gotta be a lawyer floating around on the forums somewhere. and like one person said we're gonna need exact dynoes, once this gets going i'd be willing to chip in a few bucks and i'm sure plenty of other owners would too, 10 bucks each grab a stock auto altima and a stock auto maxima at random and dyno then same day same machine and watch them spit out the same numbers and get it all on video ect.....
and kronman, that a good point you made and exactly what i was getting at, how mnay people payed a premium for a maxima because they heard 15 hp more. lots i'm sure.
I mean you saying that hp on Maxima is overrated right and I think Emax was saying torque is underatted?
Damn I am confused with this 3.5L engine.
Same thing goes for G35 sedan that supposedly has 260hp, what does it really have?
11-13-2002, 07:38 AM
#55
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 239
Originally posted by SR20DEN
But don't get me wrong. Im not out to get the better of Nissan, hurt them, make them look bad or extort them for cash or goods. As most of you I only want that extra 15hp that I paid for and was promised.
But don't get me wrong. Im not out to get the better of Nissan, hurt them, make them look bad or extort them for cash or goods. As most of you I only want that extra 15hp that I paid for and was promised.
The TRUTH is that we were MISLEAD in believing that our cars have 255 hp, and that the Altima has 240hp. It is very important to note that the 255 hp (promised) on the Max was (arguably) the basis of their whole marketing campaign on the car. This is SIGNIFICANT, and inexcusable.
"All we want is the 15hp that we paid for."
11-13-2002, 07:47 AM
#56
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 22
Ford is funny... if they want to claim a +15 increase on the new models, they just decrease the HP of the old models for hte model year preceeding the new generation. They did this with the 99/2000 switch over. The duratec engines on the 96-mid 99 taurus were running a 10:1 compression with 200HP. In mid '99, they changed the compression to 9.5:1 or something like that and lost 15 HP or so off the engine so that the '99s only had 185 HP. Then they brought it back up to 10:1 for the Gen 4's (2000+) and Bam! "The 2000 Ford Taurus put down 200 HP, up 15 HP from the previous model year". Come on now Ford, you aren't foolin' anyone!
-Dan
-Dan
11-13-2002, 08:07 AM
#58
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 956
.org,
I agree that you should get what you pay for (255hp is 255hp not 240hp) but, there's also a saying that goes "it's not what you know, its what you can prove".
ie. You would have to duplicate nissan's testing setup and conditions when they dyno'ed the engine. Then if the results that Nissan got (255) is not reproduceable (falls short, less than or equal 240hp) then you have a case. This seems simple but requires dollars to do the testing and then dollars to get a consumer group/gov agency/right lawyers on your side.
The other question left is, how far are you guys willing to go to get nissan to fix this? Count how many 2K2 - 2K3 were produced. Nissan would have to fix these also. You can bet your SHIFT_*** Nissan will bring out the belt fed machine gun. They cannot afford to lose.
I don't want to discourage you guys, hell I'd like to see the .org get some satisfaction from Nissan for once. We are more than overdue with brakes and paint issues that scream SHIFT_nissan_qa_sucks, but be prepared to fight the good fight
pfssh
woosh
I agree that you should get what you pay for (255hp is 255hp not 240hp) but, there's also a saying that goes "it's not what you know, its what you can prove".
ie. You would have to duplicate nissan's testing setup and conditions when they dyno'ed the engine. Then if the results that Nissan got (255) is not reproduceable (falls short, less than or equal 240hp) then you have a case. This seems simple but requires dollars to do the testing and then dollars to get a consumer group/gov agency/right lawyers on your side.
The other question left is, how far are you guys willing to go to get nissan to fix this? Count how many 2K2 - 2K3 were produced. Nissan would have to fix these also. You can bet your SHIFT_*** Nissan will bring out the belt fed machine gun. They cannot afford to lose.
I don't want to discourage you guys, hell I'd like to see the .org get some satisfaction from Nissan for once. We are more than overdue with brakes and paint issues that scream SHIFT_nissan_qa_sucks, but be prepared to fight the good fight
pfssh
woosh
11-13-2002, 08:11 AM
#59
Originally posted by johnvt1111
I am in a business law class, and we discussed and read about this case. The lady was at fault, but since McDonalds didn't put a warning on the coffee cup, "HOT", or "Will cause extreme burns if spilt", McDonalds was liable, and had to pay the woman MILLIONS! That case is not relevant to this topic....totally different subject matter. I told steve he should contact my dad, he's delt with Nissans alot, bought my 1999 se-l and bought a q-45 for himself from nissan.
I am in a business law class, and we discussed and read about this case. The lady was at fault, but since McDonalds didn't put a warning on the coffee cup, "HOT", or "Will cause extreme burns if spilt", McDonalds was liable, and had to pay the woman MILLIONS! That case is not relevant to this topic....totally different subject matter. I told steve he should contact my dad, he's delt with Nissans alot, bought my 1999 se-l and bought a q-45 for himself from nissan.
) what most people dont know is that the McDonalds purposely kept their coffee about 30 degrees hotter than they were supposed to. they kept it at like 180 and it was only supposed to be at 150. or something like that. they did that because McDonalds had studies that showed hotter coffee brought in more money (its just marketing, right?
thats why she won; because McDonald's knowingly broke the rules to make more money and figured it wouldnt come back to haunt them. Nissan did the same. they knowingly deceived their customers.
11-13-2002, 08:24 AM
#60
Originally posted by Dany
Steve, do you think your new G35 coupe actually has 270hp?
I mean you saying that hp on Maxima is overrated right and I think Emax was saying torque is underatted?
Damn I am confused with this 3.5L engine.
Same thing goes for G35 sedan that supposedly has 260hp, what does it really have?
Steve, do you think your new G35 coupe actually has 270hp?
I mean you saying that hp on Maxima is overrated right and I think Emax was saying torque is underatted?
Damn I am confused with this 3.5L engine.
Same thing goes for G35 sedan that supposedly has 260hp, what does it really have?
11-13-2002, 08:34 AM
#61
Originally posted by johnvt1111
I am in a business law class, and we discussed and read about this case. The lady was at fault, but since McDonalds didn't put a warning on the coffee cup, "HOT", or "Will cause extreme burns if spilt", McDonalds was liable, and had to pay the woman MILLIONS! That case is not relevant to this topic....totally different subject matter. I told steve he should contact my dad, he's delt with Nissans alot, bought my 1999 se-l and bought a q-45 for himself from nissan.
I am in a business law class, and we discussed and read about this case. The lady was at fault, but since McDonalds didn't put a warning on the coffee cup, "HOT", or "Will cause extreme burns if spilt", McDonalds was liable, and had to pay the woman MILLIONS! That case is not relevant to this topic....totally different subject matter. I told steve he should contact my dad, he's delt with Nissans alot, bought my 1999 se-l and bought a q-45 for himself from nissan.
11-13-2002, 08:35 AM
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 574
I am interested to see how far this thing goes...
Mine is auto and is stock engine/tranny/exhaust wise, only upgrades are aesthetic and handling. I haven't dyno'ed mine but I would be interested to see the numbers for those comparable to mine. It would take one ballsy lawyer to take us as clients...
Mine is auto and is stock engine/tranny/exhaust wise, only upgrades are aesthetic and handling. I haven't dyno'ed mine but I would be interested to see the numbers for those comparable to mine. It would take one ballsy lawyer to take us as clients...
11-13-2002, 08:36 AM
#64
This thread reminds me of those potential group deals on the Skyline body kit. EVERYONE wants in. But no one will actually get up and do anything about it. Not to rain on the parade, but until the dyno numbers are actually done on MULTIPLE stock vehicles, there is nothing you can do. And I have a feeling that it's going to take a while for someone to dyno their stock cars........
11-13-2002, 08:45 AM
#65
Originally posted by asu174
This thread reminds me of those potential group deals on the Skyline body kit. EVERYONE wants in. But no one will actually get up and do anything about it. Not to rain on the parade, but until the dyno numbers are actually done on MULTIPLE stock vehicles, there is nothing you can do. And I have a feeling that it's going to take a while for someone to dyno their stock cars........
This thread reminds me of those potential group deals on the Skyline body kit. EVERYONE wants in. But no one will actually get up and do anything about it. Not to rain on the parade, but until the dyno numbers are actually done on MULTIPLE stock vehicles, there is nothing you can do. And I have a feeling that it's going to take a while for someone to dyno their stock cars........
Maybe this is not true, but most of the people that think we should let it go are the ones that don't own 2k2-2k3. so i guess in that perspective, they don't really know how we truely feels
11-13-2002, 08:49 AM
#66
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 780
Originally posted by Newman
horsepower is a number that can be measured. the taste of dr pepper and windows making life easier cant be measured. horsepower isnt an opinion its a mathematical fact. its like buying a set of 25 pound dumb bells that only weigh 15 pounds. you didnt get what you paid for and they cant dispute that. when they use 255 horsepower in their commercials as a selling point it very well SHOULD be the truth.
horsepower is a number that can be measured. the taste of dr pepper and windows making life easier cant be measured. horsepower isnt an opinion its a mathematical fact. its like buying a set of 25 pound dumb bells that only weigh 15 pounds. you didnt get what you paid for and they cant dispute that. when they use 255 horsepower in their commercials as a selling point it very well SHOULD be the truth.
11-13-2002, 08:57 AM
#67
Originally posted by BioMaxDDS
most of the people that think we should let it go are the ones that don't own 2k2-2k3. so i guess in that perspective, they don't really know how we truely feels
most of the people that think we should let it go are the ones that don't own 2k2-2k3. so i guess in that perspective, they don't really know how we truely feels
11-13-2002, 09:03 AM
#68
Originally posted by asu174
I actualy WISH I owned a 2K2 now so I could start some $hit. There's nothing I love more than arguing with companies over "principles". I'm just saying that people in this forum are all talk. I'd be setting up my dyno appt. right now if I had a 2k2....and it was still stock.
I actualy WISH I owned a 2K2 now so I could start some $hit. There's nothing I love more than arguing with companies over "principles". I'm just saying that people in this forum are all talk. I'd be setting up my dyno appt. right now if I had a 2k2....and it was still stock.
11-13-2002, 09:16 AM
#70
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,968
Face it gang...all they need do is supply (as has been mentioned) a number of stock vehicles that DO dyno to what is advertised, then claim that others can be higher or lower due to tolerances during manufacture.
Let's get real here...if we can't get a straight answer and remedy to the paint problem that is readily apparent and pervasive, what the heck does anyone here really think is going to be the outcome of this?
Let's get real here...if we can't get a straight answer and remedy to the paint problem that is readily apparent and pervasive, what the heck does anyone here really think is going to be the outcome of this?
11-13-2002, 09:21 AM
#71
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,154
Ladies/Gents,
I am definately in, if it comes down that we have to donate money, I will be one of the first to break my check book. It is not a good feeling, when you fell that you have been "had". I bought my Max over the Alti, because of HP also. I really wish that we had some lawyers or someone that knows a lawyer that we can find out who we need to take this to? Cmon people lets get the ball rolling.
For all the other people that feel that we should just shut up and live with it, well everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the next time you go to a resturant and your order does not come out the way you ordered it, don't complain just eat it!!!!
I am definately in, if it comes down that we have to donate money, I will be one of the first to break my check book. It is not a good feeling, when you fell that you have been "had". I bought my Max over the Alti, because of HP also. I really wish that we had some lawyers or someone that knows a lawyer that we can find out who we need to take this to? Cmon people lets get the ball rolling.
For all the other people that feel that we should just shut up and live with it, well everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the next time you go to a resturant and your order does not come out the way you ordered it, don't complain just eat it!!!!
11-13-2002, 09:22 AM
#72
Originally posted by jjs
Let's get real here...if we can't get a straight answer and remedy to the paint problem that is readily apparent and pervasive, what the heck does anyone here really think is going to be the outcome of this?
Let's get real here...if we can't get a straight answer and remedy to the paint problem that is readily apparent and pervasive, what the heck does anyone here really think is going to be the outcome of this?
11-13-2002, 09:35 AM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 284
hmmm...
mine is still bone stock in terms of engine mods and wheels/tires...
heck it still has the stock air filter....
got about 13k miles on it since buying it in jan 02...
anyone know of a place in sacramento cali area that i can get it dynoed? if you do please pass on the info...
i haven't much to complaint but heck if i ain't getting what i really paid for then i'll do what it takes to get it. Esecially with something that can be quantified physically and mathematically with a simple test.
heck it still has the stock air filter....
got about 13k miles on it since buying it in jan 02...
anyone know of a place in sacramento cali area that i can get it dynoed? if you do please pass on the info...
i haven't much to complaint but heck if i ain't getting what i really paid for then i'll do what it takes to get it. Esecially with something that can be quantified physically and mathematically with a simple test.
11-13-2002, 09:46 AM
#75
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,216
Here's an idea that may or may not work, not sure. But, what if we contact a car magazine (i.e. Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc etc) and tell them to look into this. They have their own dyno equipment and they can take stock cars from Nissan perform the tests. I think they may be interested in doing this test because it would definitely draw readers, since a lot of Maximas are being sold.
Also, getting stock Maximas should not be a problem if this case gets rolling. Think about it, if this stuff hits the news, then all Maxima owners will see it, and a lot of Maxs remain stock, so those people will bring them in for tests or what not.
Also, what about contacting a consumer watchdog, they may be interested in this since there are a lot of people possibly affected. I think one of these watchdogs is the Better Business Bureau, and they may be interested. If anyone has contacts with any of these places (bureaus, magazines), try to contact them and maybe even show them this thread so that they can see the dissatisfaction.
I totally agree about doing something about this problem. It's not like we bought a $10 item, and something is wrong with it. These are $25-30K cars, and that's a LOT of money for most people. Secondly, the principle behind this is important. As someone mentioned, if this is not stopped, then Nissan will continue to overestimate their horsepower and run bogus ad campaigns. I think something needs to be done about this to (1) rectify the current owners' situation with potentially missing HP, and (2) prevent this type of thing happening in the future by Nissan, and perhaps other manufacturers. I just hope this will not be like the paint chip issue, where a lot of fuss is brought up over here, but not much is done.
Also, getting stock Maximas should not be a problem if this case gets rolling. Think about it, if this stuff hits the news, then all Maxima owners will see it, and a lot of Maxs remain stock, so those people will bring them in for tests or what not.
Also, what about contacting a consumer watchdog, they may be interested in this since there are a lot of people possibly affected. I think one of these watchdogs is the Better Business Bureau, and they may be interested. If anyone has contacts with any of these places (bureaus, magazines), try to contact them and maybe even show them this thread so that they can see the dissatisfaction.
I totally agree about doing something about this problem. It's not like we bought a $10 item, and something is wrong with it. These are $25-30K cars, and that's a LOT of money for most people. Secondly, the principle behind this is important. As someone mentioned, if this is not stopped, then Nissan will continue to overestimate their horsepower and run bogus ad campaigns. I think something needs to be done about this to (1) rectify the current owners' situation with potentially missing HP, and (2) prevent this type of thing happening in the future by Nissan, and perhaps other manufacturers. I just hope this will not be like the paint chip issue, where a lot of fuss is brought up over here, but not much is done.
11-13-2002, 09:49 AM
#76
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,489
Originally posted by PrinzII
Hell yeah! Count me in. But while we are at it, why don't we go after them for the other issues related to our cars (e.g. paint, fluttering hoods, etc.)
Hell yeah! Count me in. But while we are at it, why don't we go after them for the other issues related to our cars (e.g. paint, fluttering hoods, etc.)
11-13-2002, 11:17 AM
#80
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22
Seeya later max...
I would love it if something came of this...since about 2 weeks of ownership I have become disgusted with the quality of this POS car...so much so that Im looking for anyway to get out from underneath it...I want another A4...mine had 90k miles and felt a helluva lot better than my max with 9k miles...I wont buy another one! The ONLY reason I bought this one was the 255 HP....