mkoebra95

I don't care what Nissan or any car company says a car makes at the flywheel. The only way to prove it is to yank an engine and dyno it. You shouldn't put a lot of faith into what they claim either. If you assume that a car makes 255hp, then you dyno 200hp, that's 22% drive train loss or 55 hp. I can only think of one circumstance to let that happen: AWD with AW steering. It is easier to believe that they lied about the hp rating at the flywheel. If the term lie is too strong, then over flatteringly guessed.

Basing drivetrain loss on what a car company says it makes at the flywheel and then what you get on a dyno is not very accurate. Here are but a few examples of what I mean, albeit only one is a Nissan:

RWD cars (all manuals)
94 and 95 Mustang Cobra: rated: 240hp dyno 218+-5 ~~9.2% loss
99 Mustang Cobra: Rated 320, dyno (pre-fix) 258 +-5 ~~ 19.4% loss
01 Cobra (and post fix 99's), rated: 320 dyno 275 +-5 ~~14.1% loss
01 SS Camaro, rated: 330hp, dyno 300 (+-5) ~~9.1% loss
03 Cobra, rated: 390hp dyno 370 (+-10) ~~5.1% loss
03 350Z, rated: 287hp dyno 238 (+-5) ~~17.1% loss

FWD cars (all manuals)
97 Integra GSR rated: 170hp, dyno 142 (+-4) ~~15.3% loss
02 Maxima rated 255hp dyno 200(+-5) ~~21.6%
02 Altima rated 245hp dyno 200(+-5) ~~18.4%
02 Focus rated 130hp dyno 108(+-2) ~~16.9%

The RWD cars have one (maybe too with the Z) dog(s) that clearly aren't in line with the other cars: the proven defective low on power 99 Cobra. Most of the RWD cars have about 12% loss actually.

The majority of the FWD cars I have listed loose about 17-18%, except the Maxima. When one car is out of line with a lot of other similar cars, you have to ask yourself: is it more likely that every other car company underrated their car, or did the company who's car gave **** poor results stiff you? I know which one I choose...

FWIW, you guys kick the $hit out of American companies and the cars' quality, but when Ford screwed the 99 Cobra owners over because Ford bought inferior intakes and mufflers, they corrected the problem. No "Dear Cobra owner: You bought the car, now it's yours, so F--k Off." letters. Hopefully Nissan will follow Ford's lead.

Neeferea

You know what guys. I have a friend working in a newspaper. I am going to visit him. I will try to put an article in it.

PeterUbers

The Acura CL-S 6-spd might be the best comparison for the Max:

It dynoed around 220 hp and I can't remember the torque rating. The auto dynoes at a measly 198-205 hp.

GMAN01SE

I don't think we need to pull an engine and dyno it, or worry about what percentage drivetrain loss is. The bigger issue is how the maxima COMPARES to an altima. And it's pretty obvious that they both put down the same HP.

Also, does anyone remember what Mazda gave miata owners (if anything) when the new miata was overrated?

02MaximizedVQ

Finally, somebody gets it.

adman

When did NNA claim you would only have 18% loss???
I must have missed that on the sticker...


ADMAN

DrVolkl

They didn't..but they did claim that the Altima makes 240 and the Maxima makes 255, which ain't happening. Get it yet?

PoweredbyNissan

all right nissan, just modify my engine to the specs of the 350Z engine and I will forget this ever happened. We can still do business......hehe

fornimage

Thanks for fighting the fight and keep us updated on the progress.
Really do appreciate the efforts and hopefully we get our moneys
worth. Thanks!

PoweredbyNissan

Nissan:
If you are out there listening, obviously people are not happy with your hp rating. If I were your marketing manager I would try to maintain and produce a good company image by rectify this problem and give 2k2-3 maxima owners additional incentives to want to do busines with Nissan again. I mean we are in the 21th century now, it's all about relationship marketing. The cheapest thing for u to do is to ignore the problem and tell us everything is normal, but that will hurt your company image, and your brand equity in the long run. So I guess it comes down to if you want short term profit or long term success. I view this as a good public relation chance for you. I am sure you can turn this around and come out as the kind of company that cares about its customers' needs.

on a side note, anyone heard about Mercedes's car in Norway or somewhere that wont pass the "bull's test" or something? Mercedes changed the whole production line just because the car wont manuver fast enough. Sure it cost them a lot of money, but it strengthed their company image. We associated the name with not only the kind of car they make, but also the service they can provide. And that is how they get their strong name. It is one vicious cycle.......
I want my HPs now!

pjonkheer

Here's an idea...

Why don't we all write emails to newspapers in major metro areas?? Email addresses are available on the newspaper web sites of the writers. I just finished emailing a writer for the Chicago Tribune. This could magnify our "complaint" by thousands. What are the odds of the writer contacting me with an interest to write an article?? Probably not very good, but if we all do it, somebody out there will be interested in doing this.

What do you guys think?? What do we have to lose?

jjs

A whole lot of respect and possibly a ton of $$$ for a libel suit.

There would have to be quite solid proof of poor dyno results before making those kind of public statements.

pjonkheer

Respect?? I'm a bit confused on that one. If we truly believe in what's going on here, then losing respect is a non-issue.

Libel suit? For what? I am completely uninformed on this one...

jjs

RESPECT: As in losing the credibility of a unified front with a whole bunch of people sending out complaints/comments/etc. that may not be worded or substantiated in such a way as to avoid possibly contradicting other complaints. Nothing worse than a bunck of people *****ing about something and then finding out they can't even get their own stories straight.

LIBEL: If these communications take the form of a bunch of posts already seen here where Nissan is already considered guilty and in the noose, it would not be prudent to have people making public statements based on an emotional bandwagon that is going on around here and NOT supported by facts (as of yet accumulated). Scenario:

.ORG member: "....Nissan lied!!!...ripped off the consumer...(etc.)"
Nissan: "...well Mr. X, our documented test show that the advertised figures are accurate...where is your proof...have you dynoed your car?"
.ORG member: "uh, no, I don't have a dyno, I can tell since I lose in races. Other people have said they have missing HP too..."

I think you can see where this might go.

Hey if you guys want to fight this out, feel free. I still maintain there is not enough factual evidence (that takes into account transmission and other parasitic losses) to go broadcasting this all over the place.

CHAZMAX

Make no mistake about it... This will not easily be "written" away.

The bottom line is that Nissan "MAY" be in some SERIOUS trouble. I honestly think that we are in the earlier stages of a "world of hurt for Nissan." I almost feel sympathy for them, cuz I love Nissan products.

Nissan's best option will probably be to QUICKLY and QUIETLY satisfy those directly affected, and focus more on protecting the IMAGE that Nissan has worked so hard to nurture over the years.

pjonkheer

Ok...I totally agree. Thank you for clearing this up, and I appreciate it.

How about this...

My co-worker has a family member who works for the Associated Press. He said we could have someone write a professional "press-release" and he would submit it to his contact at the AP. If this was written well and accurate we would be able to avoid all of what you're talking about and we would be achieving nationwide exposure.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

mkoebra95 probably has the best idea. But man, pulling a motor and having it tested is a pain. Maybe from a wrecked 2k2? But you see his point, it takes the drivetrain loses out of the equation and removes that arguing point from Nissan.

And he has also said(I think anyway), that drivetrain losses cannot be above xxxx% as per a CAFE regulation? So the best thing you could do if you want to dyno w/ the engine in the car, is to use to assume the highest drivetrain loss allowed by CAFE or whoever. Worst case situation as it were.

I think comparing the Altima and Maxima is difficult for the manuals UNLESS you have the gear ratios and final drive to make sure these differences(if any) aren't affecting the numbers. Maybe doing the autos is better as both use the same automatic tranny???? oranges to oranges so to speak. Anyway, some consolidated thoughts. Probably repeated.

mkoebra95

Just so you know, the 99 Cobra thing didn't pick up real steam until Muscle Mustang and Fast Fords, 5.0 and Super Fords, and the mainstream automobile press picked up on it and started running stories.

The internet (Blue Oval News and the SVT Cobra Owners Association email list) were full of stories like you guys are saying of collective sighs of pure let down when the banner car made unbelievably low power at a dyno day. Ford's first response to the owners was "you dynoed it wrong, do it again in 3rd gear", and then when those came in even lower, "well the angle the 1/2 shafts make in comparison to the dyno drum's plane of rotation yada yada yada (translation: the dyno guys don't know what they are doing they are strapping the cars on too tight for the new IRS)", to before the story started to break in Car and Driver et al : "The drive train eats up too much power"

All their explanations were complete bull$hit. The culprit was inferior production parts compared to the preproduction designed parts. The pre-production cars made what they were supposed to, but the restrictive low quality out sourced production parts did not.

The bottom line is, you've got the grass roots behind you: maxima.org. Now if you can get a non-NNA backed Nissan magazine, or better yet, Car and Driver or Motor Trend to carry the story, NNA will be forced to listen and take action, or live with egg on their collective face.

Padsy

iTrader: (1)

DrVolkl

Anyone know anyone at R&T or an import mag? Do I have to contact someone??

pjonkheer

I don't, but we could always email them. If somebody writes a solid email etc...they might take a look and consider doing an article.

pezking4

It seems that the maxima is over-rated slightly based on such a huge percentage loss through the drive train. But, do you think maybe Nissan under-rated the Altima some on purpose? Just like how Chevy underratted the Camaro so the Vette would seem to have so much more power. If you dyno both of the them at the wheels, the two cars are actually pretty close together.

Under-rate the Altima and over-rate the Maxima slightly and pretty soon you have a 15 hp difference.

What was the Altima getting at the wheels? It may have been posted already, but this thread is turning into a novel.

Triple8Sol

iTrader: (29)

I'm happy to hear this news...at least we're moving in the right direction.

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

the reason why most people aren't going with that theory is because the drive train loss numbers would have to be ridiculously high, the cars dyno at the same hp levels but if the engine actually was 255hp they loss levels woudl be very very high, too high.

2k_gxeauto

GUYS !! Just check this link out !! The 350z puts much more than 230 Hp at the wheels. It is Sports Car magazine....it makes around 249 HP.
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/fe...san/index.html

And also the gas you use might affect the ratings. Test with 100+ octance and you will get better results.

For e.g, According to Honda, 2003 Accord is expected to make 10+ HP and 10+ torque with 93 fuel ?! (read Honda Accord first drive column on edmunds.com)

Personally, I think both Altima and Maxima should be rated around 245 HP. The Altima 2003 is rated at 245 hp, just like the Murano

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

not to sound like i want to discount any dyno numbers that are taken but every dyno i've seen from SCC with a nissan lately has been at least 10hp higher then everyone else is getting all the time on other dynoes. i wouldn't put it past nissan to send them a slightly tuned one to give hp numbers that will correlate to what the numbers are the wheels should be for the flywheel numbers.

lildanny61

wait wait wait....

if i remember correctly, some time last year, one of the import rags did a 5spd Altima vs 6spd Maxima test.

i THINK it was either Sport Compact Car or Super Street

anyone here remember that?

i believe that the magazine also had dyno runs for both cars....

Mike S.

Well maybe they should give you guys more hp, but take away some your torque. You only paid for 246ft-lbs, but I think there is more there.

Interesting side not: The pathfinder is rated at 240hp/268ft-lbs of torque. Not sure where on the rpm scale that hp is, but sounds like that is what the Altima/maxima really make. Dyno's are what....low 200 hp and 220's for torque?

Max_Vader_2K

What about us 00' and 01' with 222hp or does it not count for us, it was a big sell for me I know that much !!!

Max_Vader_2K

I feel your pain nissan has got to help us out as well!!!

jjs

I am trying to find this 'regulation' but have had no luck. I am not certain how they would police/regulate this anyway. I mean, if the MPG and emissions are within parameters, why would they care how you get there?

Have you come across this reg yet?

Larry

Maybe the MPG and emissions are within parameters because they cheated us on hp to compensate.

jjs

Again, that has yet to be determined.

Perhaps they just have sucky transmissions and accessories that contribute to the loss.

95emeraldgxe

possible, but i highly doubt it

mkoebra95

There was a wrecked picture of an 03 Z on corral.net that would make a nice engine dyno donor for that car, but I can't find the link. I looks like it hurt, and I hope no body got banged up badly.

I did not say that there is a CAFE regulation on drivetrain loss. I'm saying that if you take two identical power plants, and one has 5% more drivetrain loss than another, that means that the less efficient one will waste a lot more gas to get the same thing done. I have read that companies use good performing vehicles to make up for their bad ones (ie Ford uses Focuses to make up for F150's and Musatang Cobras, Dodge uses Neons to make up for Vipers etc). I would think Nissan would make their bread and butter car like the Altima or Maxima as efficient as possible.

There may be a regulation, but I have never heard of it.

AltyPaul

They use the Sentra and 4 cylinder Altima to balance the CAFE requirements. There are a lot more 4 cylinder Altimas on the road than the 6 cylinder variety.

olincoles

I purchased the 2003 Nissan Maxima ONLY because of it's 255HP V-6. For the most part I am not impressed with the car, but now that my initial thoughts on the power are confirmed, I think those people like me are intitled to a fair compensation. I know Nissan is aware of the industry wide class action law suits. This already has every bit the reason to go before the courts.

Virus

iTrader: (1)

Has anyone spoken to a lawyer yet on the possibilities on a lawsuit and the best way to go about it?

zerofighter

hmmmmm.....do you think i can get the 2k3 for a lower price by mentioning this...?

BioMaxDDS

iTrader: (1)

Steve (dmb) talked to a lawyer already