STILLEN

We have posted our dyno results. Now we are offering to prove those numbers on a board member's car. We hope to see you the day of the dyno run.

Make it a nice day.

STILLEN

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

How does this compare to your advertising the greatest DELTA between two dynos?

These are manufacturers putting their "best foot forward" with a SINGLE dyno point on a SINGLE graph of PEAK power, ie HIGHEST HP/TQ. No basis whatsoever to your argument that Stillens' advertising "upto 19hp" gained *DELTA* is equivalent.

I understand trying to make your product look its best and everybody fudges or uses a turd..then ringer for before/after dynos, but without a dyno plot to show the "true picture" of where/how that claim of 19hp gain came about, *I* and most, will feel it is misleading. However, it's your business...run it how you want too, but be warned from now on EVERYONE will suspect any numbers you guys publish as some "blip" in the powerband that makes your product shine the brightest and without a dyno, it's basically meaningless.

I applaud you for the information/dynos/consideration you've provided, it's greatly appreciated and I hope you guys will continue to keep PR more of a priority.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

So, what good does that do now *AFTER* people already bought your product?

They bought your product EXPECTING 19whp...not 13whp and withOUT those dynos would NEVER have known you were publishing the biggest BLIP between two dynos.

Blu

iTrader: (63)

How long have the headers been available for sale? And we are just now seeing some type of graph and only on maxima.org?

Are they available for people to view on the Stillen site? Nope

The thing is not even 1/2 the buyers from Stillen know the org exists and only after you become a sponser of this site you try and prove something which totally conflicts with what is written on the site. Digging deeper as we go along.

Also were are the graphes that you got the 19whp at 5800rpm and 14wtq at 5700 certainly you guys didn't lose them? Post them up I'd like to see

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

guys... why don't we wait until after the dynoing of a member's car....

it's pointless to argue on past dyno graphs don't you think?

let's see what Current dyno numbers are...

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Actually, any future dynos wouldn't prove ANYTHING [edit]*more* then what Alex has already posted[/edit] in my opinion. You guys are wasting your time.

We already know where/how Stillen got their advertised *BLIP* "upto 19 additional hp" gain and the fact that HotShot headers are $400 cheaper and what 5-10whp stronger along with a superior design, so why bother?

Blu

iTrader: (63)

How do you figure its pointless? What they advertise is false and they are pulling everything out of the woodwork to try and cover it up but its only making it look that much worse. I don't understand first you post about being anti Stillen and you will never deal with them again and now your trying to support them? I could care less what they pull on the dyno everyone already has real world results which showed the headers were crap. Just ask WILLSE, Juice and a few others. What did Stillen do about it then? Nothing but blame it on the other mods on the peoples cars. Check out Juices stickey comparing the Hotshot to Stillen headers that right there is enough proof to show why everyone was upset with the Stillen headers that bought them. Let Stillen get there little 100rpm blip of 19whp and continue to advertise it like they do, at least most everyone on this board knows to stay away from the Stillen headers.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

Damn, where have I been?

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

You need to calm the *** down Blu...I don't have a clue where you got I'm on Stillens' side here. I'm not, but I'm actually staying as neutral as I can.

Anyways, what I meant is we ALREADY KNOW THE TRUTH...you've hit it on the head, I tried to regurgitate it, and I'm sure the members see it. We know HOW and WHY Stillen advertises those numbers and we know they are disappointing. My point was that Alex's OWN dynos show it, so what is any additional dynos going to show? Kind of like beating a dead horse AGAIN, if you know what I mean.

Anyways, I have a feeling if this isn't a 3rd party dyno and Stillens' reps have a Consult-II to tinker with, they can make that dyno sing WHATEVER tune they want, if you know what I mean. I just doubt ANY aftermarket companies claims ESPECIALLY when they're biased and performing the dynos themselves. Unless there was a third party dyno like ATP or XS Engineering, I don't honestly care what they get on a before/after dyno.

So.....

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Haha...just realized you weren't replying to me Blu.

Oh well.

Blu

iTrader: (63)

I was about to reply luckily I scrolled down a little more. Calm down mang

You're thinking the same things I am but the words just don't come out right for me

Blu

iTrader: (63)

off topic

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

First, I don't believe that they're trying to "cover it up". Think about it - Stillen didn't HAVE to come and start debating people on this thread and start posting up their dynos. Nor do they HAVE to do more dynos with an org memeber's car.

In fact, by popping their collective head up, they've pretty much put it in the line of fire. They probably would have been better off NOT posting anything and NOT discussing anything - then, the thread would have eventually died out. Instead, they are trying to "clear the air" and show "proof of life" to their claims. As you can see, by doing this, they've revived the controversy and brought this thread back to life.

I am not so much "supporting" them as trying to give them a fair shake. I think that Alex (and Stillen, the company) is showing some character in not only discussing (debating?) this issue, but in also agreeing to my suggestion of having an org member's car be tested.

You are correct, I WAS anti-stillen. a) Because of Stillen's lack of response to this thread when it initially was posted and b) because of my own personal experiences that I had with them.

I wouldn't say that I am PRO-stillen at this point, but I am WILLING to listen/see what they have to say/show.

Also, I've corresponded privately with Alex regarding the experiences that I've had in the past, with their products and their service.

Although there wasn't anything that Alex could do to reimburse me for the problems/headaches I experienced in the past, it again shows character that he not only admitted to these faults but also appologized for them. Both of which are things he (and the company) didn't have to do.

In addition to this, I'm impressed that my talking to Adam and Alex at the 350Z meet had an effect. I talked to them for about an hour about the whole header issue and told them that Stillen was looking pretty shady in ignoring the org and it's unhappy members. Coming back onto the org, and trying to clear things up, shows that Stillen isn't ignoring the concerns that org members have and also shows their willingness to make things right.

Remember, Alex works for a company... I'm sure he has his day-to-day responsibilities that he's responsible for that have nothing to do with going onto the internet and debating org memebers.

Also keep in mind what you said, "...not even 1/2 the buyers from Stillen know the org exists...", which is 100% true. Org members are a drop in the ocean as far as generating business for Stillen... So again, coming back onto the org and debating this issue, to me, shows that Stillen isn't ignoring the concerns that org members have and are willing to "clear the air". They're certainly not doing it because org members are hurting their business...

How can having an org member's car being dynoed not be "real world results"?

IIRC, juices comparison showed that Stillen's headers DID add performance... Hotshot's just made more.

It looks like people have forgotten what the original issue was... IIRC, the original issue was that people were saying the Stillen's headers LOST power... now it looks like the issue has turned into "your headers don't make as much as claimed"

Last thing... a "100 rpm blip of 19whp" is still 19whp. I don't remember ever seeing any manufacturer say "19whp for 2000 RPMs between 2500 and 4500..." I know I don't go around saying, "I dynoed 300.6 hp with the aux fuel pump turned off, and running lean, at 6400 RPM" I say "I dynoed at 300.6 hp".

Again, I just think that we should give Stillen a FAIR chance. If, after testing an org memeber's car, the numbers still are bad, then it's pretty cut and dry.

Blu

iTrader: (63)

no every manufacture I have seen has provided dyno sheets with the numbers they posted as gains. They also 99% of the time go by peak power gains not max power difference at one rpm. The one other thing that struck me as odd is the fact which I have said before they said 19whp at 5800rpm and 14tq at 5700rpm when now they all of a sudden get these numbers at 6050rpms? Doesn't add up to me but whatever they decide to do good for them. The truth is out now which is great IMO.

BTW you need to track(1/4) your car

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

Yeah... I don't know if I'm gonna time well though, since I'm peg leggin' it.... but I bet I'll make a helluva smoke screen!!

WILLSE

*****STILLEN*****
all i want to know is where is the power? i have the headers i dynoed you CANT tell me im wrong i have plenty of proof. i will not purchase another product from stillen until someone gives me my 19+whp that i purchased. stillen can say what they want but as far as im conserned stillen stole from me. so alex what can u possibly do to make my hatred for stillen settle and have me on your buying list again? perhaps give me my money back or the power i bought? i have brought u guys tons of business and made u guys plenty of money only to get stabbed in the back after 3 years of loyalty. some business ethics.

alex- how many references have i had and what were my total purchases that i have made from stillen. if u forgot my name is was WILL ALBRIGHT cant miss it. Dean used to hear from me nearly everyday. havent spoken with him since u guys sold me these headers except to complain.

btw hnda etr i 2 am a fellow peg legger. i ran a 14.3 @ 97. GO GET EM!!! before the headers of coarse.

will

OH alex i have been meaning to call u guys. but i am working my **** off and cant seem to find a free minute. email me if thats not asking too much and i will respond asap. i would love to be supporting stillen again but cant after what you guys did to me.

92 SE-R 02 SE

bump

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

To me it seems that Stillen could really care less about Will and the crap headers they sold him (and I've listened in on a FEW of Will's conversations with Stillen and their so called "technical support")...

I just hope that they do not treat everyone who purchased these headers like this. Hell, Will has spent what...$2500-$3000 at Stillen in the past couple of years? If they screw him, then odds are the rest of you who purchased the headers are in no better shape after only spending $900~ish...

MaximaMan77

Plus install for those who can't do it themselves. Then to only have to do it again to switch back to stock or Hot Shots.

You have to admit Wills' car has had some issues though...

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

It did, but they have been rectified. Still isn't right (headers)...

2kGLE

Stillen obviously doesn’t give a flying *** about anything but their own finances. They made headers without proper R&D and prototyping (seemingly none at all), and now they are attempting to cover their as$es. There is no need to dyno a member’s car. The info at hand is proof enough that stillen mislead customers. Why isn’t this info on stillen’s website? Well, nobody would buy their headers if it was. The only thing we can do is boycott stillen, spread the word, and take them to court.

***What I’m wondering is, didn’t stillen originally advertise the headers as a 25hp gain in their catalogue? I could swear I remember seeing it advertised as 25hp. Does anyone have that old catalogue? Stillen (or anyone), can you please confirm or deny this for me?***

92 SE-R 02 SE

Its just a shame the $tillen came out with their headers 1st and a few guys wanted to get them ASAP. If HS came out with theirs 1st, chances are $tillen headers wouldnt be on any 5th gen on this board...

2kGLE

I've seen STILLEN online a couple of times in the past day. I guess Alex doesnt have anything to say to Will or any of us.

studman

My favorite part of it all was when Stillen told me that my dyno comparisons don't count because I had a Greddy E-Manage installed. It's kinda funny because the car was tuned using the E-Manage before I installed the headers, then I installed the headers and re-tuned it again back to the same A/F ratios. Yet not even I made the claimed HP/TQ gains.

I guess I'm the one who really got screwed, as I actually tried to help correct one of the design problems with the headers.

Oh, and let us not forget that I still have a SES light with error codes P1147 and P1167 (B1S2 and B2S2 O2 Sensors) even after I replaced them. Guess the emulator box isn't working after all.

While I'm willing to jump on the bandwagon and get my $840 back from Stillen, which I'd love to do, it'd still make no difference in future purchases from me anyway. I've burned up $300 on the install, another $100 for tuning, and $220 on new O2 sensors to try to correct a problem that I didn't have before. So if Stillen wants to give me my $840 back and take their headers, that's fine, but I'm still out the other $620, which I'm almost SURE they won't give me back either.

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

I want my money back to from stillen sh@t those headers are off my ride and in my garage.

2kGLE

I think its safe to say that stillen isnt going to continue this conversation in a public forum. It's just a matter of time before someone takes them to court and gets their money back. I think they seriously shot themselves in the foot by posting those pathetic dynos. This thread is really all that is needed to take them to court. Its too bad the main people who have dyno'd are outside of cali. O well, just a matter of time I guess. Its only $20 to take them to small claims in california. You just have to file the papers at the Orange County court house and appear on the date. I've done this before with a shop that attempted to screw my over. It was really easy and I got all my money back.

WILLSE

ok guys this whole stillen things has gotten out of hand. i had a long conversation with alex and it went rather well. i didnt ask for my money back bc thats nonsense. stillen has backed the maxima community when other manufacters wouldnt and here everyone is talking major trash to them and buring one of the only bridges that we have to gettin performance parts. it wouldnt suprise me one bit if steve millen said drop the maxima line completely. this thread has gone way past the point of making things right and the way that everyone has been flamming them has pushed them into a corner. besides the whole header situation (which i was one of the ones who purchased them) they have a good product line to support the maxima community. if we keep up this trash talking they wont have respect for us. when a car is modded like mine is the power gains will be nowhere near the ones on a stock max. i dont doubt that the headers make power on a stock car. if you put a supper charger on a 350z it makes power. when you add the headers wityh the SC it will actually lose power. there is no way for stillen to individualize each and every situation and custom make a set of headers according to the mods that each person has. everyone on here needs to chill out and let by-gons be by-gons. **most of the ones talking crap dont even have the headers.** when i added a b-pipe to my car i lost horse power. the question to everyone is "do you want stillen to drop the maxima line or continue to put forth the efforts to make the maxima look and perform better?" im sure they will be reading this so you guys might want to think about what u say with a little bit of reason.

will

03BlkSETE

iTrader: (3)

Wow WILLSE, that Alex must be very a very persuasive guy, one on one. I remember some of your earlier posts about Stillen. They were not as positive Unfortunately that doesn't change the facts that are important to me.

- Hotshot headers have made power on every type of Maxima and Altima they've been on with all types of varying modifications.

- Alex, as a representative of Stillen, always had a somewhat condescending attitude (in print at least), in dealing with this issue and has never acknowledged that their is even a problem or offered any type of remedy or apology.

As far guys talking about Stillen without owning the headers, their is a variety of reasons for that. The most important is that we are helping to support the unfortunate org members who have lost money, time, and perhaps enthusiasm for modding their car after buying a poorly designed product by what should be a trusted brand name. I'd much rather lose Stillen than lose the contribution of org members like you, juice, studman and the others who bought these headers.

Yes Stillen does make some very good body kits and I believe they have the potential to make other great products but I have lost trust in them.

Remember Stillen, todays Maxima and Altima owners are tomorrows 350z and G35 owners. Perhaps Stillen should take a long look at why so many people refer to them as $tealin.

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

Wow someone on here needs to stop kissing a$$ Stillen fu@@ed up and should live up to their word. It seems to me your a dam idiot for not asking for your money back. In fact its kinda strange to me its almost as if your a d@m snitch or something for them, and got a deal on the side for saying that. I find it highly arrogant that you could stick up for a company that knows they messed up and still kiss their a$$.

I dont care if you get your moeny back, but i am i dont spend my hard earned $1000 for no d@m reason. In fact your post pi$$es me off more than Stillen inself.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

My .02...Stillen has already dropped the Maxima and big whoopty fuking deal. Seen VQ30 headers? Seen 5th gen VQ35 SC or y-pipe? Seen VQ35 STS?

If it isn't cosmetic, older gen. compatible, or a direct crossover from the VQ35 Altima/350z/G35, they could give a R&D **** less.

As to this comment:
You've been Stillen brainwashed. Studmans' tuning showed it's not simply leaning out the AFR like the SC'd 350z example with a free'd up exhaust(ie removed cats). If Alex is telling you that these were "optimized" to ONLY make power on a stock car and that an intake/catback will cause the headers to LOSE power, he's FOS or they've GOT TO BE THE STUPIDEST AFTERMARKET COMPANY ON EARTH~! It's a simple concept really, if you increase the air velocity into/out of the engine and add proper fuel, you gain power. HotShots' headers support this fact.

If Stillens' defense is that their headturds will ONLY make claimed power on a STOCK car, I'd have to say fine and from now on any time somebody asks about one of their products, my answer will be sure to point that out.

2kGLE

Wow, Will, that was a disturbing post. I don’t know what to say, other than I agree with what 03Blk, glen, and Ice said. What on earth did he say (or do) to convince you that asking for your money back for an obviously faulty product is nonsense? You droped way over a grand on this for nothing and getting compensation is nonsense?

How did you go from this stance:..
..to this, in one phone call?
I mean didnt you just say you hated stillen and would never ever support them unless they gave you the money or the power back. So what did they give you the money or the power? Or was the false info he gave you enough? As Ice pointed out, what you said about aftermarket products and stock vs. modded cars is just insane. So, since that has been clarified, do you still think its nonsense to ask for your money back from a company that as you said, "stole" from you?

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

I bet he got something on the side we dont know about, or why would he have the nerve to say that omg thats so arrogant im still heated lol.


Maybe Stillen made the Headers custom for him into a roof rack or something.I bet that gave 30 hp at the wheels for sure especailly with all the air on the roof. hahahhahahahhahahah

WILLSE

hey glen. kiss my a$$! think what u want im tryin to get a resolution to all this BS.

will

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

Will whats the outcome gonna be, cause im stuck here out $1000 dollars with pipes in my garage. Im not worried about Stillens future parts im worried about the present parts they have now. These headers did not work and they should remake the dam things or soemthing to make up for their screw up. My point being Stillen being such a huge company why can't they fix the problem instead of avoiding it. I work at a Fu@@ing donut shop and i go to college full time. That $1000 for those headers took me a long time to save up.

The part that pisted me off is you trying to say its ok for them to fu@K us up the a$$ out of $1000 as long as they still make maxima parts, and thats just arrogant.

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=glen1685]Will whats the outcome gonna be, cause im stuck here out $1000 dollars with pipes in my garage. Im not worried about Stillens future parts im worried about the present parts they have now. These headers did not work and they should remake the dam things or soemthing to make up for their screw up. My point being Stillen being such a huge company why can't they fix the problem instead of avoiding it. I work at a Fu@@ing donut shop and i go to college full time. That $1000 for those headers took me a long time to save up.

The part that pisted me off is you trying to say its ok for them to fu@K us up the a$$ out of $1000 as long as they still make maxima parts, and thats just arrogant.

IM NOT THE ONLY ONE EITHER THINKING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MaximaMan77

Will,

You get so wishy washy on this topic. 1st you’re ****ed then you talk to them and calm down and start defending them. Then some time goes by and the process starts all over again. Alex or who ever you talk to is very good at telling you what you want to hear. Either that or you should put everything else back to stock so you can get the gain you paid for.

There is no doubt Stillen makes/buys good products for many different model cars. They do charge a premium for them but I'm sure they have more overhead than a lot of smaller resellers for aftermarket parts. What's in question here is 1 item in their product line that does not perform as advertised and what they are going to do to make it right for the people that purchased it based on said advertising and their reputation. There are 2 other competing products that out perform theirs hands down and in some cases have shown to out perform those company’s claims.

If they continue to handle this as poorly as they are and try to sweep this under the rug they'll sway many people that read this board from buying their products. If they decide to stop making new items and or discontinue products for this car based on this it would be a stupid business decision on their part. It all equals lost revenue, much more revenue that it would cost to make this situation right. Besides there are many other companies out there now that weren't around several years ago that would be more than happy to fill the void.

Also don't forget that they are setting precedence here. Even if they fix this problem and do right be you folk’s people are going to think twice about purchasing from them if this is what it takes to fix a problem. And there will be another problems some day, no one is perfect, it's how you handle them that makes a name for a company. I manage a branch of a company that sells products to over 500 companies all over the southeast and have branches in 3 other cities across the country. I view mistakes as opportunities. As long as they don't happen to frequently and to the same customers they can cement our relationship because of how we handle them.

Now get the **** out of your ear from the last conversation and continue to take the issue to them. Get an RMA or a credit towards future purchases. If I were you I would be happy with either of those and nothing less.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Yes, he's watching and "Reporting Post to Moderator", but nobody's home.

2kGLE

ROFL

Will,
If you have no desire to get the thousand+ dollars of money or power back then how are you trying to resolve this? The premise on which you seem to base the need for a "let by-gones be by-gones" resolution where nobody gets any compensation whatsoever is flawed. What stillen told you was false. As Ice said, "It's a simple concept really, if you increase the air velocity into/out of the engine and add proper fuel, you gain power. HotShots' headers support this fact. If Stillens' defense is that their headturds will ONLY make claimed power on a STOCK car, I'd have to say fine and from now on any time somebody asks about one of their products, my answer will be sure to point that out." So to answer my question from before, what did they give you money, power, or was the false claim good enough for you to not care about your thousand dollars?

STILLEN,
Why dont you stop reporting my posts and start responding to them? Face it, Stillen is going to get taken to court over this sooner or later. Its going to be ugly when you get a judgement against you. Make this right while you still can. BTW, would you please confirm or deny weather the original ad in your catalogue said 25hp?

WILLSE

all i was tryin to say is that the only way that they will even work with us is if we stop bashing them. its been 6-7 months since all this has happend bashing them has gotten us nowhere maybe its time to take a different approach and see what we can work out. the only thing that i want is a resolution and hopefully we can get one sooner or later.

will

92 SE-R 02 SE

F $tillen...they are CRAP.. for nissan they suck..made the biggest crap header for the max AND the SR20..made NOTHING worth while for the nissan community..and hey $tillen...my TURBO SE-R has ZERO $tillen parts....hehe thats why it runs... $tillen and Nissan is as good as APC and nissan. $tillen SUCKS *****..anyone who supports them is SAD SAD S.A.D..