2kSeMax

Wow, that was quick
Thanks

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

check out my cardomain site for pics of the Cattman headers and the install

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

has there been any update or new info about the $teallin headers/dyno?

WILLSE

not from me sry guys. im waiting to get my letter for the recall since i already confirmed that my VIN is within the recall range. hope that will fix the problem. ill dyno after and see. if not they pretty much gave us the big FAQ U. ill call em up and b!tch at them more since they probably think i forgot or something. ill keep you guys posted when more info is available. im still waiting on the HS headers to see proven numbers over stillen and then we can strengthen the case.

will

Max_Gator

Interesting article on the audi/vws ECU, how it controls fuel trim and most importantly what to look at with a reader to evaluate what the ECU is doing.

http://forums.audiworld.com/vag/msgs/456.phtml

Do we have comparable info for the max?

Blu

iTrader: (63)

Once Juice gets his ECU retuned for the HS headers that will be the most proof available. He dynoed 231whp STD with the ECU tuned for the Stillen headers. I got a call from him yesterday saying he made I believe 236whp STD running 11.2 a/f which is a point lower than what he ran on the stillen headers. I also believe he gained 10wtq from the HS headers. So as of now untuned hes making 5whp and 10wtq over the Stillen headers running pig rich.

STILLEN

Hello Boardmembers:

These dyno sheets come well overdue:

KLOOGY

iTrader: (12)

What car and what mods......those sheets alone mean nothing.....

Blu

iTrader: (63)

so STD you gained 14whp and 6tq which is no where near what was claimed. Also what was considered baseline b/c if its stock thats got to be a record high hp and tq or at least the highest I've seen.

Stillen check this out:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=297746

03BlkSETE

iTrader: (3)

I'm glad Stillen is seeming to take renewed interest in the Maxima community.
Hopefully you took the time to read this thread in it's entirety. You should be aware a negative brand image was generated with these headers and Stillen's apparent lack concern for those that were unhappy with the performance results of their fairly expensive purchase. I'm not writing this to insult or attack Stillen but to make you guys aware of what alot of us are feeling. Hopefully some lost trust can be regained in the future.

STILLEN

No, you read the dyno at the peak difference. So, for this it is 19 and change. To answer the question above blubyu2k2: The car is stock with headers and racepipe combo.

Hope that helps.

AC

STILLEN

The dyno description is a bit confusing. I'm not certain what we are comparing on your chart. It talks about new computer program and the written description has a list (impressive by the way) of mods on the car. The dynos I've just posted are plain jane stock vs. stillen header/racepipe combo.

Cheers!

AC

Blu

iTrader: (63)

those dynos in the link I posted are the Stillen headers vs the hotshot headers on the same car, same mods, same dyno, same conditions.

Red line = Stillen headers
Blue line = Hotshot headers

92 SE-R 02 SE

IMO it doesnt matter what $tillen posts. EVERY Max owner with $tillen header made little or no power where as the EVERY HS dyno i have seen made power. I just feel bad for the people who wasted their money on $tillen headers...

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

I talked extensively with Adam (Hume, of Stillen) about this whole issue at the Performance Nissan meet (350Z club meet really).

I told him what people here were saying and that Stillen's reluctance to post the dyno charts gave a bad impression.

He said that he would dig up the dyno charts and post them and it looks like he's followed through.

03BlkSETE

iTrader: (3)

That's good they followed through but they are going to have to do alot more than that to fix the negative image they created for themselves. I do hope they are again active in the maxima community but they need to do it right or not at all. STILLEN you lost alot of sales to Hotshot and created some very bad feeling towards your company with your headers. What do intend to do to gain our trust back? Mods, this will be my last Stillen post unless directly replied to, in case this is causing any probs with one of our sponsers.

STILLEN

03BlkSETE,

You said it perfectly! I hope we can earn some trust back. In cases where we are comparing opinions and not facts, I hope that we can at-the-very-least agree to disagree and not hold permanent grudges or unnecessarily affect others.

Regards,

AC

Gandalf

Fact: No car other than yours has shown gains on a dyno. In light of that fact please explain why people should not feel that you stole from them.

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

Incorrect.

Please re-read this post: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=297746

Where Juice states this:

"As you can see by the graph the peak gain is 5HP and 10TQ but there are some areas where I gained 10hp. You can also see how the overall area under the curve is much greater with the Hotshots. This proves that even though Stillens Headers work that Hothsots work BETTER....Enjoy"

Gandalf

My apologies, one person. I stand corrected.

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

LOL

Just trying to be fair...

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

Everyone needs to settle down a bit here. Although you're talking to a person representing Stillen please remember that he/she is just that, a person. In otherwords, don't kill the messenger. And please give credit where credit is due. Afterall, he is here to attempt to clear things up, which we all know is a daunting task, so even if you don't like the company or it's products you folks can at least show our guest a little respect. Then perhaps the matter will get resolved.

STILLEN

Hi Gandalf, (white or grey)?

You are more than welcome to contact me directly at forum@stillen.com to discuss your particular situation. I'll handle your case personally. You must have had a personal experience with one of our parts in order to feel so strongly. At least I hope so. I wouldn't understand why you would be so upset if you hadn't. Right? So, let's fix the situation, track down what you are dissappointed with and get to work resolving it. Once it's resolved, maybe you'll post your pro-STILLEN thoughts -. Is that possible, Gandalf?

We don't have any interest fudging the dyno numbers or the gains. In fact, sometimes it seems to be a double edged sword, a lose-lose scenario. There are different variables that affect dynos. Everyone is aware of this. The same car with the same components can vary from hour to hour, from run to run. Show me a dynograph that is a mirror image of itself on every run. The dyno is a good point of reference and you use the combination of multiple dyno runs to create an average gain. The sole purpose of the dyno is to prove the gains we state. Typically we give a range of plus or minus a few HP or Lb/FT - because there are variables. But we post them and people will scream that the numbers are false. So, it's pretty obvious that we can't convince 100% of people that the sky is blue (or green in reality) if they are absolutely convinced it is fuscia. But we haven't been in business for over 18 years by fudging dyno numbers. We didn't earn the right to produce the 25th Anniversary 300ZX by lying. We didn't become the producer of the limited edition Maxima SMX or win the chance to produce PPG pace cars for Nissan because our parts lose horsepower. We haven't been on the cover of over 20 magazines world wide by selling snake-oil. So, let's work on your issues. Tell me what happened that you feel STILLEN product directly caused. Driver errors and tickets don't count by the way! If you have a valid point that your STILLEN components by themselves caused you to lose power as this thread addresses, at least give me a shot to work it out with you individually.

I hope you'll contact me so that we can work out any STILLEN product issues that you have had or are having.

Regards,

Alex Cates
STILLEN

Stereodude

You could use a Dynapak Dyno instead of a conventional drum based dyno. http://www.dynapack.com They claim a .3% repeatability between back to back runs.

2kGLE

STILLEN,
Thanks for posting graphs, but I have a few questions and comments.
1) What are the SAE numbers?
2) Was the car manual or auto? Either way I think you set a record for highest stock numbers.
3) Are you absolutely positive this is a stock to stock/headers comparison?
4) What about the other three dynos for the other three headers prototypes? If you really want to regain our confidence please post those as well so we can see that these headers were actually developed and not just slapped together.

As far as commentary on the graphs goes, they look pretty weak. 14whp/6wtq STD peak is just sad for headers. Yes, at one point in the power band there is a difference of 20hp, but the overall area under the curve is pathetic when compared with hotshot or cattman headers dynos. I mean, in all the headers dynos I’ve seen (at least non-stillen ones, where people gained and not lost hp) the plot was consistently 5-20hp above the baseline. The two lines don’t usually touch. However, the plot in for your dynos shows your headers making nothing over stock until 4500 rpms. That just seems sorry. It seems to me that any headers that were properly designed and developed should function much better than these. So could we see the other three dynos of your prototypes that lead to this final, optimized design? I don’t think anyone would have bought these headers after seeing these dynos. Just seems like proof from $tealin of how poorly designed your headers are. BTW, wasn’t stillen advertising a 25 hp gain???

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Very nicely said.

Guys, keep the FLAMES down and *MAYBE* we can get through to this rep FROM Stillen named Alex Cates, that their headers are NOT stacking up to their claims on REAL WORLD customer cars/dynos, so that they may decide to investigate WHY.

Thanks...

To Alex...better late then never and PLEASE attempt to figure out WHY your dynos aren't the norm for what we've seen on a few cars here and especially nowhere near what HS is laying down.

WILLSE

oh stillen is on here. i was one of the first .org memebers to purchase your headers. i found that i lost power and you guys made no attempt to help me in any way. i still to this day am not satified with your product and it will take alot for me to buy another one from u. i have been a very "pro-stillen" person in fact i have been buying from u for 3-4 years until u guys left me high and dry and took almost 1000 dollars and negative hp. u can look my name up if u feel like it (Will Albright). glad you guys finally came out to talk. what can u do for me?

will

92 SE-R 02 SE

STILLEN

2KGLE -

I'll see if we can re-run the dyno numbers in SAE. I wish that we had customers like you more often that could point out the HP and Torque deficiencies with our competitors' products. You do indeed need to look at the big picture as in the overall gains. But the posted gain is, of course the largest difference. Sorry you feel so strongly about the Cattman and HotShot products. That is the beauty of free market. You are more than able to purchase their products. If you are in SoCal, I'd like to show you the headers in person and perhaps try them on your vehicle and of course dyno them. Do you have them on your car now?

To clear things up, you are referring to the 3.5L 2002 - 2004 Maxima right? I see that your 'handle' is 2K. I'm not sure if you mean that to referrence that you have a 2000 Maxima with a 3.0L? In your case, if you are driving a 3L car, we can continue by talking about the racepipe we offer for your car.

You know, we had a very strong 350Z from Nissan last fall, which we used for testing. SPORT Z MAGAZINE'S dynoed it for their VIDEO at 250HP. We were all fairly stunned. That is 15 hp over ANY average. So, I know what you mean, it's a high baseline number. But, it is what it is, just like a weak car will have lower numbers.

I just thumbed through our new catalog to see if we had even more egg on our collective faces: Page 48 in our 2004 catalog lists 19 HP as we have been discussing.

Stereodude - thanks for the info on the dyno machine. The repeatability you are quoting is correct for the machine. It's the car that is subject to the variables, not the machine. I do appreciate the input though!

juice

iTrader: (6)

Stillen - Why are you eluding the question that was posted by Blubyu2k2 earlier. You have answered everyones questions within this thread except his. So now, I am asking you as the person who did these dynos and has had both headers on my vehicle. Both dynos were done a the same dyno shop 2 weeks apart and absolutley nothing on th car was altered except the headers. PLEASE explain your rationale as to the performance differences.

RED = Stillen
BLUE = Hotshot

Aside form peake number there are areas under the curve where the Hotshot headers displayed an increase of 10HP (i.e., 5000 rpms)

STILLEN

Not eluding. Just trying to answer as many questions on this board and 16 others at the same time. Sorry if you feel you were left out.

Ok. The first question is where is the baseline number? Before we 'discuss' anything about the dyno you posted and how to find a solution so that you are happy, we have to have that as a point of referrence. Otherwise I can't really analyse anything. What I want to find out is if we created 19HP +/- 1 or 2. I like to use ranges of HP and Torque rather than taking it to the nth degree of detail. Not even factory cars from the same assembly line produce the same numbers.

2nd - your dyno sheet does clearly state that a computer program has been changed. What was changed? It also looks like run 006 and 013 are showing the car having different programs from whatever the original was. Why do I assume this? As an outsider to the situation, I can only go by what I see and read. Read the dyno sheet and that is what I see.

3rd - the dynos could not have been done 2 weeks apart. Your sheet shows that they were performed almost 2 months apart. The dates listed are 1/13/04 and 3/19/04...

Trust me, I want to figure out the solution not prolong any sort of dispute. But I have to go by what is presented. What you are writing (typing) and what your dyno sheet indicates are 2 different things - and it looks like you are changing the computer program. Technosquare?

You would scream "FOUL" fairly LOUDLY if I presented to you a dyno sheet that was supposed to be for the exhaust only, but in the title of that run it says, "INTAKE, NO CATS and HEADERS". Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you also wonder whether or not I was being completely honest if I adamantly told you that we did the dynos back to back, yet the date on one run was November and the second run was January?.... And had yet another title on it.... like "Different INTAKE, NO CATS, AND HEADERS". You also would trust me if I told you that the system made 19 horsepower but the dyno showed it actually lost power.

Where are you located in relation to STILLEN in Costa Mesa, CA? Who did you purchase the parts from? If us, who is your sales person? Let us handle this directly with you not in front of the entire board. As much as everyone would love the drama and gossip, we will not handle customer service issues this way. It's not proper and you would expect the same of us. If you want to discuss the outcome and results, that is always your option. But we will not continue this on the board.

Yours in service,

Alex Cates
STILLEN

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

Alex,
Did I meet you at the 350 Z meet, when I was talking with Adam?

Anyway, question for you...

Would Stillen be willing to, at your costa mesa location, install a set of headers on a car and dyno it right there?

I'm sure there would be an org member willing to drive down (or up) to costa mesa for one day.

I know that it costs money for the install/uninstall and the dyno (although you do own your own machine) but maybe this would put the issue to bed, once and for all...

Blu

iTrader: (63)

I would love to see that happen, but I doubt it will. I still don't understand how Stillen can say the headers gained 19whp when it is just a little spike at a certain rpm they are measuring. I always thought when advertising you state the peak numbers before and after not a little spike to make the power sound more than it really is. In this situation they gained absolutely nothing until 4300rpms and then decided to read the power numbers at 6100 where it seems the biggest difference was. Fact is these headers weren't well designed and the runners are almost the same length as stock. The peak numbers are 14whp and 6 tq thats how it should be advertised, but what do I know its all about a little spike to make the product even more appealing to those who know nothing and just care about some big sounding peak number.

Stillen what does a baseline have to do with Juices dyno. There was nothing at all changed on his car from the Stillen to the HotShot header dyno. He had the TS ECU with your headers also hes not trying to trick you. The fact is the stillen headers are poorly designed and do not make any power under the curve which it clearly shows after the overlay of the hotshot dynos. The solution for him was to sell the stillen headers to someone who was an outsider and only saw what was advertised 19hp .

I got an idea. Id like to see someone int he CA area come to your shop that has the Hotshot headers. Install them dyno uninstall them and dyno the powerhouse stillen headers and then post up for the whole world to see. That would put an end to all this so how does that sound stillen?

STILLEN

HNDA ETR: I think that is a great idea. We would have to have a stock car. Let me see how we can work this out.

Regards!

AC

MaximaMan77

What's the deal with needing the car to be stock?
Does Stillen dyno all of their preformance parts on a car that is stock to begin with?
Lastly who is going to buy headers for their car and not have at least an intake or catback, if not both?

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

The idea is to have a BASELINE car to get numbers from...

This stops questions like, "how much of the power was gained from the intake" or "how much of the power was gained from the exhaust" or "how much of the power was gained from the intake and catback combo"

See what I mean? By dynoing on a STOCK car, the only variable will be the headers, not the headers and intake, not headers, intake and exhaust, etc...

I would wager that most companies dyno their products using an unmodified vehicle - this gives them the most accurate representation of the performance of the particular part they're testing. Unskewed by factors such as other mods.

Of course, a well designed product should perform well on it's own AS WELL as complement other products from the same manufacturer. So, for example, the Stillen headers would show 19 hp on a stock car. An intake and catback exhaust, may show 8 hp by themselves , and put them all together and instead of just adding 19+8=27hp you may get 30hp... this shows how the 3 products together complement each other and give you better performance...

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

Great! Hopefully the powers that be will see the benefit of doing this...

Let me know if and when you do it... I'll probably come down to watch (as well as haggle Adam on prices for some stuff...)

frankieduxAE

iTrader: (3)

i'll be down to check this out too. I live 10 min. away from Costa Mesa over in Irvine. I'd like to see and hear the Stillen Headers.

Will Stillen be making a VQ30 header to compete with Cattman?

STILLEN

Standing by.

I'll be posting yet another round of dyno sheets from another 3.5L stock maxima. We were able to duplicate the numbers.

So, today, I will be posting the data, dyno sheets and a call for a willing participant on the board from the SoCal area with a 3.5L Maxima that is stock or only has simple bolt-ons installed.

We will put the vehicle to stock, perform a base line. Install the STILLEN headers and run another dyno to show that these headers will yield 19 HP +/- 1 or 2 depending on conditions and geographic location.

It will be nice to finally clear up the confusion. I feel that if we can find a board member willing to use their car, we will finally bring an end to the debate. Anyone who wants to be here to watch & witness will be welcome. No smoke and mirrors.

Stand by please.

AC

Blu

iTrader: (63)

Thats really nice now to answer my question would you be willing to put your headers up against the Hotshot headers and post the results. I'd really like to see that