KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

hey guys, my car is in the shop right now and i was wondering about how much would it be to return the coils for the alternator? its getting done right now and they said the alternator on the 5th gen was special or some crap like that.

any ballpark figures on price so i know if im not being gipped?

thanks guys

HitManSE

iTrader: (1)

Special

Zero Deuce SE

I guess I'm not the only one that does not understand your question.

KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

i have a stereo. i have 1600 watts. i have 3 amps. 2 huge subs. 2 huge caps. an alternator that needs more power. the alternator is in the shop and they are turning the coils or something like that to make it more powerful. does anyone know a price range for that?

cheetor

Getting ripped off by a scam? Priceless.

Sorry, I don't really know, but the time to check that stuff is BEFORE you take it in. Returning the alternator coils? Sounds like remodulating the shield frequencies or retuning the Heisenberg compensators on the nacelles would do a better job of it.

KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

wtf are u talking about? alternator shops upgrade your alternator by 'turning your coils' as im talking about. they use thicker guage inside of the alernator. i just needed to know a fair installed price.

HitManSE

iTrader: (1)

Just get another Yellow top I have two of them
I think ill get a cap sooner or later but I dont think I really need it... not yet anyway.

The alternator should be able to hold up just fine, just upgrade the wiring & all your grounds under the hood. The OEM alternator wire is I belive 8guage but is capable of holding the highest amount of amperage the alternator is capable of charging.
You can add a 4-guage to that & it will decrease resistance but I dont think you'll need to go as large as 1/0 guage considering the lenght isnt too long.

Id worry about the alternator last, but if you feel the need to upgrade it, dont go too high in amperage. 130-140a should be MORE then enough to suit 1600rms. Any more then that will unnecessarily just suck power from you engine. After all it takes energy to make energy.

KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

ya ur right. i have a yellow top, 2 farad caps, 1/0 wiring sucking 1600rms, lights dim a bit, but i had 2 w3v2s pushing before, now theyre w6v2s so ill actually be using all of my juice. the shop recommended me doing it so i told em to go ahead..

they were trying to rape me by charging me 400
then during the install he said 140 more. i called around got quotes for 350 installed maximum so im not paying him more than 350...

thanks

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

oh boy....it's re-winding your alternator.
basically they're adding more coils to it, increasing the current (in amperes) it can charge up. good things and bad thigns to this.
good thing is that yes, a stock 110A (icey2k1, you were right) that is being re-wound can be brough up to as much as 150-160A, more if you can fit the coils inside the alternator casing. sounds cool, right!!! WRONG. usually shops will just add more coils, but in order to charge 110A, you need diodes that can handle that charge. if they don't upgrade the diodes, or add more diodes to handle the extra current, then your alt. is going to overheat and F-R-Y...guaranteed. adding more coils is a simple solution but there are more parts to keep that charge safe.

the cost, i've heard shops charge in the area of $1-$2 per amp. so a raise of 50A to your stock alt can cost roughly $50-$100. i'm not sure if htat includes upgrading the diodes as well, which may cost more, OR may already be included.

edit: the shops that charge $1-$2 are not audio shops. you need to find those low key electrical shops that just know how to do electrical work. audio shops take advantage of the fact that they know you're willing to pay $$$ to do stuff to your car, whereas an electrical shop sees upgrading the alternator as a necessity in case you're towing something, adding extra lights, sirens (ie emergency vehicles, attaching tow machines, etc...)

i must say though, upgrading the alternator (or it's handling power) is the #1 way to improve your system. ours are always yearning more power, and nothing else will keep the voltage stabilized, especially when we're pushing 1200+ watts. a weak alternator will drop that voltage down to dangerous levels, where you won't be producing as many watts, and will prolly send spikes into your setup, eventually bustin up your stuff.

i have spoken

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

Killer, i already told tony fernandes this and he agreed. our cars dim for wahtever reason. sneeze, and your lights will dim. there is no avoidance, any fluxation in power, no matter how slight, will dim your lights. that's just out our power setup in our cars. to fully understand whether you need more or have enough power going through your setup, you'll want to setup an active voltage gauge, where you can see your numbers 24/7. if you complain about dimming at idle, well then buy 10 batteries plus 50 caps, cause nothing is gonna help you. if they dim A LOT while driving, well then a volt gauge will backup your suspicion that you need more power. also, you say 1600w, but are you sure it's 1600w. have you tapped a current (amp) meter onto your wires to see. i put a high current meter once and put out 130A. that calculated to around 1700+watts. then, as someone corrected me once before, you ahve to take efficiency into consideration. so yeah, i'm pushin power, but am i worried. not really. when driving, i run steady high 12's to low 13's on my voltmeter. without knowing your current voltage while driving, you're not gonna know what you need. and no, testing at idle wont' help. at idle (~600rpm) you're lucky to be putting out 50A, so it's obvious that your lights will dim.

my suggestion, buy a dakota digital volt gauge or a stinger volt gauge. wire them into your dash and then you can monitor your current(A) drain.

HitManSE

iTrader: (1)

Marco that is a good point, but I have to say ive never seen HID's dim be4 :P I guess I know what im buying next. I still have a few more things to work out be4 Im done

KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

wow nice points marco. looks like someone did his alternator research. im gonna go in today and ask him about the diodes. the alternator will be ready today installed by the afternoon, so hopefully they did the diodes, otherwise ill knock more off the price. i have 2 monster caps reading me my voltage, inside the car i have a passport 8500 with voltmeter capabilites. i dont know how accurate it is, but with the w3v2's and 500 watts less of an amp, i was running 13.2-14.1.

i just hope they know what theyre doing, otherwise im gonna be mad

thanks marco and hitman =]

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

hmm. i'd say those are good numbers...in fact very good numbers. but if you've never seen 12's, then i wouldn't trust that voltmeter. with that kinda setup, i'ts guaranteed you were hitting 12's and into the 11's. when i'm pumping and i'm at idle, i hit 11.4-11.6v always (yellowtop+5farad) the second i rev up, it jumps to 13.1 and then on the expressway i hit 13.6-13.9v.

something else to note, even the best of the best aren't voltage proof. what i mean is that even for them, their voltage dips. we usually compare systems with what we see at shows. those cars are connected to the floor, using regular outlets. those things charge up so fast and that's the reason you see 14.4 constantly and never once below. once they're on the street, especially if their setup is made for daily drivers, they'll drop voltage. there is no avoiding it.

you can't pump your sound forever. when i'm driving, if i'm pumping it and i see my voltage drop into the 11's and stay there (i also have a set limit at 11.7, so it starts to blink a lot to warn me when i hit that level) i just lower the bass control. when i feel the alternator has "caught up" to a good voltage level, i raise the boost. just gotta control it.

since wer'e on topic with energy control. i noticed somethign the toher day. while in idle, i was steadily at 13.7v. i turned on my rear defroster, it dropped to 12.4v. for those of us that consider this something crazy, 1.3V!!! just for turning on the defroster. while driveing though, i tested it again, and it dropped .4v. still though, that caught me by surprise. who woulda thought how much power the defroster takes up. i think i'm gonna start testing my compoents to see what really uses up energy.

btw, our headlights...the voltmeter barely flinched. shows how efficient they are

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

When the alternator's already taken close to capacity, it doesn't take much for the voltage to drop, i.e. turning on the defroster may have had a bigger effect than you'd expect... (although I think it does draw a fair share of power)

MyownNismo

iTrader: (13)

It's not returning coils it's turning coils. It's the same principal as R/C car electric motors, The more turns of wire the faster it will go. So the more turns in the alternator the faster it will charge. THey thing with that is you will have to upgrade your wire from the alternator to the battery if not done allready to a larger gauge to handle the increase. As for a price I don't remember but I know it came be done since I had it done to my Beretta. Stinger electronics makes high current alternaters but charge a arm and a leg.

MyownNismo

iTrader: (13)

It's simple you just burnt out your alternater and turning it will help deal with your high current demand.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Winding alternator coils refers to re-winding the center rotor portion, correct?

Here's how I understand alternators operate... please correct me if I'm wrong:
Current is sent through the center rotor coil, which produces a magnetic field around the rotor. This rotor is then rotated by the mechanical action of the belts/pulleys. Around the rotor are 3 other coils, called stators. The action of a magnetic field rotating induces current in the stators, which pass their alternating current (a rotating magnetic field will induce AC on a nearby conductor) through the diodes (bridge rectifier) to produce 3-phase pulsed DC. This is sent back to the battery, and also through conductors (at the battery?) to the rest of the electrical system.
The amount of current induced into the stator is a function of rotational speed, and more importantly, the strength of the magnetic field emanating from the rotor coil. The current supply for the rotor coil is actually produced by the Voltage Regulator, which connects electrical system voltage to the rotor coil (passing it through brushes which constantly touch the rotor's slip rings), and adjusts the resistance between electrical system voltage and the rotor coil in response to voltage changes in the electrical system (I guess the goal is to keep electrical system voltage somewhere around +1-2V above battery voltage?)
So rewinding the rotor coil, in this case, would make it so that less current is required through the rotor coil to produce the same rotor magnetic field as before. This is because more windings in a coil "concentrate the flux" more, basically making the electro-magnet more efficient. So your alternator can put out more peak current (because, with the voltage regulator exposing the rotor to near-full-electrical system voltage, a stronger magnetic field is produced by the rotor than before), and I guess it should also prolong the life of the voltage regulator in normal conditions, since the voltage regulator doesn't have to pass as much current as before?

Or do I sound like I just smoked something?

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

other than a comma or 2, i think your'e right...

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Word!

So now the Q is... what kind of wire do you use to rewind the rotor (can ceramic-coated wire from radioshack do the trick?), and where do you buy upgraded diodes?

An alternator is something I've never cracked open before. I want to try it sometime... anyone have a spare junk alternator a 2000 could take?

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

4th/5th gen alts are supposedly swappable. and the 99's came 125A, something like that? in either case, would be easier to find a junkyard piece from an older year.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Good call. Will have to add that to my "to-do wishlist" (i.e. things I wish I could add to my "todo" list)

woosh

Spirilis for the most part you are correct except it:
produces 3 phased AC before the bridge rectifier, because of 120deg separation between the 3 windings. After the bridge it's just pulsating DC (no phase) (just the crest of each sine wave after absolute value).

water-cooled twin-turbo power plant dreams
SHIFT_woosh

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I pondered rewriting it as such, just decided to let the words slip through the way I wrote them above instead

HitManSE

iTrader: (1)

Oh I think I should also make one more thing to take note of if any1 is going to use a second battery, yeah it will do something. What it will do is slow down the rate at which your voltage drops.
It will basically cut it in half, so you could drive around pounding like hell and it will take longer to reach your 11.7v limit.

Btw Marco-were exacty do you have that digital meter mounted anyway? im looking for ideas here , also im going to be dropping you an email soon regarding my setup & its current status. Im afraid to turn the HU up past 50 right now...I feel like my trunk lid is going to blow off, rear window & roof both flex like hell & the sub is still breaking in! Im only feeding it 500rms for now...

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

First Face Lift:


Second Face Lift:



Third Face Lift:


And yes, i am doing it for a FOURTH time. thsi time i came up with an even better idea, but i'm waiting for warmer weather to arrive.

edit: the switch controls the screen in case po-po is around. the **** is my diamond audio bass control. i took the thing apart and was able to place the **** only through the plexiglass.

HitManSE

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm...not bad, not bad at all. I think im going to have to do that. I have my gains control mounted in the same place, but this way it will close off that little gap in the pocket so I wont lose anymore cds

As always, Nice idea

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Hmm OK, so my question still stands--What kind of wire do you buy for the rotor coil, and where do you source higher-current-capable diodes that are compatible?
Or is there a specific "type" of diode you look for, and just check electronics suppliers for diodes of that type with appropriate temperature tolerance?

woosh

Ceramic coated wire with magnetic properties and the proper gauge to handle your target current - pretty expensive wire

The diodes just need to handle the reverse rated current of what you are flowing plus a buffer of about 10% for surges.


A world of innocence ruled by corruption
SHIFT_woosh

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

I was looking for a more specific answer... (i.e., what gauge is the existing wire? what "type" of diodes do we use, what form factor, etc...)
Maybe it's time to do some google searching if nobody on here know...

woosh

I hope you are not thinking of trying this alternator upgrade yourself?

I dunno where you can get the magnetic wire at the gauge needed. The gauge needed will depend partly on the length of wire required for the winding. I estimate you are looking at 10 gauge single strand, at least.

You can get standard diodes that can withstand a reverse voltage of 100v+ and 160A + at
www.digikey.com
www.mouser.com

dunno if this link will work, if not enter "diode" in search then pick which current you want "200" then click apply filters.
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea....dll?Selection

KLOOGY

iTrader: (12)

I really dont get much dimming, except in my console lights......Killer, that is a ripoff ! I have seen chrome aftermarket alternators for less than that !........thats insane !

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Excellent, thank you much!

As for doing it myself... umm, perhaps
I've always wanted to take on such a job before... if I ever do it I'll be buying a junkyard alternator and toying with it for a while.

KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

they said its putting out about 190-200 amps, somehow, i dont believe them and i dont want it that high. im gonna get it rated at autozone.

i got a stupid whine now that works with the rpm. its so annoying

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

a whining noise? that's bad... maybe they screwed up a grounding point? (not sure what alternator whine comes from, so that's a shot in the dark...)

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

alternator noise is bad grounding, simple as that. a high current alternator wouldn't cause whine, or at least i don't think. i would check your headunit grounding. some people wire groudn them to very bad ground. run your own ground wire. are all your amps significantly grounded. what did they touch on the car. double check their work, or better yet, just go to them. "listen, i have a noise i did not have before. fix it"

another simple way is to disconnect each amp, 1 by 1. if the noise goas away, the grounding issue is with that specific amp.
secondly, if you're alt. is now 190-200 and you still feel that the car idles fine (side effects include rough idle) and still maintains the same power (another side effect, loss of power) then you should NOT be complaining at all and i am now officially jealous.
then again, ask them what they did to compensate for the diodes that are rated to handle the alternator nominal current rating.

seriously though, if you have no other side effects, i'm quite jealous.

KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

i have a little rough idle. the car shakes a bit, hardly noticable. only noticeable by me and my fixing up friend ,

u were right marco, it was from a ground,
they put in a turbo 1 pac converter for some reason and grounded that into my 300/4 amp. im gonna complain to them.

also my bass was working fine, but it was cutting out every few beats lately, now it wont hit at all. its just like background noise... again, im gonna go to those guys and see what they have to say

HitManSE

iTrader: (1)

They will say...its not their fault what else