Ignition timing advance - pros,cons
06-23-2004, 12:06 PM
#2
Originally Posted by nailz420
What are the pro's and con's of ignition timing advance? How much of an advance would be beneficial+safe?
Tim
Tim
06-23-2004, 12:34 PM
#5
Originally Posted by Wardo
More timing adds low end power and takes away from high end power.
06-23-2004, 12:36 PM
#7
Originally Posted by ChromeSE5
anyone know how? or is this a strictly consult 2 thing? my friend has a timing light and multimeter.
06-25-2004, 11:01 AM
#8
Newbie - Just Registered
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by sloppymax
advancing the timing does not take away power from the top end. it simply does not affect it with only 2-3 degrees of timing. it should also help fuel mileage as the motor is working more efficiently.
You base this on what? Timing sets the power curve, plan and simple. Lower timing kills bottom end and moves HP up in the RPM range/to a higher rpm, more timing makes low RPM timing but the motor wont pull as hard at higher RPM.
2-3* of timing, at least in a SBC, will range HP from 5-10 horse at the same RPM in each direction.
06-25-2004, 04:32 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,816
dude you are smoking some good crack.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
06-27-2004, 08:31 AM
#10
Originally Posted by Chinkzilla
dude you are smoking some good crack.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
06-27-2004, 05:32 PM
#11
06-28-2004, 05:07 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Chinkzilla
dude you are smoking some good crack.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
06-28-2004, 05:22 AM
#13
Originally Posted by kcowden
Will advanced timing cause any knocking problems?
06-28-2004, 12:30 PM
#14
Ok, I have read like 4 or 5 links on this modification...
It seems like it is safe to do OR has someone had problems with this mod??
Also does anybody know of a dealership in Dallas/Fort Worth Area that will perform this mod and how much would they charge?? I tried to explain to some service reps over phone and they did not want to do it...
Thanks for the info...
It seems like it is safe to do OR has someone had problems with this mod??
Also does anybody know of a dealership in Dallas/Fort Worth Area that will perform this mod and how much would they charge?? I tried to explain to some service reps over phone and they did not want to do it...
Thanks for the info...
06-29-2004, 03:49 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by Chinkzilla
dude you are smoking some good crack.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
Advanced timing should increase responsiveness and power across the powerband. however the timing change affects only open loop operation which is non WOT. This is why you only feel the benefits usually driving around town or at partial throttle. In closed loop operation, the ECU reads from a predetermined table of parameters.
retarding your timing does NOT give you more high end power. I have NO idea where you are getting this information. There is a possibility that if you are getting engine knock at higher RPM's that if you retard the timing it will cause the knock sensor not to go off thus allowing you to continue making power. But in almost all cases that I've observed retarding timing will cause you to lose power in N/A situations.
Maybe you are confusing the issue with FI and NO2 cars which HAVE to retard their timing to deal with the added heat and increased cylinder pressures to avoid detonation. In these cases retarding your timing allows you to turn up the boost or run a larger shot.
06-29-2004, 11:36 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,816
oops 
your right about the open/closed loop thing.
The guy said advanced timing gives you more low end, and retarded timing gives you more high end. That's retarded.
I meant to say that if you're already getting predetonation, and you retard your timing you might see some high end gain from your knock sensor NOT going off. get it?
I've seen dyno's of turbo cars that drop off 30-40 whp at like 5000rpm when the knock sensor starts going crazy.
your right about the open/closed loop thing.
The guy said advanced timing gives you more low end, and retarded timing gives you more high end. That's retarded.
I meant to say that if you're already getting predetonation, and you retard your timing you might see some high end gain from your knock sensor NOT going off. get it?
I've seen dyno's of turbo cars that drop off 30-40 whp at like 5000rpm when the knock sensor starts going crazy.
06-30-2004, 03:17 AM
#17
newbie question
I'm in the boat with Morpheous....
The master tech at the local dealer says that this mod cannot be done - specifically you can change the timing all over the place with the Consult II hooked up, but the minute it is unhooked the ECU puts the timing back to factory. What's up?
Also, I was curious about this mod because I get detonation, even with 93 octane. I was interested in retarding my timing one or two degrees to prevent the detonation (hopefully).
What's the deal?
The master tech at the local dealer says that this mod cannot be done - specifically you can change the timing all over the place with the Consult II hooked up, but the minute it is unhooked the ECU puts the timing back to factory. What's up?
Also, I was curious about this mod because I get detonation, even with 93 octane. I was interested in retarding my timing one or two degrees to prevent the detonation (hopefully).
What's the deal?
06-30-2004, 04:06 AM
#18
Originally Posted by burnout
I'm in the boat with Morpheous....
The master tech at the local dealer says that this mod cannot be done - specifically you can change the timing all over the place with the Consult II hooked up, but the minute it is unhooked the ECU puts the timing back to factory. What's up?
Also, I was curious about this mod because I get detonation, even with 93 octane. I was interested in retarding my timing one or two degrees to prevent the detonation (hopefully).
What's the deal?
The master tech at the local dealer says that this mod cannot be done - specifically you can change the timing all over the place with the Consult II hooked up, but the minute it is unhooked the ECU puts the timing back to factory. What's up?
Also, I was curious about this mod because I get detonation, even with 93 octane. I was interested in retarding my timing one or two degrees to prevent the detonation (hopefully).
What's the deal?
They are full of it. Timing can be advanced on the Consult II all the way up to 20^ BTDC (for our 2002+ VQ35 powered cars, you have to do the idle air volume learning process to go past 17^ BTDC). I would not suggest running 20^ BTDC on the street, but 17^ BTDC is definitely good
06-30-2004, 04:16 AM
#19
How do I .....
How do I tell them they are full of sh**, without alienating myself. Quicksilver, I have seen several of your posts and responses, you are obviously knowledgeable and understand the timing/spark knock issue.
Can you offer any assistance to this: I've got an 02 with the 3.5 and have always run premium fuel. I still get slight pinging (as I have seen other places on this board) and can't take it anymore.
My car has about 55k on it. The dealer's standard response is to let the computer retard the timing slightly to compensate. My experience is that ANY pinging in NOT a normal operating condition.
I am thinking about taking the car in repeatedly until they get fed up with seeing me and provide some fix. I would even accept retarding the timing slightly and would probably have better performance (since the computer would not be retarding it for me). That is assuming I can get the pingning to stop. I have even run two cans of BG44 through it.
Any suggestions......
Can you offer any assistance to this: I've got an 02 with the 3.5 and have always run premium fuel. I still get slight pinging (as I have seen other places on this board) and can't take it anymore.
My car has about 55k on it. The dealer's standard response is to let the computer retard the timing slightly to compensate. My experience is that ANY pinging in NOT a normal operating condition.
I am thinking about taking the car in repeatedly until they get fed up with seeing me and provide some fix. I would even accept retarding the timing slightly and would probably have better performance (since the computer would not be retarding it for me). That is assuming I can get the pingning to stop. I have even run two cans of BG44 through it.
Any suggestions......
06-30-2004, 06:24 AM
#20
Originally Posted by burnout
How do I tell them they are full of sh**, without alienating myself. Quicksilver, I have seen several of your posts and responses, you are obviously knowledgeable and understand the timing/spark knock issue.
Can you offer any assistance to this: I've got an 02 with the 3.5 and have always run premium fuel. I still get slight pinging (as I have seen other places on this board) and can't take it anymore.
My car has about 55k on it. The dealer's standard response is to let the computer retard the timing slightly to compensate. My experience is that ANY pinging in NOT a normal operating condition.
I am thinking about taking the car in repeatedly until they get fed up with seeing me and provide some fix. I would even accept retarding the timing slightly and would probably have better performance (since the computer would not be retarding it for me). That is assuming I can get the pingning to stop. I have even run two cans of BG44 through it.
Any suggestions......
Can you offer any assistance to this: I've got an 02 with the 3.5 and have always run premium fuel. I still get slight pinging (as I have seen other places on this board) and can't take it anymore.
My car has about 55k on it. The dealer's standard response is to let the computer retard the timing slightly to compensate. My experience is that ANY pinging in NOT a normal operating condition.
I am thinking about taking the car in repeatedly until they get fed up with seeing me and provide some fix. I would even accept retarding the timing slightly and would probably have better performance (since the computer would not be retarding it for me). That is assuming I can get the pingning to stop. I have even run two cans of BG44 through it.
Any suggestions......
06-30-2004, 01:01 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Spin20
I just got back from my dealer and he said that once he unplugs the consult II the car will automatically go back to 14 degrees.
He is wrong.
Read the links about this mod and you'll understand. A Nissan Tech advanced my timing and has told it would stay at 17 degrees. He went as far as to say that even if the battery was disconnected for over 24 hrs, the advanced timing would not change.
This has been tested by orgers getting their timing advanced and then returning to the dealership to check the status with the results being that the advanced timing change remained in place.
06-30-2004, 01:52 PM
#23
Originally Posted by 03BlkSETE
He is wrong.
Read the links about this mod and you'll understand. A Nissan Tech advanced my timing and has told it would stay at 17 degrees. He went as far as to say that even if the battery was disconnected for over 24 hrs, the advanced timing would not change.
This has been tested by orgers getting their timing advanced and then returning to the dealership to check the status with the results being that the advanced timing change remained in place.
Read the links about this mod and you'll understand. A Nissan Tech advanced my timing and has told it would stay at 17 degrees. He went as far as to say that even if the battery was disconnected for over 24 hrs, the advanced timing would not change.
This has been tested by orgers getting their timing advanced and then returning to the dealership to check the status with the results being that the advanced timing change remained in place.
06-30-2004, 05:58 PM
#24
Ok. You can advance the timing on the car. Make sure the car is warmed up. You may have to do this a couple of times but soon it should stick after a few tries. This was the case with me and a couple of other on the org. The advance would not stick and after a couple of tries it would. This can only be done with the consult II. Plug it in and have it advanced. If you have knock the engine will retard the timing for you. Also. Good luck finding a dealer who is willing to do this. If you do you are lucky. A lot of dealers do not want to do this. I got lucky and after the6th nissan dealership i went to they did it for free for me.
06-30-2004, 06:45 PM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by burnout
How do I tell them they are full of sh**, without alienating myself. Quicksilver, I have seen several of your posts and responses, you are obviously knowledgeable and understand the timing/spark knock issue.
Can you offer any assistance to this: I've got an 02 with the 3.5 and have always run premium fuel. I still get slight pinging (as I have seen other places on this board) and can't take it anymore.
My car has about 55k on it. The dealer's standard response is to let the computer retard the timing slightly to compensate. My experience is that ANY pinging in NOT a normal operating condition.
I am thinking about taking the car in repeatedly until they get fed up with seeing me and provide some fix. I would even accept retarding the timing slightly and would probably have better performance (since the computer would not be retarding it for me). That is assuming I can get the pingning to stop. I have even run two cans of BG44 through it.
Any suggestions......
Can you offer any assistance to this: I've got an 02 with the 3.5 and have always run premium fuel. I still get slight pinging (as I have seen other places on this board) and can't take it anymore.
My car has about 55k on it. The dealer's standard response is to let the computer retard the timing slightly to compensate. My experience is that ANY pinging in NOT a normal operating condition.
I am thinking about taking the car in repeatedly until they get fed up with seeing me and provide some fix. I would even accept retarding the timing slightly and would probably have better performance (since the computer would not be retarding it for me). That is assuming I can get the pingning to stop. I have even run two cans of BG44 through it.
Any suggestions......
07-01-2004, 06:59 AM
#28
Originally Posted by Quicksilver
Do you live in an area where the summertime temps get pretty high? If so, then I would say go with one step colder plugs. I had to do it in my truck (have a lot of mods as well, though). Try the simplest things first...
07-01-2004, 07:54 AM
#31
Originally Posted by doublea
Hey guys, this thread is quite interesting, but I'm wondering where the consult II can be purchase ?
Thank you.
AA
Thank you.
AA
man, you guys just need the TS ecu for advanced timing and tuned fuel maps
07-01-2004, 08:06 AM
#32
Originally Posted by Fezzik
consult II purchase lol... They cost 4 grand. Not cheap. The only places that will have it is nissan dealerships. Its not worth for any shop to buy just the consult to see the nissans ecu.
07-01-2004, 01:40 PM
#33
Originally Posted by Larrio
from nissan for $4000
man, you guys just need the TS ecu for advanced timing and tuned fuel maps
man, you guys just need the TS ecu for advanced timing and tuned fuel maps
AA
07-01-2004, 08:25 PM
#34
Originally Posted by doublea
Ya the TS ecu for 2K1 I hope they release it before I get retired and loose my driver licence. Lol. Seriously any word the release date.
AA
AA
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