spirilis

iTrader: (2)

On the way home today I noticed my car was starting to shake a lot more than normal... I've (in the recent month or so) felt this to a certain extent because I think my wheels are out of balance, but this was more profound. The noise seemed to come from the left front wheel, so I pulled over at a Park'n'Ride and looked at it. 3 of the 5 lugnuts were coming LOOSE! I promptly tightened all 5 of them down with a little more force than I typically use on the torque wrench, and proceeded to do so on all 4 wheels just to be sure. Only that wheel had severely loose lugnuts... there might have been another lugnut or 2 on the other wheels that was looser than the rest, but still pretty tight.

The ride home was a little smoother, braking-wise. I noticed a little vibration at high speeds, and I still feel a little vibration from the wheels while cruising along, but after a half hour of driving on the backroads leading to Hanover (from I-83), the braking got a little smoother. Now I barely even notice any shaking while applying the brakes, although I've only had it up to ~50MPH tops since then. I'll see how it is tomorrow.

This is puzzling me because I swear to GOD I torqued all 5 lugnuts of the front driver's side wheel after I pulled off the wheel/caliper/pads to inspect them last week. Torqued to 85 ft/lbs. Either my torque wrench is way out of calibration (probable; it's also very rusty), or something else whack is going on. Note that a few months ago, I had that same wheel's lugnuts become a little loose while driving home from VA on US-15... pulled over when I heard the sound become pretty much louder than normal.

So maybe my 2k4 rotors were "warping" because of that--improper lugnut tightening on the front left wheel. Still doesn't explain the pad material transfer I saw earlier, but maybe the recent "smoothing out" of the brakes is due to the pads cleaning off the rotors now that they're spinning straight? I'll have to inspect the rotors tomorrow in the sun...

Moral of the story: After your lugnuts are ever removed and reinstalled, RE-CHECK THE TORQUE after ~50-100 miles of driving.

UMD_MaxSE

iTrader: (1)

damn... that happened to me once... My passenger side wheel came super loose on the interstate and whenever I hit the brakes I'd hear this clunk and braking was really bad. This happened two years ago and since I have learned to tighten my lugs twice after taking your wheels off. After remounting wheels, you should hit the lugs again after a 100 miles or so to be safe...

The loose lugs could definitely cause the warping... good you caught it

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to get the wheels rebalanced soon, then see how the brakes are after that... if I still feel vibration, I'll get the rotors turned and try different pads. But if the brakes stay smooth, I will jump in glee 'cause I love the sickening braking power of the Metal Masters + 2k4 rotors

UMD_MaxSE

iTrader: (1)

you should try Z calipers with the Axxis MM pads... I scared my passengers yesterday by hitting the brakes a tad harder than usual

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

I'm on stock wheels (and don't intend to change anytime soon)...

Just curiosity-- How much did the Z calipers cost, where did you buy them, how much did the Axxis MM for Z cost, and I assume the BlehmCo bracket for the Z calipers is different than the OEM caliper bracket...

Donkey®

iTrader: (3)

This is funny. I got my car back out of the shop on Friday. I drove 85 miles one way in caravan to the D.C. BBQ....at times, the speed was a little excessive (Stupid Requin and his 'supercharger' thought he could smoke me by 50 lengths...I kept him to 20). Anyway, the moral of the story...the next day I was washing my wheels and hit the lug nut with my hand and it fell off! I almost fainted. So I check the others (left front) 4 out of 5 twist off with no effort. My life flashing before my eyes, I put them back on and tightened them. Apparently, I left the shop with them loose. The stupid brakes were squealing and the wheel was shaking pretty badly the whole time before I caught the unfortunate 'mistake'. Afterwards? Rides like a dream. I can say that only fate saved me...that one stupid lug held the wheel on.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

wow those sounded like disasters waiting to happen...on my triumph I had the same thing...right rear lugs apparently I forgot to tighten enough after tire rotation...on the highway there is wicked vibration and then a bang....I stop immediately....three lugnuts were very loose (about 1/2 way off) and the fourth (its a 4-lug hub) lug had broken off completely. Tightened the three down and limped home at 25mph.....scary.

Spirilis, I also think that if your rim is bent (its possible, I did it last winter) or the tire is out of balance, it could cause the lugnuts to loosen and also cause the vibration. I wouldn't worry too much about the rotors until you have the tires balanced and rim checked for being out of round, even just slightly (as mine was)....

UMD_MaxSE

iTrader: (1)

I got the calipers (fully rebuilt and painted), relocation bracket, SS lines, pads, and all new shim hardware from a member here... $500 shipped if I recall correctly... The rotors were slotted 2k4 rotors from Irotors... $158 shipped. Basically, the only thing I had to get in addition was a $4 bottle of valvoline synthetic DOT3/DOT4 brake fluid and a flare nut wrench that I didn't have... All in all, it cost $660 for everything... plus my own labor, which was free

ZIPPIN

iTrader: (32)

i always check them after 100 or so miles. i got my wheels balanced 2 weeks ago. i switch to OEM rims when i drive to chi. last weekend when i was switching, i had to loosen the lugs with my leg torque. the fuqers at discount tire over-tightened them..

so yes always check the lugs.....

kwd2kSE

So, are you saying the brake kit is the problem, or wheels that are improperly torqued/loosening the problem?

MiniRX7

I bet that it was you who had put the lugs on in the first place, stop blaming the shop you

panda_1

iTrader: (4)

The Same **** Happened To Me The Day I Installed My Blehmco Bbk, I Tightened Them Up, Funny It Only Happened On My Driver Side Rim And Then Nothing.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

The latter. At this point I cannot implicate the brake kit as being "faulty" in any way until I've resolved my wheel/lugnut issues.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Ouch!!

Basically the same thing... luckily, I know what it sounds like when the lugnuts are coming loose. One of the wheels starts to sound really loud, and there is noticeable vibration in the car/steering wheel.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, second time this has happened to my driver's side rim... (first time was before I had the blehmco kit, so the kit has nothing to do with it.)

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Yeah that's a possibility... I also considered the idea that maybe some of my studs on that wheel are slightly warped/bent... I'll have to check. I just hope the rotor's hat didn't permanently warp (in the real use of the word "warp"...)

Bucket

Pull the wheel and check the studs to make sure they are still tight. This happened to me when gomer inspection mechanic forgot to tighten the lugs on a previous car. The studs were damaged from the vibration.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

I'll have to get to that sometime soon. (inspecting the studs)

Initial impression after tightening the lugs-
Below ~50MPH (at or above which I notice shimmy in the steering wheel while cruising along), the brakes are smooth as butter. Much, much better.
Above 50MPH, under light braking pressure, there is no significant judder in the steering wheel. Under moderate-to-heavy braking pressure, there is significant judder in the steering wheel. Note that this coincides with extra judder in the steering wheel while cruising along without applying the brakes...

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

That sounds like a ball joint or a tie rod end issue there. usually with warped brakes, you'll feel it most under light braking and it will go away under heavy braking.


Also, one of the things I've noticed (now that I'm swapping street and track wheels every few weeks), My 5Zigens have powdercoat that was applied to the back of the wheel where it contacts the rotor.. After being on the track, the wheels get so hot that the powdercoat starts to melt and ooze out of the joint- which causes the lugs to loosen since there's nothing pushing back on them.
so when I'm at the track, I have to loosen and re-torque the lug nuts after EVERY session.
At the end of the day, I pull the wheels off and scrape the powdercoating goo off my rotor hats before putting my street wheels back on.. my street wheels almost never lose torque, but my track ones do. they're getting much better now that almost all of the powdercoating is gone.

So that's just one more thing to look at on why your wheels are losing lugnut torque- sometimes it's not just the goober at the tire shop. As with any wheels or any service, BE SURE TO RECHECK YOUR LUG TORQUE IMMEDIATELY AFTER TAKING IT TO THE SHOP AND AGAIN AFTER 50 AND 100 MILES!.

As has been mentioned several times here- often the goobers forget to torque them, or impact them on.
If I'm at the shop and I don't watch them torque my lugs, I pull out my wrench and do it before I ever leave the service bay.


Back to the vibration issue... many times a judder under heavy braking and cruising is because of a worn tie rod end. I had this problem for two years and could never figure it out- I replace wheels, tires, springs, struts, strut mounts, etc.. but I couldn't feel any play in the tie rod end itself so I never changed it. Finally I just broke down and bought new ones (heck, 200k miles and they're still OEM... can't hurt, right?! ) and all of the vibration problems went away. I was having the exact same symptoms as you.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

This makes more sense because when I first installed the BlehmCo kit, I did notice slight shimmy at high speed under heavy braking, but never noticed it anywhere else so I didn't suspect anything.

Can a shop inspect the tie-rod ends and tell me for sure if they're bad? I should call up DAVEB and ask how much they are... as a side note, I'm due for an alignment soon too

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Actually, can tie-rod ends be replaced by yourself if you matchmark the tie rod position, etc? Or is it best done at a shop, where they can do the alignment directly afterwards?

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

Best way I've found to check... it takes two people, but it's easy..

have one person reach under the car and grab the tie rod end, right where it attaches to the knuckle- so that their hand is touching both pieces..
now have someone else wiggle the wheel back and forth quickly.. you'll feel any play in it because the tie rod end will move slightly and the knuckle won't.. If you notice any movement between the two, then you need to replace it..

As far as replacing them, they're around $50 each from the dealer, or $40 each from a parts store. you can replace them yourself very easily. If you use OEM parts, then just back off the locknut on it so you can turn the joint off. remove it, install the new one, and you should be close enough on alignment.
If you use an aftermarket one, pay VERY close attention to the overall length on the new one compared to the old one. I picked up some MOOG ones for the wife's alty a few months ago and they were about 1/8" different in overall length. no problems on fittment, bit it throws the alignment off about 3/4" by the time you multiply that by both sides of the car and the geometry of the suspension...

Soooo, after you replace them, drive the car straight to the alignment shop... but yeah, it's an easy DIY job. takes about 15 minutes per side.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Sweet. I searched google and found some stuff on the Ford Taurus SHO having its tie-rod ends go bad... they said it was fairly simple, removing a crown nut on the knuckle, pulling the joint out, loosening the tie rod locknut, counting the number of times you have to twist the rod end until it comes off, then reinstalling with that in mind...
I'd imagine the Maxima's isn't that much different...

P.S. is there any value in going with aftermarket tie-rod ends? (more durable or long-lasting...?)

DAVEB

iTrader: (133)

$34 each at this dealer! Also, our "mystery bushing" is on back-order- I'll keep you posted!

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Just ordered one from DAVEB probably a half hour ago or so
Even if that's not it, it'll be good to have as the Max gains in miles... (already above 76K now)

Might get around to jacking up the car and checking tonight.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

hmmm... Just jacked up the car to inspect it
I don't have a 2nd person too handy to do the steering wheel bit, but I tried turning it with my own hands (driver window down, door closed) and watching the tie rod end against the knuckle... it seems to move together. Is there something I can do with pulling the tie rod end off and wiggling it?

Also, FYI... moving the steering wheel with the front wheels up, I can hear a "clunk" when I move it back and forth, but it sounds like it's coming from further inside the steering rack I think (or maybe the right side, but I don't have the wheel off nor a 2nd helper so I can't verify if that's it...)
But I've always experienced this, so I'm not sure if that's a problem.

----------

welll, it doesn't sound like much of a "clunk"... more like a slight "tap". I think that's normal... there is no noticeable play in the steering when I move the steering wheel back and forth, at least none I can see by observing the tie rod...

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Alright, so I really can't find any play in the tie rod outer ends, at least from the methods I have at my disposal. I tried checking the passenger side by moving the wheel side to side, even as far as causing the whole steering rack to move with it... I did the same with the driver side, pushing and pulling on the caliper so that the knuckle turned with it. I didn't notice or hear any play in the tie rod end.

I can, however, vouch for the fact that the front driver's wheel (the only one I've taken off, and is the one that had the loose lugnuts yesterday) HAS NO BALANCING WEIGHTS on it.

I think this is the one that I noticed had no weights on it. So maybe it is an out-of-balance wheel, in which case I'll know after I have my wheels rotated/balanced/aligned this weekend (hopefully). I won't bother with swapping tie rod ends for now... I should receive my new end from DAVEB by Friday but I'll keep it in my stash unless the wheel rebalancing doesn't resolve this.

I inspected the wheel as best I could, rolling it around the garage, inspecting it by eye, etc... no evidence of bending or abnormal shape that I can see. So maybe the lack of balance is it. Could an out-of-balance wheel cause brake judder at higher speeds (I know it can cause shimmy at higher speeds) that becomes more intense with more pressure? I wouldn't be surprised...

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

you'd be surprised what kind of probelms an out of balance wheel can cause... that my be it.. it may still be a tie rod end as well. as I said above, mine appeared to be okay when I was checking it by myself, but when you put the car on the ground and have a helper do the steering part, you're putting a lot more stress on the steering system - closer to what you'll see on the street- and you may see/feel the joint moving.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

True...

OK, new story now. I should just write a whole series Car Wars: Return of the Judder.

1. After inspecting the tie rods/etc with the wheel off, I put the wheel back on, tightened it by hand, dropped the car, tightened it with a breaker bar and socket (to ~amt of torque I did yesterday)

2. Drove it around the neighborhood a little. Back in the garage, I tightened them down again, which they were still tight.



3. ~1 hour later. Take it out on the road for a little road test. PA-216 through Codorus State Park, which is a VERY smooth, probably recently paved road. Up to 50MPH, not too much judder or vibration.

4. Take it up to ~60 or so, do a hard brake. Not much judder.

5. Take it up to 75MPH, I started to notice a little extra shimmy while cruising. I hit the brakes HARD. Judders all the way to a near-stop.

6. Continued braking at 60, 40, 30 MPH all produce some judder.



7. Exiting Codorus State Park, still on PA-216. The road looks a little older here... not as silky smooth. It's been ~3 miles since I last braked. I brake at 50MPH, not much judder, brakes are TIGHT (the Metal Masters become very, very responsive when they're hot...)

8. Speed up to ~50-60, brake HARD... no judder.

9. Continue through a 4-way intersection, still on PA-216. Going downhill towards a road junction (to turn around) I brake HARD... no judder. Brakes are so damn tight I can almost feel the rear end trying to kick out (had to stabilize it with the steering wheel). Did I mention that I love those Metal Masters?

10. Turn around, start accelerating uphill.

11. I immediately notice a periodic, keyed to the wheel speed, faint "slapping" noise coming from the front driver's side area. WTF? No place to pull over, so I keep going. It stops when I lay off the accelerator, and starts when I get back on it. I also notice it gets a little louder as I speed up.

12. Accelerate to 70MPH, still on the rougher, older pavement of PA-216 (outside Codorus). Brake HARD. No judder, just relentless, solid braking.

13. Enter Codorus State Park on PA-216. Accelerate to 70MPH, brake HARD... notice some judder. Accelerate to 50, brake lightly... a little judder, not TOO bad though.

14. Accelerate to 70MPH again, brake HARD... notice significant judder. Accelerate to 50, brake moderately... I notice more judder.

15. By this time the car's starting to show a little more shimmy even while cruising along. A little more noise too. Along with that "slapping" noise, I'm starting to fear that my lugnuts are coming loose or something.

16. Exit Codorus, but still on fairly new pavement. Still experience light judder while braking to turn onto another road (en route home).

17. Pull into the garage, pull off the plastic wheel cap, check lugnut torque. Lugnuts are still on as tight as they were before I left.

Also of note, earlier I heard some mild squealing while going through the neighborhood. It seemed to happen when I turned the steering wheel, and sometimes while moving slowly. Pads possibly dragging on the rotors?
----
EDIT: also note that between "HARD" brakes, I did have at LEAST 1 mile of cooldown time (cruising along ~40-60MPH)

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

OK, grand update.

1. Both left-side wheels are bent. Left rear is bent more than the left front... the left front is almost OK. (F*CK DC!!!)

2. About 2-3 of the 4 wheels were out of balance by 0.25 ounces, not a lot but after he put the weights on, I noticed the car seemed smoother at 70+MPH driving

3. I bought 4 replica wheels off eBay, which I received earlier this week. Unfortunately since I'll be in Ocean City this weekend, it'll be the week after 'till I get 'em swapped These cost ~$447 shipped for all 4 wheels. You'll see them on eBay if you search for "maxima wheels" (PS, thanks Igor911 for informing me that these are out... I swear to god I didn't see them 6 months ago when I was looking for them)

4. "Warpage" is much less now, but it's still there, even at higher speeds... I am pondering buying a new set of rotors from iRotors just in case, since I'd imagine by now I've cementite'ed my OEM 2k4 rotors. (and on the left rotor I see a ring of bluish-black surface...)

5. I found a mechanic almost right next to my house who is really good, so I am definitely taking my car to him for any issues I have. This is the kind of dude you stand around and shoot the sh*t with while he's doing the work... not the kind of shop where you quietly sit in their waiting room and wait for their dumb@$$ teenage dropouts to cross-thread your lugnuts with an impact wrench. As a side note, I found out that Pennsylvania emissions inspections require special equipment that each shop has to buy... along with a dedicated phone line to Harrisburg's PennDOT central office. So all emissions records (OBD-II, not sure if they have an exhaust gas analyzer too) are recorded by PENNDOT to avoid cheating.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

I feel for you...I bent an OEM rim last winter too....

BTW, picked up the car from the dealer (warranty service on clutch master cylinder, but that's another story...)...I asked the service manager if he gets alot of 5th gens with warped rotors. He replied, "Yeah, all of them". I thne showed him the blehmco kit...he said "even the 6th gen rotors are warping now, since they added so much weight to the 6th gen, but not very many so far".....

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Bad CV joint?

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

No broken boot, so if it's bad... there's no easy way to tell.
I do have a spare (brand-new from DAVEB) outer tie rod end in case I wanna try going that route. For now I'm going to buy new rotors and get these wheels replaced (then maybe take 1 or both of the bent wheels to Ye Olde Wheel Shop and see what they can do... it'd be nice to keep up my spare supply)

UMD_MaxSE

iTrader: (1)

$95 to fix a bent wheel at Ye Ole Wheel Shop...

I was there getting my tires mounted a few weeks back...

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

I'll probably do it... these new wheels from eBay cost ~$447 shipped, so $95 would be cheaper per wheel than buying another set (if I bent 3 more wheels down the road)

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

Got the 2 driver-side wheels swapped this morning. Impressions:

1. Warpage feels smoother and more consistent... rather than a jarring vibration at high speed, it feels like your typical warpage. Not *too* bad, but I should turn the rotors soon to take things back to square 1.
2. Car drives smoother with the new wheels too.
3. According to the mechanic, those wheels were likely manufactured by the same company as the original OEMs (based on one of the marks on the rim... the new ones off eBay have identical markings, except the ebay wheels have a couple extra markings that seem to reference mass or something).
That's $80/wheel (+$30/wheel shipping per this vendor). Considering Nissan sells these suckers for $400-600/wheel, and they're made by the same manufacturer... holy $h1t. That is some SICK profit margin.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

yep, that's what I got too, a OEM wheel knock off...same markings, same weight (I checked) and looks identical...

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

hmmm. OK, well...

With the new wheels, still the old warped rotors (haven't turned them yet), I still feel a slight "shimmy" at higher speeds while NOT braking (50+ MPH) on smooth roads. It's more of an "out-of-balance" feeling, and on most surfaces it's VERY slight. I seriously doubt I've bent any wheels in the past few weeks, especially considering I haven't gone over any nasty potholes, and have been running my tire pressures a little higher (40psi vs. 32 all around)

I just swapped the driver-side outer tie rod end this evening and took it for a spin. Still felt the "shimmy". I haven't had an alignment for a good 3 months, so I am probably due for one. I'll have that done, see how it is, and if it's still there, take it back to my mechanic and have him verify the balancing of those 2 new wheels...
If it's still there after all that work, I'll probably take it to a shop and put it in their hands. I don't have a run-out gauge so I can't check if the spindle is warped, etc.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

update-

Had an alignment done tonight. It got rid of a lot of the instability and major shimmy that I noticed after replacing the outer tie rod end this past Sunday. Feels much better... but, there's still a little shimmy at 50+ MPH speeds while driving along.

Rotated the tires about an hour after I got home. Took it out for a spin around Codorus state park, where the road is smooth... at first I thought it was smoother, but after a while I noticed the shimmy again, especially ~60MPH. It's not TOO bad, but it's annoying and it won't go away until you enter some rougher road, where I don't seem to notice it anymore.

Rotating the tires presumably has ruled out a minor balancing issue, and likely rules out the possibility of a damaged tire, since it feels the same after rotating as it did before.

One possibility I thought of was the brakes dragging on the rotors, which since they're a little out of surface, might produce such symptoms... I'd have to swap rotors/ideally pads too to test that theory. Not too keen on that at the moment, although I am pondering buying a 2nd set of rotors to make resurfacing easier (just swap rotors, then have the others resurfaced and stored as spares)