MAX2000JP

I don't know if I can still get them at that price, but the brackets would definetly be beefy. I value safety over weight savings.

They have a 97 Reynard Champ car that came with extra brembo calipers. You guys should see how huge these things are plus they weigh next to nothing.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Use a hub ring. No need for longer studs. Just the holes on the Cobra rotors are bigger than the holes for the oem nissan rotors. Not a biggie as the Nissan stud holes are not an exact fit either.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I guess. I'm not 100% on that.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Not bad...I'm going to see what Larry comes up with, otherwise I'll just ship my 1-piece to you.

Larrio

iTrader: (10)

Stillen's markup is not quite as much as you might think. The reason their prices went down is because they stopped using $40 AP rotors. So the only thing left from AP is the calipers. And what do you mean "can get the same calipers AP uses?" AP makes the calipers.Your friend must be getting a hell of a deal, considering that the 6 piston calipers in our kit cost $750 each if you buy just one pair from directly imported from England, not through Stillen. So it's hard to put together a nice kit like that for less than $2,000, and you still don't have rotor hats or brackets. Good luck designing proper radial mount caliper brackets, and the hats won't be easy either.
If you're not going to use quality rotors, then what's the point of using good calipers? Might as well just put some StopTech or Wilwood parts on there.

MAX2000JP

Brain fart, I meant the same calipers Stillen uses, which are AP's. I won't have a problem developing brackets nor hats, since I will just have my friends mechanic do it. Working on Maxima brakes is a cake walk when you build cars from the ground up using tube frames. They have built many custom brake kits for the cars they build. I am not going to sell these, instead I was planning on doing this with Nealoc187 so he has brakes for the track.

Driven EF9

really? where?

Actually, reviewing the brake testing, it's using a G-Tech to determine braking distances... not the best method (since it will base it on G-forces created vs. actual distance)... but it's 100x better for measurement and testing than Jeff's "feels better".

Also, the brake bias post is a great post for those who want to learn more about proper bias. Although Jeff can't provide piston diameters or any real data on his brakes (outside of what they are, and the rotor size)... it's rather useless.


Larrio, sorry, I won't be at buttonwillow with my Maxima...bringing this:


if you guys want to come to Vegas... I'd consider running the maxima. But, i'm not going out of state to race my Maxima...that's why I have the CRX...

Larrio

iTrader: (10)

I'm gonna take a 3200 lb maxima with bolts on vs. an all motor 21xx lb crx with driver? We are currently stripping down a 4th gen all motor with AP's for the track, that may be more of a competitor

I'll see if there are any NASA events in vegas that i'd consider

Larrio

iTrader: (10)

Kam- Do you have any links to road racing events in Vegas? I'd be interested, and could probably get some of the guys to go. My associate has a vacation place in The Lakes, so we could probably do a weekend event. We have NASA memberships, but have yet to apply for racing licenses.

MAX2000JP- Doesn't matter whether it's a maxima or a Ferrari, designing a good brake system isn't a cake walk. It may be easy to work on, but redesigning it is a whole different story, and quite a departure from building tube frames. Good luck to you though, but I'd be surprised if someone can get AP calipers and rotors for much less than they usually go for.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

LOL I have listed the Z32 piston dia before. As did Matt in his links. What Matt states in his thread is similar to what I run. As he also uses 300z calipers in his kit.

MAX2000JP

When you have 25+ years building road race cars, hot rods, and show cars it's not difficult. It would personally take me a while to get it to work, since I don't have that type of experience and it would be trial and error. I will have to check and see how much I can get AP calipers for, but I do know that it will cost quite a bit less than what Stillen their kit for.

Driven EF9

and the rears?

Jeff has left a plethora of unanswered questions... when will he managed to BS his way thru them all?

what about my question regarding the difference between a 800hp Supra stopping from 80mph vs a 320hp Supra?

What about the 2' difference in best braking distances with the 350z you posted?

What about those 320hp maximas with bbks? you haven't listed any...

What about the fluid capacity of your calipers?

Although not you, someone claimed a 15 car length difference... that's roughly 225'...still haven't figured that one out...

Oh, the comment about how MOST MAKERS make MULTIPISTON calipers (pss, the S2K has floating sliding calipers, as does the NSX!)...?


um... i hope that grin means that you're kidding about taking a 3400lb (with driver) Maxima over my 2100lb CRX (w/ driver), in terms of a race.

3400lbs / 222bhp = 15.315lbs per hp (00-01)
3400lbs / 195whp (est.) = 17.435lbs per wheel hp
3400lbs / 255bhp = 13.333lbs per hp (02-03)
3400lbs / 210whp (est.) = 16.190lbs per wheel hp
2100lbs / 180bhp (est.) = 11.666lbs per hp
2100lbs / 158whp = 13.29lbs per wheel hp
although my torque is roughly 16.935lbs per torque lb...which i'm hoping the Maxima has a better ratio.

I guess if you want to go slower around a race track, you'd pick the maxima...

NASA has ceased their Nevada region. However, redlinetrackevents.com will run there, as well as racerfactory.com, and PCA.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

The rears are stock. Regardless of how many 320hp have or have not bbk, they should have. Actually I'm working with a member that has over 320hp right now.

I'm not the one that ran an overly front biased bbk and wondered why it didn't work. You seem to avoid that one pretty good. It's comical you ask about the rears but never addressed your own.

Your questions you want answered wouldn't prove my or your points but I guess that steers you away from the rear issues that are questioned here.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Here is the basic info on the rears. If you think Matt's info is bs, so be it.

My 3-gen has a cylinder bore dia of 33.96mm

Now, let's look at some hard numbers on a Maxima. (5th gen, since that's the one I've built the kit on).
The factory dual proportioning valve creates a pressure bias of 1067:770 approximately- which comes out to 71.9% front bias- and that's just the hydraulic pressure on the lines.

Now, look at the caliper piston sizes and rotor size.
the 2000 Maxima has 11" rotors up front. diameter is 5.5" the pads are roughly 2" tall, so the center of the force is in the middle of that- 1" from the edge of the rotor.
that gives a torque arm length of 4.5"
the factory caliper piston diameter is 2.25", which gives you an area of 3.976in^2.
Let's just assume that all brake pads have a friction coefficient of 0.50u (a good number for race pads, but usually around 0.35u for street pads. 0.5u is good estimate though, since we're keeping the front and rear the same.)

Now for the rear numbers:
rotor dia: 10.94"
pad height: 1.75"
piston dia: 1.337"
piston area: 1.404in^2


Soooo, what that means is that if you put 1500psi of pressure into the FRONT brake system, it's going to produce
1500lb/in^2 * 3.976in^2 * 4.5in * 1ft/12in * 0.5u = 1118ft-lb of braking torque.

for the rears, that number comes to 290ft.lb.
that gives you a STOCK front/rear bias of 79% front.

That gives you a good ballpark to shoot for when building a brake kit to match the car.

Now we can start doing some numbers on aftermarket bias calculations..
using the 12.6" 2004 rotor and factory caliper up front, stock rear brakes, you wind up with 84% front. not too far off the previous numbers- only 5%.

Let's throw a big 4 piston Wilwood Forged Superlite caliper in there using 13" rotors:
Depending on the piston size in the Wilwood calipers (they offer them in 1.12”, 1.25”, 1.38”, and 1.75”) the brake bias can go anywhere from 82% front to 92% front- So it obviously depends on which piston size the designers choose.

Now we can look at my 300ZX kit.. using the front kit only, the bias goes to 87% front..
BUT, when you throw in the rear kit I’m developing (shooting for completion within a month), the bias goes to 76% front.. Just a hair more rear bias than the factory bias- which is generally set intentionally forward to prevent the back end from coming around too easy during trail braking maneuvers. Given that the people buying this kit are going to be track junkies- they’re going to want a hair more rear bias in order to help get the car to rotate at Auto X and on the track..

Now what have you done on your rears again with your bbk??? Oh that's right. You tested, hated it and went back to stock. When you should have addressed the rear bias.

Here is the rest of your questions:

You seem to bs your way though well also

What about it? That's been addressed. But you choose to ingore the explaination. Look back at my replies. But if you think an 800hp Supra is fine with stock brakes so be it. I don't.

What about it? What about it? What about the maxima owner getting his times down from the bbk? Which to ignore? Your version of best is funny. As the best difference was more like 5'. You may take a look at the test again if you wish.

Not that proves anything but Kev(former owner of this site ran a bbk). That one slipped right by ya huh? Jay25 is running a bbk. mtcooksen has bought the front and rear bbk kit. But I don't know if he's up to 320hp yet Actually alot more na maximas are running bbk than boosted ones. I guess the na guys are smarter? Who knows? I dont keep track of the 20+ sets of bbk brackets I've sold. I don't know who is running all the sets Matt has sold his sets too. Not to metion the people running Willwoods, Stoptech or AP like all the Tp Element guys are running. What point does it prove? Nothing.

I run the stock master cylinder. Felt no need to gain more force though a bigger bore MC. Or did you mean the temp cap of the fluid?

Who did that?? It was more like 15-20ft. But I'll let you continue to try to figure it out. My common sense dismissed it already.

I never said fixed or floating? You did. I said multipiston. I also never set a price limit. The Acura TL comes with a multipiston caliper. As does many Porsches, BMWs, Mercedes etc.....Hmm even the old Q45 had a 2 piston caliper. Well technically, the 3-gen in Europe came with a 2 piston caliper. Need me to continue?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I saw you reading this. I guess you declined to answer.

Driven EF9

yet, you completely missed where I mentioned I had no issues with braking performance... here, let me refresh your memory:
there goes that reading and comprehension thing again... allow me to present your more information, proving you wrong:
Jeff, this is fun... i hope you post more things where I've answered or spoken to and you twist it around.

cylinder bore dia of what? the Z32 calipers or the rear calipers?
Jeff, let's say this together:
YOUR SETUP...
Front Caliper Piston Diameter =
Rear Caliper Piston Diameter =
Front Caliper Fluid Capacity =
Rear Caliper Fluid Capacity =
Front Pad size =
Rear Pad size =
Master Cylinder size =

since you are trying to convince us you built this perfected braking system... you should have all of the above details... considering that's what it takes to truly create a perfect braking system.

nice... you avoided the question again. What's the difference in a 800hp Supra and a 320hp Supra braking from 80mph? Let's see if you can get it in the third try.

[quote=What about it? What about it? What about the maxima owner getting his times down from the bbk? Which to ignore? Your version of best is funny. As the best difference was more like 5'. You may take a look at the test again if you wish. [/quote]

Best of 2'

Best of 3', with lower ambient temp...but, wait, there's MORE!

so, stock Track Edition 350z w/ stock brakes goes a best of 114.32'.
a MODIFIED Track Edition 350z w/ stoptech brakes goes a best of 111' with stickier tyres.

Great test. by the way, a modifying the suspension helps balance the car out, allowing the car to achieve a better brake balance. Ever seen a stock car autocrossed and lock up the rear tyres under braking cause of brake dive?

wait, you SELL stuff you don't even have any testing to back it's value... and to top it off you don't track who you're selling them too?

Bad business practice... but, hey, if people keeping giving you money, who am I to complain... people buy tornados and headlamp eyelids.

but, you still haven't shown me 320hp+ maximas and BBKs. but, least you name dropped without any data backing it (common practice you have, eh?)

Let me get this straight. You sell brake brackets. You bolt on larger capacity calipers and bigger diameter pistons for brakes... and you don't see the need for a bigger MC? you are special... you should sell power generators with 20 gauge wires. But, i meant the capacity the calipers will house. bigger calipers = more fluid.
More fluid requires a bigger MC to push such fluid.

So, by your logic, the Acura TL is a better vehicle than a NSX.. cause the NSX has single piston calipers...and we know single sliding piston calipers are the devil, right?

And you said Most Makers... true.. I can't argue that Most Makers have a multi-piston caliper design bolted to one or two vehicles in their line-up, especially on higher end cars. Still doesn't back your position...some (few) $35K+ cars have multi-piston fixed calipers.

MAX2000JP

If I was to keep my Maxima, I would probably be looking at upgrading the brakes. My current rotors need to be replaced because they have been machined too many times. If I was to buy rotors, I might as well buy 12.6" Maxima rotors and pop for some Aluminum 300ZX calipers. I could make my own brackets, so it wouldn't cost much. Oh yea, I would have keep all my suspension mods for the track.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Ah yes. You would have found even better performance if the front rear bias was correct. So nice try at defering the question and avoiding the answer.


there goes that reading and comprehension thing again... allow me to present your more information, proving you wrong:

Cute. What did you do about your bias again? I do believe the was the direct question

Since you already done this, I'll let you go first. Don't forget to explain how you addressed the bias.

Nope. Never said it was perfect. Maybe you can quote me where I said that. But then again, are you saying that if I did provide the info, the system is perfect?? Is that your question? Why keep asking more questions? Because I answered the other one???

I gave you the rear piston size???? So what of it??? You gonna comment on it or are you just asking to see if I have the info???

Um common sense says they will stop the same. What does it prove? Nothing? What does it say about what brakes they SHOULD be running?? EVERYTHING. But why keep repeating my point? You think 800ph cars should be only equipped to stop from 80mph. Can't argue that logic right?

I saw 6 ft.

I saw a test. Didn't you? I don't track. I thought this disussion was about the street?

They give me $ for my brackets, they give Matt $ for his kits, the 300z guys give Ash $ for his cobra kit brackets, people give $ for Willwoods, AP, Brembos etc...........

I didn't. You must have???

WTF? I guess you can't read. What part of the 4+ members did you choose to ignore???? Look up the names?? Or do you think Y2Kev was lying about what he had. You asked for names and you got them. Don't believe me? Then look up the names yourself.

Yes, bigger FRONT calipers is supposed to cause more pedal travel. I have experienced a minimal amount of that. As all other members using this kit have experienced. I guess you again didn't read that member's test post

Sorry that is my logic. Never said or implied that. The only think I stated that the TL stopped in 114ft. A family car that's DESIGNED for a getting the kids to school. A car that by YOUR logic has no business having brakes that good. BTW. Here's a clue. I never said anything about sliding or fixed. So I'll let you keep that argument to youself. And in reality, if the maxima could stop in 114ft with oem parts, I wouldn't be complaining. I wouldn't care if it had 1 or 10 pistons.

How DOESN'T back my position. I just mentioned a whole bunch of cars that had multipiston calipers. FIXED??? FLOATING??? That again?? Maybe you should ask the person that originally mentioned fixed/floating?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I'd take a look at Matt's kit or run my parts. About the only way to run the 2k4 rotors is to copy Matt's brackets. It would probably take your guys more $ in just the labor than just to buy Matt's kit. He can give you a deal on the lines etc.. also.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

Jeff I believe that officially is the record for the MOST individually-quoted responses in a single post (12)....this thread is setting all kinds of records:

-longest thread where only about 3 people are really participating - 298 posts so far (take out mine and a few others, and you guys are averaging almost 100 posts EACH in this thread alone)

-thread that repeats the same points and questions the most times using paraphrasing

-most convoluted thread, ever, regarding brakes, where no clear, definitive answer has been reached on anything..

Ok guys, ditch the whole ****-talking back and forth, none of you is going to convince any of the others, and none of you is going to admit that you are wrong....and....

answer, in ONE word (yes or no) the original question:
the question is "DIFFERENCE relative to COST"

For the sake of simplicity.....When he says "big brake kit" let's assume he is referring to an easy, bolt-on kit (not getting parts from 4 different places and integrating them). So this rules out the BlehmCo setup, cobra rotors, 6th gen rotors/calipers, etc etc and sticks with the so-called "big name" BBKs......

I'm sorry to play "mediator" here, but this is an interesting discussion and subject to me, and while I can more or less follow the discussion here, I'm betting a majority of .org'ers are completely lost on a subject that is IMPORTANT to all of them, whether they know it or not....

[IMG]For those of you that have a Big Brake kit or those of you who know, does it really make that big of a difference relative to the money it costs?
I am wondering if it is that neccessary, I understand that for stricly track cars it is, but for track/street cars is what I am looking at.[/IMG]

Larrio

iTrader: (10)

Did you miss the "um" and "?" at the end? = you've got to be kidding me.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

or to get the 6th gen calipers, which bolt directly up to our hub splines in our stock caliper mounting positions, of course....

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

You know, that is really what he should do. Given his stance on the subject. That combo would be perfect. Especially if he uses VeeQue's advice and gets them used. (as you did?)

MAX2000JP

See Sig I ordered a 2005 Mustang GT, so I am selling my Maxima. I could/can fab up templates using plywood and then have them made for free. Neal did the same thing a while back when he made his own BBK using Cobra rotors. Plus, I would get the satisfaction out of doing it myself.

MAX2000JP

How many pistons do the 6th gen calipers have?

dizmax96

iTrader: (2)

single piston.. just rilly big.. ill take some pics and post them up tomorrow..

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

Dave Burnette!

hint: the 2005 Maxima calipers, for some reason, are much much cheaper than the 2004 Maxima calipers........don't ask why.......

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

hah! I beat you to it



dizmax, have you installed th 6th gen kit yet?

MAX2000JP

They are only a single piston design, I am suprised. I was expecting a twin piston caliper at least. The 300ZX calipers are the way to go IMO. 4 pistons, cheap, and readily available at your local parts store.

Larrio

iTrader: (10)

Probably because they're made in Mexico instead of Japan. '05 engines are cheaper too.

Epacy

iTrader: (6)

Well, I am not sure if this thread has answered my question. But I do see it has sparked a solid debate.

dizmax96

iTrader: (2)

i got my 05 calipers for 62 and come change.. each.. them rotors are freakin HUGE!!! no joke.. 12.6 inch.. its like.. dayam.. big..

Larrio

iTrader: (10)

Huge? No. Big? Almost.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Can one of you weigh an '04 rotor and measure the '04 caliper piston diameter?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

IMHO, a good combo that probably wouldn't upset the frt/rear bias TOO much.

Driven EF9

to avoid discussing further "opinions"... one thing I still can't understand how you can argue the facts

You provided me this link...

and you see 6 feet shorter stopping distance from 60mph? Where? Between Best and Average?!?!?


Tell me where you see a 6 foot difference in stopping distances from any 60mph stop?


The other problem is, the data displayed in this table isn't consistent. Performance Model and a Track Model are two different cars.
The stoptech 332mm column doesn't indicate what car was used (Performance or Track).
The stoptech 355mm column indicates a car with DIFFERENT tyres and modified suspension...not a viable basis for comparison.

Bottom line, Jeff... where do you see a six foot difference.



All the other items I've asked, you'll just ignore and/or side-step. I would too if i had no facts to back up my claims. fortunately, I've tested my setups, got data, and know what the issues are (whether it be ****-poor caliper design, improper bias, or lack of traction).

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I answer everyone of your questions. Actually I've provided more tech about the equipment than you have. So what's the deal?

Funny. Of course you tested your setups. You've said that 10x already. Did I EVER dispute that? So why not get off that high horse and let it die for god's sake.

I said and I quote "you got worse results because you didn't address the rear bias"

**** poor caliper design eh?? They seem to have served the OEM Nissan 300zs for many, many years. You mean **** poor REAR DRUM BRAKES?

dizmax96

iTrader: (2)

IceY 04/05 rotor : 21lbs 7.5oz
piston diameter in: 47.5mm
out: 56.5mm

12.6 inch is pretty big compared to the TL's 12.2

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Thanks~!

Galo

Jeff, Alex...I have stayed loosely connected and kinda quiet here but on the subject of overall brake bias, etc...one thing no one mentioned is that you can affect the actual front/rear bias via the use of varying pad compounds.

If -for instance- you select a pad compound for your BBK that has its highest CoF at relatively high temps, you can in effect move the brake bias rearward, as the pads in the rear brakes come up to their temp faster than those in the BBK.

For repeated road-racing/track use, you will still have the effect of being perhaps a bit over on front brake bias because in those situations the front brakes will indeed come up to optimum pad temps, but for street use, the use of pads designed for maximum CoF at higher temps versus the stock rear pads will somewhat offset the greater front brake bias from the BBK....

PS: added via Edit: I had to replace my rear brake pads at 26k miles so......I definitely have good bias front to rear even with my four-piston Wilwoods and 12.90" two-piece rotors