How much better are coilovers than springs/shocks?
05-03-2005, 01:52 PM
#2
everyones probly gonna yell at u to search, but i wnet from maxspeeds on stock struts to jics, and it was a world of different, if ur looking for a better handleing harsher ride go coilovers, but if u want smoothness stay with what u got, imo.
05-03-2005, 03:15 PM
#3
wow, u would really say coilovers are a harsher ride than aftermarket spring/shock setups? i always thought they were smoother riding, better or same handle, and the choice of adjusting height...looked at these 3 as the benefits but if ride quality is worst than i definitely wouldnt invest in coils...i would never change the height of the car anyway....can someoen else confirm that harsher ride opionion...?
05-03-2005, 03:28 PM
#4
to me they are smoooooth as butter....i ain't even gonna lie....my 9/7 D2 coilovers are absolutely silky smooth even with my low pro tires and slammed over 3.5 inches from stock....
the only drawback is...if you live in a rough area....yes they will be harsher than stock...but if u live in a smooth area...the coilovers will ride WAAAY smoother than any spring/strut combo....
just think of it this way...with coilovers....i tend to "feel" more of the road....so if the road i travel on is smooth (freeway)....then i can feel the smooth pavement more thus giving me a smoother ride....
the only drawback is...if you live in a rough area....yes they will be harsher than stock...but if u live in a smooth area...the coilovers will ride WAAAY smoother than any spring/strut combo....
just think of it this way...with coilovers....i tend to "feel" more of the road....so if the road i travel on is smooth (freeway)....then i can feel the smooth pavement more thus giving me a smoother ride....
05-03-2005, 03:34 PM
#6
I think someone that knows the technical differences should chime in.
There are alot of things not mentioned:
a) Spring rates inbetween the two
b) The mounting diff inbetween the two
c) Shock valving inbetween the two
Without that type of info, it's hard to make general comments on each
There are alot of things not mentioned:
a) Spring rates inbetween the two
b) The mounting diff inbetween the two
c) Shock valving inbetween the two
Without that type of info, it's hard to make general comments on each
05-04-2005, 01:16 AM
#8
it depends.
when you start running springs that have excessive drops on the maxima (i.e. sprint and tein s-techs) you lose a considerable amount of suspension travel. This is because the spring is sacrificing travel for the amount of drop. My old sprint/agx combo had the coils completely smashed together when the car was lowered down. It had a tendency to bottom out on bad roads and potholes whereas the coilovers just have a hard shock.
so depending on the spring rate, certain springs may feel better or worse but that varies with the type of road traveled in combination with spring travel and settings. Given that lowering springs have lower spring rates than coilovers, it has a overall good feeling.
now with coilovers, assuming they are adjustable, you can drop the car without sacrificing suspension travel. Which any maxima owner would know helps when that rear beam is going over speed bumps, going out of driveways, or driving on the highway. Although given the higher spring rates and dampening settings rough imperfections will be felt more than conventional spring/shocks.
so to answer your question, any coilovers IMO (non pillow ball or not) is better than spring/shock combo because it will handle better and keep suspension travel with the adjustability in spring rates and dampening that can be everyday driven
when you start running springs that have excessive drops on the maxima (i.e. sprint and tein s-techs) you lose a considerable amount of suspension travel. This is because the spring is sacrificing travel for the amount of drop. My old sprint/agx combo had the coils completely smashed together when the car was lowered down. It had a tendency to bottom out on bad roads and potholes whereas the coilovers just have a hard shock.
so depending on the spring rate, certain springs may feel better or worse but that varies with the type of road traveled in combination with spring travel and settings. Given that lowering springs have lower spring rates than coilovers, it has a overall good feeling.
now with coilovers, assuming they are adjustable, you can drop the car without sacrificing suspension travel. Which any maxima owner would know helps when that rear beam is going over speed bumps, going out of driveways, or driving on the highway. Although given the higher spring rates and dampening settings rough imperfections will be felt more than conventional spring/shocks.
so to answer your question, any coilovers IMO (non pillow ball or not) is better than spring/shock combo because it will handle better and keep suspension travel with the adjustability in spring rates and dampening that can be everyday driven
05-04-2005, 11:51 AM
#11
would coilovers be more of a bouncy ride i have been thinking about getting progress springs with illuminas but now that i read this thread i am having second thoughts... someone help me out here...
05-04-2005, 01:24 PM
#14
hmmm, in places like New Jersey and New York where roads are as sh*tty as gas station bathrooms, it sounds like a spring/strut combo is better.
I hear Eibach's ride real nice and arent a crazy serious drop. I dont need tire tucking drop, just something that will improve looks right now. Also Illumina's are supposed to be the best shocks to get.
What do u guys consider the most even drop? Eibach's? Progress? I dont want more than a 1.5" drop so Teins and Springs r out of the question....
I hear Eibach's ride real nice and arent a crazy serious drop. I dont need tire tucking drop, just something that will improve looks right now. Also Illumina's are supposed to be the best shocks to get.
What do u guys consider the most even drop? Eibach's? Progress? I dont want more than a 1.5" drop so Teins and Springs r out of the question....
05-04-2005, 02:14 PM
#15
a mild spring rate and soft dampening on coilovers could also provide a suitable ride. The adjustability of all the settings means that there is no one for certain answer if coilovers better x times better than spring/shocks and vice versa.
the most even drop would be eibachs or progress springs, however one lowers a lot more than the others. Remember that 4th gens have more ridiculous wheel gap stock, so eibachs won't do all that for the overall visual appearance.
the most even drop would be eibachs or progress springs, however one lowers a lot more than the others. Remember that 4th gens have more ridiculous wheel gap stock, so eibachs won't do all that for the overall visual appearance.
05-04-2005, 08:38 PM
#16
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Posts: n/a
Here's some data to help out the people who can answer the question on a scientific level:
KSport spring rate: 9/7 (taken from http://www.ksportusa.com/products/ks...lications.html)
Tein S. Tech spring rate: 3.6/4.8 (taken from http://www.tein.com/ti/p20.html)
So does that mean that, in effect, the KSports are 2.5x more rough in the front and 1.5x more rough in the back? Or does it not work that way?
KSport spring rate: 9/7 (taken from http://www.ksportusa.com/products/ks...lications.html)
Tein S. Tech spring rate: 3.6/4.8 (taken from http://www.tein.com/ti/p20.html)
So does that mean that, in effect, the KSports are 2.5x more rough in the front and 1.5x more rough in the back? Or does it not work that way?
05-04-2005, 08:56 PM
#17
spring rate in this case is how many kg in weight it will take for the spring to be compressed 1mm.
so ksport:
fronts - 9kg = 18.84 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 478 lbs per inch
rears - 7kg = 15.43 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 391.9 lbs per inch
teins
so ksport:
fronts - 9kg = 18.84 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 478 lbs per inch
rears - 7kg = 15.43 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 391.9 lbs per inch
teins
05-04-2005, 09:03 PM
#18
I'm not sure whats with the persistance into the scientific level as there are tons of things into consideration (i.e. tire/wheel size, lowering length, dampening rate, strut type, and camber/caster angles, etc). The best type of opinions are from owners that have tried both. I'd recommend the book "Engineer to Win" on amazon.com. But i'll try anyways here.....spring rate in this case is how many kg in weight it will take for the spring to be compressed 1mm.
so ksport:
fronts - 9kg = 18.84 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 478 lbs per inch
rears - 7kg = 15.43 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 391.9 lbs per inch
teins
fronts - 3.6kg = 7.94 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 201.76 lbs per inch
rears - 4.8kg = 10.58 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 268.7 lbs per inch
so at first glance it will take less weight to compress the tein springs so hence less stiffness. However you'll have to consider the length of the spring itself, if the teins are shorter meaning less travel, then it would take less weight to displace the lateral movement of the shock before the suspension bottoms out and becomes rather harsh because the strut cannot rebound fast enough given the short travel of the spring. What you'll notice with spring/strut combos is that the lowering spring is shorter than the stock spring, but the aftermarket shock/strut is the same size and length as the stock one. So even increasing the dampening cannot offset the apparent lack of suspension travel you will have if using springs that sacrifice suspension travel for lowering height
So in effect, if the coilover is designed properly given the right preloads and adjustments, the strut itself can fully extend within the range of the spring, thereby utilizing full travel which in turn will minimize harsh ride quality even with the extra stiffness in spring displacement
so ksport:
fronts - 9kg = 18.84 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 478 lbs per inch
rears - 7kg = 15.43 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 391.9 lbs per inch
teins
fronts - 3.6kg = 7.94 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 201.76 lbs per inch
rears - 4.8kg = 10.58 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 268.7 lbs per inch
so at first glance it will take less weight to compress the tein springs so hence less stiffness. However you'll have to consider the length of the spring itself, if the teins are shorter meaning less travel, then it would take less weight to displace the lateral movement of the shock before the suspension bottoms out and becomes rather harsh because the strut cannot rebound fast enough given the short travel of the spring. What you'll notice with spring/strut combos is that the lowering spring is shorter than the stock spring, but the aftermarket shock/strut is the same size and length as the stock one. So even increasing the dampening cannot offset the apparent lack of suspension travel you will have if using springs that sacrifice suspension travel for lowering height
So in effect, if the coilover is designed properly given the right preloads and adjustments, the strut itself can fully extend within the range of the spring, thereby utilizing full travel which in turn will minimize harsh ride quality even with the extra stiffness in spring displacement
05-04-2005, 09:56 PM
#20
Originally Posted by Larrio
I'm not sure whats with the persistance into the scientific level as there are tons of things into consideration (i.e. tire/wheel size, lowering length, dampening rate, strut type, and camber/caster angles, etc). The best type of opinions are from owners that have tried both. I'd recommend the book "Engineer to Win" on amazon.com. But i'll try anyways here.....spring rate in this case is how many kg in weight it will take for the spring to be compressed 1mm.
so ksport:
fronts - 9kg = 18.84 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 478 lbs per inch
rears - 7kg = 15.43 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 391.9 lbs per inch
teins
fronts - 3.6kg = 7.94 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 201.76 lbs per inch
rears - 4.8kg = 10.58 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 268.7 lbs per inch
so at first glance it will take less weight to compress the tein springs so hence less stiffness. However you'll have to consider the length of the spring itself, if the teins are shorter meaning less travel, then it would take less weight to displace the lateral movement of the shock before the suspension bottoms out and becomes rather harsh because the strut cannot rebound fast enough given the short travel of the spring. What you'll notice with spring/strut combos is that the lowering spring is shorter than the stock spring, but the aftermarket shock/strut is the same size and length as the stock one. So even increasing the dampening cannot offset the apparent lack of suspension travel you will have if using springs that sacrifice suspension travel for lowering height
So in effect, if the coilover is designed properly given the right preloads and adjustments, the strut itself can fully extend within the range of the spring, thereby utilizing full travel which in turn will minimize harsh ride quality even with the extra stiffness in spring displacement
so ksport:
fronts - 9kg = 18.84 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 478 lbs per inch
rears - 7kg = 15.43 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 391.9 lbs per inch
teins
fronts - 3.6kg = 7.94 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 201.76 lbs per inch
rears - 4.8kg = 10.58 lbs for 1mm of spring travel or 268.7 lbs per inch
so at first glance it will take less weight to compress the tein springs so hence less stiffness. However you'll have to consider the length of the spring itself, if the teins are shorter meaning less travel, then it would take less weight to displace the lateral movement of the shock before the suspension bottoms out and becomes rather harsh because the strut cannot rebound fast enough given the short travel of the spring. What you'll notice with spring/strut combos is that the lowering spring is shorter than the stock spring, but the aftermarket shock/strut is the same size and length as the stock one. So even increasing the dampening cannot offset the apparent lack of suspension travel you will have if using springs that sacrifice suspension travel for lowering height
So in effect, if the coilover is designed properly given the right preloads and adjustments, the strut itself can fully extend within the range of the spring, thereby utilizing full travel which in turn will minimize harsh ride quality even with the extra stiffness in spring displacement
Larrio
05-04-2005, 11:05 PM
#22
Originally Posted by BRAN808
That makes a lot of sense! But how do you know if the strut is designed properly, and won't lose suspension travel???
I may go out on the limb to say that all coilovers if good enough to make it out on the market feature a properly designed travel of the strut. This is from the fact that the adjustability of the spring perches enables the user to always have full strut travel by adjusting the height of the perches in relation to the top hat given the length of the spring.
basically, x more preload = x less strut travel because you'll be compressing the whole spring within the assembly and pushing down the strut
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