Desert Pearl

Dohhhh! Last night on the way home from work, I ran across a Grand Prix GTP Daytona 500 (?)pace car(?). It was sweet looking (from the outside I mean... we all know they are butt-ugly on the inside). It had a nice rear spoiler and other body work as well as all of the Daytona 500 ornamentation. After a few miles of driving we happened to line up side by side at a 4-way stop. We both punched it at the same time... he instantly pulled a car length on me! D@mn, I wish I had 280ft-lbs of torque! While my car is puttering along, he's pulling like a *****! Anyhow, his rate of kickin' my a$$ started decreasing, settling in about 2 car lengths ahead of me. My lane ran into some traffic, so I ducked in just behind him, where we stayed exactly 2 carlengths apart up to about 80mph or so. It seemed that we were pretty even, if we hadn't raced from a dead stop. From a 30mph punch, it would have been very interesting indeed. I pulled up next to him just afterwards and we exchanged some compliments. We then went on our merry way home... with him smiling a bit more than me.

stevepake

GTP's whip Accord V6 butt too - quite easily. With mods we can stay even with them and they won't get away, but those suckers have so much low-end torque that we just never recover from the jump they get on us at launch...

Maximuma

How about getting a manual?, maybe!!

PhatGuy

I wish you had a 5pd! jk...

AzMax

Hey Desert Pearl,
I also live in Arizona and I see this guy on loop 202 all the time. I have a 5-speed SE and I'll see how well I do against him if I ever meet up at a light. Since it says Daytona Pace car, do these cars have any extra mods?

AzMax

Crap, I just saw your mods. Do you think a stock 5-speed has any chance against that GTP?

killrwheels

A stock GTP or Regal GS is going to beat a stock Maxima 5-speed as long as drivers have equal experience with cars. If you mod your Maxima then its only fair to mod the GTP/GS. Without getting into a war, simple statistics dictate that a car length in racing is equal to 100 additional horsepower on equal weighted cars. The Gm's weigh 600 pounds more meaning that it would take an additional 50-65 horsepower to pull on them. Now gears will make a little difference for Maxima with 5sp but the low end torque advantage from the Supercharger null and voids that, ie. immediate boost. I currently own two toys.....I love the Maxima for twisty and looks....but my Regal GS is still the closest thing to the Ram Air T/A it replaced for straight line power. For 300.00 I changed the snout of the huffer and added a smaller spindle creating more power. IT SMOKES THOSE TIRES THE LENGTH OF A FOOTBALL FIELD surprising mod Mustangs and new z-28's. Even the ricers are shocked when I'm gone like NOS >>>>>>>>. I still love the Maxima more......but it needs more power to play in the same arena. Now a TL S-type ???

Desert Pearl

I think a GTP versus a stock 5-spd would be a very interesting race. It would definitely come down to drivers, namely the Maxima one. Alex, aka Ice2K1, has a 5-spd with only a Stillen intake and he ran a 15.5 when we raced and that was with a sucky 60ft time (sorry Alex!). My best time is a 15.6, so based on a trap speed of 88mph, the two lengths this guy had on me means he's running about a 15.4 stock. He admitted to me during our brief discussion that he had a really good launch. So, I'd say you are both in the same ballpark. Give him a run and let us know!

Also, he stated that he had 240hp, so I don't think the Daytona 500 GTPs have any performance add-ons... just looks.

Bean

ummm i hope you made a typo there...
100hp does not equal 1 car length... more like 10 car lengths in a 1/4 mile

but yes the GTPs have one nice thing; a supercharger... which you can swap out pullies and run more boost... plenty of bolt on type GTPs running low 14s

djmaxski

We can supercharge too Then see who wins!!! He he...

killrwheels

ummm i hope you made a typo there...
100hp does not equal 1 car length... more like 10 car lengths in a 1/4 mile

I don't know how much you have raced before but 100 hp is equal to approximately one car length for "equal weighted automobiles". This is why cars run in certain classes with small handicaps (ie. a car length) in 1/4 mile runs. Hey Newbie.....you in West Palm Florida???? Torque, weight, size, NOS, and other items could spread the distance, but the key is same weight.

My 4DSC

I dont know how much YOU have raced...obviously not much...
You are COMPLETELY WRONG/WAY OFF/MISINFORMED/IGNORANT...

Actually 1 car length in the 1/4 mi = 1/10th sec (est)
Therefore, by your reasoning, it would take an additional 1,000 HP to drop 1 second off your 1/4 mi E.T....
So I guess my Supercharger puts me at 1,222HP...WOW!

Somebody's got diarrhea of the mouth.

Desert Pearl

I think here in lies the confusion.

A car length in the quarter mile roughly equals 10hp, which in turn roughly equals 100lbs of weight. Maybe he's thinking weight not HP.

Also the GTP weighs about 200lbs more than our 5th Gens so we should be even if we made 20hp less. The problem is that ours isn't making the power down low like theirs is. Our cars are no where near making 280ft-lbs of torque (with the exception of our SC'ed Max friends).

When I raced this guy it was about 100F outside also. He really would have spanked me if it was down around 60F or so!!!

Bean

no your wrong

a car length in the times you guys are looking at is 1/10th of a second in a quarter mile...
how long have YOU been racing?

you mean to tell me if i took my 300zxTT bone STOCK that should have run like a 14.1 and i then make 400hp and i'm only supposed to run a 14.0?
damn you guys are dumber than i thought...

Bean

i apologize to the others of this board since i obviously found a frucking dumba$$
god that is the DUMBEST post i have EVER seen...

riddle me this Mr KillrWhls...

How come you can take a brand spanking new Z28 off the showroom floor... here are the specs... they make about 305rwhp bone stock off the showroom floor... they will run a 13.2 at 104 or 105...
if i had a 150hp shot of NOS by your theory on that car i should be doing 13.05 at whatever mph... right?

ok here's a fact... bolt on a 150hp shot of NOS on a bone stock Z28 (equal weighted vehicles)
and you WILL run 11.70s... that means i really didn't bolt on 150hp did i? it really put on a 1350hp shot right?

you must be one of the guys that goes strictly by what the magazines tell you in Superstreet... get 40hp+ with this exhaust... then the car runs .04 better in the 1/4... hehe
maybe the honda boy racers with their headlight kits and stickers should head to a dyno sometime and find their cat-back exhausts actually kill their top end power... just like putting an intake on a SI slows it down, etc...

Bean

oh yeah... i finally get to strike back...

DON'T EVER CALL ME A NEWBIE YOU ****ING RICEBOY *****!

Bean

heheh

true true...
but they have the advantage of having it stock while you guys are stuck having to shell out da money for a whole kit
and they can just order a bigger supercharger...

but still the maxima looks better; is built better; and handles WAY better... and boy do i love that VQ motor... i can't wait to see what it does in the new Z... they quote 260hp but thats what you get when you expand a 3.0L 222hp to 3.5L motor hehe... i smell 300hp easy... can't wait for that...THEN we can put a supercharger or turbo on that

killrwheels

Listen I was racing a Ram Air T/A in 1995 while the 5th Generations were on a drawing board in Japan. In the 1/4 mile a car of equal weight and 100 additional ponies ran a full car length in front by the end. Now I will admit that Superchargers, Turbos, and NOS will make a huge difference but that is because they also add TORQUE to the equation. Obviously we all have forgotten this. Natural horsepower in these cars are made via rockers, intake, and exhaust changes along with gearing. You are all correct that in specific instances, like 4dsc, that a Supercharger can create a larger gap, through induction which increases torque. I stand corrected ......and obviously your Maxima would blow the front axles with anything more than 100 extra horsepower from the SC.

Bean.....you used rice, boy, and ***** all in one sentence....looking down again ???? Look to the left you are a newbie !!! No slam....just the facts!!!

Bean

no they won't
i don't care what you saw; that car didn't have 100 more hp... it had maybe 10 to 15 more hp...
superchargers and turbos and NOS make a huge difference because they also add HP...
natural horsepower made by rockers? i don't think OHC-type engines have rockers...
i have MORE proof

check this **** out... take a Z28 again and put a set of heads and a cam on it... guess what... your effective redline increases and you make a broader powerband

stock a Z28 makes about 305rwhp... put heads and cam and exhaust on it and you're touching 400-450rwhp depending on the combo...guess what? they run 11.60s-11.80s all day long... we just added 100rwhp to a car and dropped 1/4 mile by 1.5 seconds... thats close to 15 lengths...

torque isn't everything dude... torque gets you moving off the line and thats about it... it also affects your effective powerband... a broader torque curve will allow MORE horsepower because you can move farther up the line... the RPM line... which is TIME... horsepower is basically torque applied with time
you can make 1,000,000 ft-lbs of torque... but if you're only moving at 10rpms you aren't making much hp at all
and hp is what matters after 60'..

how can i prove this? simple... Take a BMW M5 that makes 400hp stock... i'm not sure about the torque; its in the 350s i'm sure... its a DOHC 5.0L V8
take a 5.0 Mustang... a OHV 5.0L V8... it makes 300ftlbs of torque stock... its torque curve is VERY low in the rpm range... thats why the car is sooo damn fast off the line... it will beat the M5 in a 60' race... but after that horsepower prevails... while the 5.0 will run a 14.8-15.2ish 1/4 mile... the M5 will blast down the track with a 12.7-13.1 time... which is faster? the M5 also WEIGHS a lot more too... why is the 5.0 faster off the line? because it has MORE available torque in the low rpm band... but thats its only advantage... TORQUE GETS YOU OFF THE LINE...

you're one of those torque is everything guys... torque is NOTHING without rpms... thats why trucks are so damn slow... they are geared to haul things; hence a very low torque peak... and a fat torque curve to get stuff movie... simple physics...

motectransam

I think a 5-speed 5th Maxima can keep up with a Grand Prix GTP/Regal GS and especially on a roll. Best quarter-miles I heard on GTP/Regal GS was 14.6@93mph showroom stock with most running 14.8-15.2@90-92mph. As for 5-spd Maximas, 14.8@94mph is the best i've heard with most getting 14.9-15.4@89-93mph. Because the typcial e.t.s are a hair quicker for the GM sedans, the maxima driver has to be really sharp.

1 note, these GM sedans have really loose torque convertors (stalls at 3200rpm) with no wheelhop problems. so given enough surface tack, these cars can launch tremendously well (with 7.5psi full boost at torque convertor stall).

~motectransam
read high performance pontiac (10/97) where my dad's supercharged 3.8L Bonneville ran 14.5@94.1mph 100% stock including tires. even ran within 2 car lengths of an stock automatic '96 Z28 (he got 14.2@98mph) at the track.

Bean

DAMN are you serious? a 3200rpm stall? JEEZUS
for a stock car thats ridiculous...
too bad they're FWD... traction really becomes a problem later on

Desert Pearl

Okay, I can't stand it anymore. I'm jumping on the bashing bandwagon too. I agree with everyone of Bean's posts. This guy you raced clearly didn't have 100hp more than you. If he did, quit comparing your 1/4 mile times and look at your trap speeds. The trap speed pretty much takes out all driver related effects and gives a much truer estimate of your HP. If the guy you raced smoked down his tires or bogged it down bigtime, yeah, he might have only beat you by 1 car length. But at the end of he 1/4 I bet he was passing you by like you were standing still.

Also, you imply that because turbos, superchargers and NOS add both HP and torque, that there are some mods that only add HP, but not torque. This can't be. If you are making more HP, then you are making more torque. Here it goes again:

HP = torque*rpm/5252

This formula also illustrates Beans' comment that torque is nothing without rpm, however his comment that 1,000,000ft-lbs of torque at 10rpm isn't much HP... actually it is still quite a bit... 1904hp. But he was making a point which was correct.

killrwheels

What I have tried to say, and obviously gotten ripped, is that any car that adds approximately 100hp will typically run the 1/4 mile in a car length ahead of its original time. If a stock stick Maxima can run a 15.1 and then goes to a >100hp difference it should run somewhere around a 14.1 which equates to 1 full second difference. It is only one second. You still have two similar cars side by side and one beat the other by a full second, maybe its more than a car length but at one second how many car lengths can a 3500 pound car travel??

I am a old school torque lover, yes Bean. The power that my T/A put to the ground will always far exceed the experience the 5th generation can, but I still love the Maxima also, but for handling and build. I also realize that current day ricers are making extreme hp and rpms.....their torque comes no where near a big block Camaro with similar hp. But both can run quarter miles with similar times.

Look at 30yrs.....the mind fails quicker. If I'm wrong so be it. I apologize.....but I still cannot see a stock 5-speed Maxima with 222 hp standing up to a stock GTP/GS with 245hp and its added extreme torque due to more cubes and forced induction. These guys that say they pulled 2 to 5 car lengths on one in less than a quarter mile seems like talk versus experience. No flames to anyone.....

Desert Pearl

Fair enough. killrwheels seems to agree with us, but really the weight of the car has nothing to do with how far ahead the Max running 14.1 would be. His trap speed should be right around 98-100mph, but the 15.1 Max would be around 91-93mph. So, basically he's jogging away from you. BTW at 92mph, one second is about 9 carlengths.

Bean

Yes but here is the key.

One car length is NOT a full second. I don't care what times you're running at

If you are moving around 7mph or so; then a car length is a fullsecond.

One carlength in the general area of ETs we are describing is one tenth...

Yes you are right 100hp WILL take you down about a full second in ET providing you have the traction to do so.
But that is a lot more than one car length. Things get REALLY crazy once you get down in the sub 10s. One car length becomes almost nothing.
To get a full tenth on someone you need about 2 lengths... its all because of the speed they are moving at...

But this is a fact: one carlength at these typical ET and trap speeds is 1/10th