sciff5

iTrader: (1)

I have now showed 3 shops pics of the Warpspeed SFCs installed on the max and I have brought my I35 with the directions on how to install the Warpspeed SFCs to each shop and all of them have had the same reaction. "They dont seem to tie into anything substantial and they seem pretty hoaky" Basically 3 shops said that they dont really see how these would make a significant difference. A couple guys wanted to cut the floorpan out and put some steel tubing in there and weld the floorplate back in to really stiffen things up. Anyone on here have some real specific info on how the SFCs work (just saying they stiffen the chassis is quite a bit vague and something I already know). I have been on a mission to find a shop to fabricate SFCs for the maxima so that we have an option other than Warpspeed. I dont trust dallas at all.

Hopefully after this work I will find a shop who is able to create something good but I have been getting mixed reviews from everyone. On the boards everyone says the stage 1 (the 2 bars that run the leangth of the car) is what makes the biggest difference in handling and stage 2 is (the cross bracing) makes less of a difference. When today the shop I went to said they dont really see why the Stage 1 bars would be significant but that cross bracing would be much more effective but he said if he was gonna do it he would make the cross bracing much more effective by tying into something more substantial. This guy seems really cool, we shot the **** for a while and he is really into drag racing as well as road racing. He builds roll cages mainly for drag cars but he has also done some street rides and built some road racing cars that see a lot of track time up in NH.

Edward Lee

iTrader: (3)

They might work if you can ever get a set to fit right. I purchased my set from Dallas, both stage 1 and stage 2. Before I installed them I powdercoated them. Well, to start with stage 1 had the tabs on one f the bars welded in the wrong place so I had to cut right throughmy beautiful powdercoated finish and reweld it into the correct place before I could weld them into the car.

Stage 2 didn't even come close to fitting. It's been several years and Dallas from Warpspeed can't or won't fix the problem. He just keeps on saying that he will get bck to me.

I am about to sue Warpspeed and make Dallas come to California to fight the case. By the way, did I notice a difference? Yea maybe a little. Is it worth it to put SFC on our car. I would do it again if I had to. Just try to get someone to custom make a set for you.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

After looking at those pictures I think I have to agree with what those 3 shops told you. Stage two BlehmCo tie bar should help much more than Warpspeed SFC.

k2max_driver

iTrader: (6)

my thought was that with the warpspeed subframe connectors you make the entire car a solid subframe like a corvette. which would eliminate a heck of alot of body roll. I'm thinking of doing that modification to my max but i do not want to go with warpspeed as i have seen there pics and am not impressed with the end result. To me it just looks cheap and not well thought out the brackets alone look like crap.

Jay_Alix

I'm new to Maximas, but have been dealing with Camaros for some time, which also use uni body construction. That first shop you talked to sounds like someone you don't want to deal with( square tubing is NOT ideal for SFCs they should be round tubing), though I have to agree based on pictures I have seen of the warpspeed SFC set up.. the connectors are very poorly designed/constructed from what I can tell, those tabs welded to the tubes are all stress points and would likely develope cracks along the welds. The rest of the bracing is rather pointless as it's got too many bolts holding it all together. All those bolts points will flex which is what you are trying to get rid of.
BMR, Alston, Global West, Spohn, Kenny Brown all make quality sub frame connectors for other vehicles. If there was enough of a market for them I'm sure someone could be convinced to manufacture them for the Maxima.
My guess is that there would be less of a noticeable difference with a V6 FWD chassis, vs a higher torque RWD which tends to twist the car more.
I know my Maxima feels a lot more solid than my Camaro... I can feel the body twist when I step on the gas in that car.

bigEL

Nice input, Jay. Funny you should mention Spohn. A guy in the 4th gen forum was working on a deal to get them to make SFCs for us. I hung high hopes on that, but the deal eventually fell through because we couldn't get a donor car, then Spohn apparently lost interest or got busy with other projects. The guy also stopped pursuing the deal after he got his SFC from Warpspeed.

Read the drama here: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=425928

chr0nos

iTrader: (1)

how would you know if there is a good market for these, if nobody makes a descent set?
it's kinda like "who came first? the chicken or the egg?" i think if we had a good manufacturer make a quality product, more people would buy them.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

I've given up on "somebody" making them "for the maxima."

I was at the one of the top race shops in this area yesterday (Piper Motorsports, well known for their GP race teams), who said they could build some stage I SFC's for around $200, no problem. And these are NOT guys who will do something for you just because you'll pay for it - they will only do things that will be effective, since it's their reputation on the line. They make frame bracings, roll cages, and that kind of thing. They had a 5-series BMW road racing car with the whole interior out, getting a full roll cage put in, while I was there.

Sciff, like I told you in the PM, those guys you are talking to are full of ..it. They sound like they don't want something as simple as the frame rail design because they can't charge you much for it (Piper quoted me $35 in materials and 2 hours labor)....Hey, let's rip out the floors, do all this BS, and then they can charge you $2000 for it!

The effects of the SFCs cannot be argued with respect to the Maximas. Of EVERY SINGLE PERSON on here who has them, there are nothing but positive reviews, in terms of both handling and ride quality (I'm not referring to the poor fitament/customer service by Warpspeed, but only the effect of correctly-fitted SFCs)

As to market...sure a few people would get them, but it's been proven time and time again that people here on the org won't put their money where their mouths are when it comes to products that aren't "bling" or don't change the look of the car at all (see: LTB, 2-piece rotors). SFCs would be mostly bought by those of us who autocross or are really into suspension and handling (as opposed to 90% of this forum who would rather go for looks or horsepower).

If I was a manufacturer, I wouldn't make SFCs for the maxima either. There's just not much of a market. Make em for a Mustang or Camaro, you'll sell 1,000 of them or more. Make em for a Maxima and maybe you'll sell 20 or 30...not exactly a big, profitable venture. All I'm saying is don't get your hopes up for a mass-marketed SFC. Go to a shop that CAN make them, tell them what YOU want them to make, and tell them to STFU and do what you want or you'll take your business elsewhere. "Performance shops' know jack about maximas, so how can they tell you what you need? Please...

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Reasons supporting these 2 statements please.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Just talk to Catts, Blehm, Jeffy, Steve G. etc etc. We're lucky to have the market we do given the .Org cheapness that is exhibited time and time again when it comes to mods that actually do something to help both power and handling.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

That's like saying "a subwoofer will help much more than midrange speakers will"...

Not apples and oranges, but more like Tangerines and Oranges...The SFCs address a different part of the car than does the LTB. The LTB reduces flex in the control arm assembly and forward end of the car. LTB does nothing for the long, flimsy subframe between the front and back wheels. Furthermore, the LTB does not improve ride quality, while the SFCs do, according to everyone who has them. They are related in purpose, but it's not an "either-or" IMHO.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

well, according to the pictures in one of the previous threads it seems like it will not make any difference, but, as I stated in the previous post, that's just my opinion based only on the pictures.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

True, but control arm assembly flex hurts cornering much more than flex in subframe IMO, which means getting SFC without LTB is virtually useless. (just like upgrading midrange speakers without the woofer lol)

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

it depends on if your focus is handling/steering response or handling/ride quality, I suppose.

bigEL

Whoa! Piper Motorsports?! Man, how'd you talk them into taking time off from their business/racing program to make you a one-off custom set of SFCs?! Hey, any chance that they'd make a couple extra sets?

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

I'm sure they would....just would have to bring your car down. Don't know about taking time off for them, they seemed pretty accessable. They made a roll bar last month for Cutler's Miata....they're about to move into a buidling 7x as big as their current one, with more bays and garage space.....

I didn't talk to Mitch (Piper) himself, but he is supposedly always up for working on projects for people.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

I know your opinion was based on the pictures... I was curious as to what exactly you saw in the pictures that made you arrive at the conclusion that the SFCs would not make a difference.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm... they are in VA. Thats a hell of a haul from Cape Cod Ma but I am actually contemplating making the trip if they would be able to do the work in the next 3 weeks. I would much rather find a good shop around New England but it seems like everyone around here is into drag racing. They seem to know very little about handling

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

ok, let's try to explain:


(vehicle is turning left)

This is a rough sketch of the forces that act on the vehicle when the vehicle is going through the corner. All those forces make the body flex and decrease vehicle’s cornering ability. We need to cancel out (or equalize if cancel is not possible) those forces, which will allow the body maintain its original geometry.

FSTB contributes to equalizing F2 and F3
Stage 1 LTB contributes to equalizing forces F8 and F9
Stage 2 LTB contributes to canceling F8, F9, F6 and F7
Cross bars in a rollcage contribute to canceling F1, F4, F5, F6 and F7
If we were to connect FSTB to the rollcage it would contribute to canceling F2 and F3 along with F1, F4, F5, F6 and F7

However, I really don’t see how SFC can help the body maintain its original geometry.


This is by no means 100% correct interpretation of how the body and suspension flex can be prevented but that’s how I understand it.

Jay_Alix

I have several hundred $$ in Spohn suspension parts on my Camaro and build quality wise, they put the Warpspeed stuff to shame. Spohn makes a lot of money in the Camaro market, but new products take time to develope. Honestly, if someone dropped the car off, figure on a month, then probably 6 months or so later the car, or another would have to go back for test fitting and installation of the prototypes.. then there would likely be revisions since he has no experiece with building them for a Maxima. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of his products and will be buying more for the Camaro, but what he says for a time time table, generally ends up being a lot longer. It's a very small shop, my friend worked there for over a year, and new products for Camaros ( where he makes the most money ) take forever. He's been working on a tubular K member for over a year.

And if there is a market for them.. they will be built. from what irish44j has said.. honestly the Camaro boards are pretty much the same way... there are a lot more dreamers than spenders.. but the benefits of the SFC on a Camaro are proven, and serious race car drivers kept asking for them.. so they got built. The Maxima is not a car that is used in racing applications as widely as the Camaro, so the demand initially will be less. It's going to take enough people expressing serious interest to the point of being willing to spend the money. My Camaro has a T56 ( six speed transmission ) in it right now. The car never came with one from the factory and requires a special custom cross member. People started making their own to do the T56 swap.. and it became popular that there are a few different places you can now get a bolt in crossmember.

Personally I'd never spend the money since my Maxima is staying as my nice daily driver, and I'd never see any benefit from it.

chr0nos

iTrader: (1)

irish: if they piper fabricates sfcs using your car as a test subject, would that be a good blueprint to make more, and sell them to other .org members?

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Your explanation only attempts to explain how FSTBs, LTBs, and roll cages work, and not how SFCs are ineffective. Unless of course you mean to say that with those installed, there is no use for SFCs, which to me, is wrong.

My understanding is that SFCs help to firm up the chassis by reducing body flex over bumps. A consequence of this is that reduction in flex allows the suspension (struts/springs or coilovers) to do their job better since the chassis is not twisting as much and so more of the load is on the suspension set-up. Any impact force and the forces used to counter roll during cornering are transferred more directly to the suspension to be dissipated. That being said, the SFCs function independently from the components you explained and therefore you have not disproved their effectiveness in your explanation.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Oh yeah, that and the fact that practically ALL who have em on their Maximas say they are one of the most effective handling mods they've ever done.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

It’s starting to make much more sense now. I have totally neglected the fact that soft chassis will act as a part of suspension, which will ruin the benefits of a well built suspension.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Just trying to clarify and gain more information is all.

AllGo

iTrader: (1)

This whole thread started with sciff5 and his I35 who wants to get his wspd sfc's installed and the shops he brought them to kept scoffing at the design.

Well I will say this, I have had both stage 1+2 on both my old 98 I30t and also on my current 02 GLE. They ARE, HANDS DOWN, the most noticeable overall ride quality enhancement you can make to a unibody design vehicle, short of a full cage and What daily driver wants a full cage inside their vehicle?

On both cars I got stage 1 installed alone and drove the car for 3-4 months and then installed the stage 2. This was mainly because Dallas did not have both stages ready to send me at first but I got to experience the difference one stage at a time. I got to feel the crisper handling and better ride quality, and overall improvement of how the car felt with just the stage 1. The things I speak of are noticeable as soon as you pull out of the shop and go over a speed bump or a road transition. Stage 2 further ties in the driver to pass sides and also diagonally across the floorpan and the effect is nearly as dramatic as stage one. Simply put the car feels as if there is a 4X6 sheet of metal sitting squarely under the car which all but eliminates the huge flexible area between the wheelbase.

I have considered a LTB on my car but it seems it is more for extreme handling in nature and from what I see the stock subframe black steel cradle where the lower control arms are mounted is pretty hefty already. I mostly wanted achieve German solidity with my inexpensive Japanese car. Overall cowl shake, squeaks and rattles have been eliminated. I have had every suspension setup on both my I30 and my 02 Max and even with a FSTB/Illuminas/H&Rs/RSB the car still doesn't feel as Solid/German until I had these SFC's done.

Dallas at WSPD, is really a good guy if you get to know him, but the R&D and time to actually manufacture the SFC's just hasn't been a priority of his up to this point. He has for the past 4-6 months been building a larger facility where he can increase his assembly capacity and product lines. I spoke with him last week and explained to him that if he could get the supply up on these SFC's for the A33 Chassis that he would most likely have 50+ people alone from the ORG. that would be interested now. I know they have worked for me and if enough people call Dallas to let him know they want them maybe He will make it happen. He can be reached at 479-246-9811.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Trust me I have called him a ton.... its worthless

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

I've been wanting SFCs for a while but my problem is I haven't felt like calling around yet to find any local shops that will do them right. I can count myself in as a customer for the stage 1's once they're available and tested though.
Perhaps it could help to keep a registry of shops around the regions that can do that kind of work (4 post lift, welding services)?

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Thats tons of shops... What I have found though is not only does a shop need the tools and the expertise on how to fabricate intricate parts they also need to be into road racing themselves and have a deep background in chassis design and suspension set ups.

Dave B

I had WSP Stage I and then Stage II SFCs on my 96 Maxima. I will be the first one to admit which of my mods work best and which ones are a waste (ie UDPs and intakes!!!). The Stage I SFCs were probably the single best mod I did to my Maxima. They honestly improved the ride quality (less chassis flex means the suspension can do more work), improved the handling especially on turn-in and at the limit, and they reduced some of that infamous rear rocking of the beam. With Stage II, I noticed basically nill. Don't waste your money.

As for those questioning the mounting location of Stage I, take a look under the Maxima. Ya see those two long beams that run down the side of the underbody. Yeah? Those are unibody frame rails. Stiffen those and you'll reduce twisting and impact flex. It's quite simple really.

I am blown away that so called speed shops are questioning the validity of these components when the Mustang/F-Body SFCs work of the same exact principal. Sure they look visually different, but they're all doing the same thing by stiffening the unibody frame rail system.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Keep in mind that the 5th gen chassis is much improved over the 4th gen chassis. Supposedly a lot of the weight Nissan added in the 5th gen design was from a beefier and better-braced chassis. The 4th gen chassis must be one of the flexiest chassis of its class and era, and so adding SFCs can indeed make a huge difference. (I hate my ride and will be installing SFCs soon.) But from AllGo's testimony above, it sounds like the ride of a 5th gen can also be substantially improved with SFCs, so for the price I would be so bold to state that it's the best mod you can do for your Max for the money.

The person above who was saying SFCs are a waste for a daily driver fails to understand what SFCs do and how different the car feels all the time, whether at the track or driving over speed bumps at 5MPH in a parking lot. The car will feel much more solid, much more like an expensive car, and rough road surfaces will be far, far, far less annoying and painful.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Hell I want them so bad because my car is a daily driver so far I have only heard great things from them. You know I was thinking, if I'm gonna get custom SFCs I was thinkin of ways to possibly improve them for more rigidity what do you guys think of this..

Excuse this very crude diagram

[Frame Rails Along the Bottom of the car]
L__________________________J

Above is what the normal stage 1 SFCs look like from warp speed

This is what I was thinkin about to take stress of those small tabs at either end and to stiffen up the SFCs

[Frame Rails Along the Bottom of the car]
L____\/____\/_____J

This way there will be a couple sets of small triangles (a very strong shape) to further stiffen the frame rails and it should more evenly distribute the stresses the SFCs experience over more welds.

Also I may be wrong but the cross braces just seem to tie into the floorpan. I was thinkin about making the cross bracing tie into the frame rails and the floor pan. What do you guys think?

NYPD-Arnold

iTrader: (8)

What!? Are you serious?

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Yeah hes serious. SFCs improve the ride of the car, at the very least they keep the ride stock while improving handling. Thats why I cant understand why people arent jumping all over them.

NYPD-Arnold

iTrader: (8)

But will it benefit road absorbtion when you have an aftermarket suspension?

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

In theory, yes, it should. In fact, with aftermarket struts/shocks, it's probably that much more imperative that you have SFCs, because the stiffer your struts/shocks are, the more the chassis becomes a "flexing" part of the whole car's suspension.

BlackBIRDVQ

iTrader: (15)

Irish- put me down for a set of SFCs if you have Piper make them. I can't take my car to a fabricator right now as its my only car that drives- Q45 will be drivable sometime next month, and my woman drives our Legend. When the Q is up and runing I can leave my Maxima in the shop for some SFCs for as long as it takes- no more than few weeks thou.

I didn't spend over 2K dollars on suspension to have it hamppered by jello like chassis that cant cope with high G forces. Hell my stock 94 Q45 feels more solid than my Maxima could ever hope for. I am probably going to be the 1st 5th gen around with a roll cage and no interior pretty soon.... just gotta get my Q45 100% restored.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Irish, what kind of welding do they use?

I’m not quite familiar with all this welding stuff, but I know that certain kinds of welding cause the chassis to start rusting much earlier. If my car is not ganna start rusting soon after the installation I’m also interested.

NYPD-Arnold

iTrader: (8)

Now I'm curious...is an SFC and lower tie bar the same thing or not?

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

If you drew a rectangle with the four wheels of a car as the points, the area inside the rectangle is where the SFCs go. The LTB goes under the engine and tranny. So the LTB affects cornering and stuff in front but really doesn't affect chassis stiffness at all.

Ride in a 2002+ Altima with aftermarket springs and then ride in a 4th gen Maxima with aftermarket springs and you will appreciate the difference in chassis stiffness; it's truly huge.