VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Blackbird, do you have any recommendations for shops in the Chicago area that are experienced with chassis welding and/or making custom SFCs?

NYPD-Arnold

iTrader: (8)

So how much are the Warpspeed SFCs then? There's no price listed. Are they expensive?

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

Here's the deal on Piper.....

1. I don't know if they are going to be interested in mass-producing these - they are an in-demand performance shop here, and my intention is to have them build the sfc's on the car (they said it should take 2 hours)...for them to make the design to sell/ship, they'd have to also make a template for the pieces...

so....I will ask them for sure, but I'm betting that if anyone wants piper to make them, they will have to drive down here to do it. I still can't believe you guys in big cities like chicago can't find a shop that can do this. Piper made it sound like it was really easy as heck to do, and that any shop that specializes in roll bars/frames shoul be able to do it.

2. I dont' know what kind of welding they use, but these guys have a GREAT reputation (never heard anything bad about them at all), so I'm sure they use the "best method" available.

3. I won't be doing this for a few months, so I hope you guys can wait

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Well it's easy to make a template or jig or simply record the measurements for a given car model. This is an amazing mod, extremely cheap, and a company could stand to make quite a lot if we advertised on the Org. Given the way things on the Org work, I bet once a few new people installed SFCs and saw the results, they would post "wow!" threads on the Org, which would stimulate interest and the orders would roll in for this $200ish mod. I don't know how many SFCs Warpspeed has sold but if they had decent communication and production capacity I bet they could have sold 10 times as many.

Anyway, when you do go to get your SFCs fitted and installed at Piper, definitely inquire if they'd be willing to make them en masse. If you were willing to take on the responsibility/risk, you could buy the parts from them and sell them on the Org at a good rate. You can argue that any decent exhaust/suspension shop should be able to make these, but many Org members don't live near good shops and many that do may not know about them. Thus, someone selling SFCs custom made for Maximas that are all set to go, just need to be welded correctly, could sell a lot. It's like: do I want to do a lot of hunting and talking and explaining to get a set of SFCs that might be a little better or cheaper (or might not), or do I want to simply order the ones that are known to work and just pay a little shipping. Easy choice, even for a perfectionist like me.

That said, I'm prepared to call shops as far away as Chicago because I want SFCs so badly!

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

blackbird...make that the 2nd 5th gen with rollcage and no interior...that's if I beat you to it...

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Actually, now that I think about it someone should ask Matt Blehm if he wants to start making SFCs, since he knows (A) so much about Maximas and (B) so much about suspension/chassis modification, and (C) already does business via the Org.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

it has been asked before. According to Matt, he has a kind of "gentlemens' agreement" with Dallas/Warpspeed that he won't make SFC's and they won't make some of the things he makes. I know I have personally asked him at least once or twice (via PM) with negres.

I agree though, Matt would certainly do a better job at selling/customer service WRT SFCs than Warpspeed does.

what can ya do though?

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

I agree with you completely, but most of the cars at Piper are getting THOUSANDS of $$ in work done on them, so a $200 piece may not be worth their time (plus factor in the time you spend shipping stuff and dealing with customers online/via phone). I don't think these guys ship parts...they make stuff on-premises for cars that are there, so they can be 100% sure of fitament on EVERY car (even if the frame is bent/different for some reason). I'm pretty sure they don't have a "shipping department" or anything like that - they are just a bunch of guys who work on cars

Example: One of the cars I saw them working on was a 5-series BMW, entire interior gutted and full role CAGE (not bar - cage) being fitted with race seats. This is like a $5K+ job on a car like that. And there were other cars sitting in their shop that were having even more done to them. They make their money on the labor, not the parts. He said materials for SFCs would only run me like $30 (no markup)...basically it's the labor that will cost me.

Again, not saying they wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

There's no way I'd take that on - I live in a townhouse and have an office job 30 miles from home, so I have no opportunity to deal with shipping stuff/UPS, and no place to store this stuff or packing materials for them. That, and my cash is being stashed away to buy a "real" house (not townhouse), so I don't have the up-front capital to buy a bunch of SFC's on the hope that I can sell them...

I will, though, inquire with Piper as to other shops that they might know about in the Midwest that they would recommend. If I were you and Mike Jez, I would check with the Mustang or Camaro guys, since there are TONS of American muscle-cars that get SFCs built - some of those guys may know a good shop. Also hit up the Miata guys - they always know the good shops were roll bars/cages are built (that's how I found Piper, from a Miata guy)....

BlackBIRDVQ

iTrader: (15)

I do have a QUALITY shop who does some killer exhaust work right around my work, I am taking my Q45 there sometime next month for a custom exhaust from headers back. I will inquire bout SFCs while I am there, guy who owns the shop used to be a Nissan Tech at the Nissan dealer next to my Acura dealership. Everytime I drive by that exhaust shop I see old classic cars and muscle cars getting work done on them, I also had them weld my 02 sensor bung up in my headers after installing them. Shop is called Exhaust Works in Naperville, IL.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Thanks Irish, that's what I figured. Good luck with your SFCs and be sure to post your impressions after installation. Oh, do you know anything about what type of steel (including shape and diameter of the tubes) makes a good SFC? The bigger and thicker the better but I wonder how big and thick. If they're saying it's $30 in parts I assume it's basic cheap steel, which is probably more than stiff enough. I suspect that the design of the SFCs, including welding points and bracing, matters more than material.

Mike thanks for the info! I will need a good exhaust shop anyway since my Greddy catback hangs too low right now and would probably get in the way of SFCs. I don't really trust shops around here to do anything serious so I'll probably get it all done this spring at Exhaust Works or a similar place.

Jay_Alix

Well I have DRIVEN and OWNED cars with more torque, stiffer suspension, t-tops, and RWD which trust me adds up to one hell of a lot more flex than the Maxima. RWD by design flexes the chassis more in straight line situations. Did I notice a difference, of course. Did it improve ride quality? No. As for rough surfaces? LMAO yeah explain to me how it's going to improve? It made absolutely NO positive difference, if anything worse. The Camaro bounces over rough surfaces the same as it did stock.
And as far as speed bumps, lol, I drive over them at work.. the car twists and creaks less, but I have to go even slower because it bounces even more.
I stand by my comment that on my daily driver Maxima they will be of no value. I speak from the experience of driving a worse chassis with more flex and not noticing a huge difference in overall ride quality.

spirilis

iTrader: (2)

I'd imagine once the SFCs are on there then "smoothing out the ride" becomes a matter of spring/strut choice, since the "bouncing" would be caused mostly by the choice of struts/springs?

I thought I read way back about how BMW uses the strategy of providing a stiff chassis but then following up with soft springs to make the ride comfortable... the stiff chassis affords them the ability to use softer springs while maintaining good handling.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Agreed. If the suspension is extremely stiff or bouncy, SFCs would definitely add to those effects since further allowing the suspension to do its job would make it even as or more stiff or bouncy than without SFCs. For cars with properly dampened or more "comfortable" suspensions, I'm still pretty certain that SFCs can only serve to improve ride quality. The past feedback of many like Matt Blehm and Dave B have only served to reinforce that belief.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Call me if you're going to Piper anytime soon. I'm interested in tagging along.

AllGo

iTrader: (1)

I would never expect a "Camaro" to ever ride very well regardless of SFC's, as the level of refinement in those discontinued vehicles is more akin to that of a 80's pickup truck. I would reserve these types of observations to those who would own a Camaro.

You must also consider the quality and design of the SFC's that were used. Power/Torque aside, stiffening the entire area between the wheelbase of any vehicle, will create a better more solid vehicle. Once this foundation can be improved, suspensions can do their job more effectively and in most cases can be softened to increase ride quality without much degradation of handling.
Point Blank, your 2000 Maxima would see a huge improvement in the areas already discussed with the installation of WSPD style SFC's.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

apples and oranges....comparing modifications on a camaro and a maxima is ridiculous, as they do not have the same types of frames, same types of suspension, same drivetrain, or same anything else. We are not only talking about torsional "frame twist" via the drivetrain torquing, but also longitudinal stiffness - furthermore, the weight distribution and drivetrain of the maxima manipulate the frame in different ways than a camaro would, so it is not a valid comparison.

As to your standing by your comment, that's all well and good - but the fact is, you haven't driven or been in a Maxima with SFCs, so you're really not speaking from ANY experience whatsoever, in truth.

I have driven, ridden in, and watched in autocross Maximas/I30s with SFCs. Both in handling and ride the effect is obvious. Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the org with SFCs on their Maxima swears up and down that they are the "single best mod" they've ever done to their Maxima/I30/I35.

People who KNOW from experience about mods on a maxima > people who are trying to correlate a RWD T-top American coupe with a FWD 4-door Japanese sedan.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Anybody knows the weight of SFC?

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Probably 30–60 lbs depending on the exact design and material. This weight is trivial given the large increase in chassis stiffness. Also realize that all the extra weight is entirely at the bottom of the car which lowers the center of gravity a tiny bit, and lowering the center of gravity is always a good thing.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Stage 1 and 2 are 35lbs together.

BTW an UPDATE on my progress. I found a great shop in Hyannis. Nakutis Custom hotrods and choppers. The second I walked in there I felt comfortable. They got the car on the lift and I showed the guy the instructions on how to install the warp speed SFCs from there he was able to show me where everything hooked in and actually educated me a bit. The guy seemed very knowledgable, saying he felt he could even improve the design slightly. He basically told me everything I thought would be fair for a deal like this. He said he really needed my car in the shop for a week to a week in a half just because he likes to check and recheck and re check his measurements over and over and he needs the car in the shop for that. He said that the SFCs would be 350$ installed at the most and more likely around 300$. Basically the guy seemed like a cool guy who was quite knowledgable he even showed me one of the four custom choppers hes bringing to daytona, pointing out the welds I am guessing so I would know how well he could weld. He than said "I wasnt gonna say anything but look at this weld that Warpspeed shows in their instructions its a terrible weld, I would never put my name on it) he than showed it to his 13 year old son (who was working the lift) and asked him what he thought of the weld and the kid was like "who welded that, it looks like crap" LoL it cracked me up. That 13 year old puts me to shame when it comes to automotive knowledge.

I was going to go for it today and say lets go on the install but this past weekend my transmission started acting up a ton. It now slips like crazy and if I keep the gas planted the car starts shaking like theres wheel hop but the tires arent spinning, and it downshifts hard with a clunk. I thought I had a 60k warranty but it turns out I have a 70k powertrain warranty and I know the SFCs would void my warranty. So I think I should wait till my warranty is up especially with all these tranny problems. Man I hope Infiniti gives me a brand new tranny! So I guess I will probably get a Lower tie bar and a rear strut bar this christmas with my 350$ unless you guys have a better idea. I already have a front strut bar and a rear sway bar but once the warranty up I am getting SFCs made from this shop immediatly.

NYPD-Arnold

iTrader: (8)

Ouch...300 for an SFC sounds steep to me. Any ballpark figures on what the Warpspeed stuff goes for?

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Are you kidding me I would pay 500$ for them if that was the going rate. The warpspeed kit is 200$ and installation runs 100-150$, so this guys is offering this setup for the same price and there is no such thing as a single SFC. Dude do some research and try and find another suspension mod for 300$ that improves handling and ride quality as much as the SFCs.

I wouldent be spending money on them if I didnt fully believe in it
It was only after dealing with a couple stupid shops that I started to doubt SFCs use but now I see the light

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

So they're essentially going to make you a custom design and install it for $300ish? Sounds like a good deal.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Yeah and I wanted to make sure their name got out on this board "Nakutis Custom Rods and Choppers' in case anyone else was thinkin about getting custom work done. If I get the LTB I think I am going to have to get a shop to install it and I will deff be calling them. Once I get the SFCs I will obviously post plenty of reviews. I want to get a Gtech pro to get an idea of what the car is pulling on the skidpad before and after these mods

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Well aren't they in Massachusetts? Unless they're near me what good does it do me? But thanks for the info.

BTW, unless you're totally incompetent you can install the LTB yourself. It's just four nuts that you have to take off and put back on.

Jay_Alix

My point was not to compare the two cars, but to explain that I do have an understanding of what SFC do. I never said it was a BAD idea or that it shouldn't be done. I simply said on MY car I have no interest in spending the money. If someone wants to pay to put them on my car I'm in, lmao, otherwise I'll be sinking my money in to my "truck ridin inferior car that makes me a class below for owning it" I've tried building two project cars, and it just means neither one goes anywhere fast.

Anyone in western CT area looking to get this done, Miller Race Cars in Wallingford does excellent work. Not sure if he's still around, or if he is willing to do other cars than what he's familliar with though. Last # I had for them is 203-537-7836

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Irish said a while back that air tools were required. I dont have air tools so even if its easy.... i wont be able to do it

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

not "required" but they make things ALOT easier. I have done it twice with air tools, and once without. Trust me, with as many tight bolts as need to be undone under the car, and limited space to work (unless you have the car on a lift), air tools/impact tools make things 1000% easier.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

I've taken it on an off several times without air tools. Since I was one of the first to buy and install an LTB, Matt forgot to tell me one step of the instructions so my bar had to be bent to make it fit, but most people shouldn't have that issue. If for any reason you have problems installing the bar you can remove some of the control arm bolts to give you some play, then get the bar on, and then tighten everything to spec. There's not much that a 2' breaker bar can't handle. Don't be afraid of a little elbow grease.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Does it matter if the suspension is loaded or unloaded during this install? Could I drive it onto some ramps or do I have to use jackstands?

chr0nos

iTrader: (1)

i would put it up on jackstands. buy TWO 27mm sockets. i found out that i had to put both on in order to be ABLE to tighten the second nut. if the first nut is on somewhat, the ltb gets twisted slighly, and i COULD NOT PUT THE SOCKET ON THE SECOND NUT FOR SHEET.

NYPD-Arnold

iTrader: (8)

I guess I'll be ordering an SFC from Warp Speed.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

exactly...I had the same problem. Wish Matt had made the collars a bit bigger - it's tough to get the sockets in and out!

definitely put the car on jackstands.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

let us know how you like them, once you receive them in June 2009.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

haha . . . . .

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

HAHA aint that the truth. Thats why we are all getting them custom made because warpspeed is ****. Sorry dallas but you suck no matter how good your intentions are.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

I was going to give WS a third chance at getting my business (previous SFC and y-pipe interest), but the email I sent almost 2 weeks ago was never answered (again), so oh well.....

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

hey irish I was gonna get the SFCS because I have 59,500 miles on my car and I thought I only had a 60k warranty, but it turns out I have a 70k powertrain warranty and my tranny AND engine just **** the bed on me. everything should be covered by the warranty but now after all this crap I started thinkin about if I had gotten the SFCs installed earlier and voided my warranty, I would be very pissed right now. So I decided to wait on the SFCs till after 70k miles but once I hit 70K I am putting em in, I even have a great shop to do it now.
let me know how things go with piper. BTW my name is Josh too

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

The SFC's would NOT void your warrany on powertrain....because of the Moss-Magnussen Act, the dealer would have to PROVE that your SFCs were the cause of engine/tranny failure if they wanted to deny service. They might give you a hard time, but in a legal sense they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

if you had a bumper-to-bumper warranty and you had something go wrong like door mis-alignment or something, that maybe could be blamed on the SFCs - but definitely not engine/tranny problems. The SFCs have NO effect on the engine or tranny.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

hmm I will ask the dealer if they will cover it even if I put the SFCs on there and if they say no I will bring up that law case. If they still say no I will talk to the owner of the dealership and if they still say no I'll wait, but at that point they should say yes

How hard is it to hold dealerships to this law?

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Nothing quite like having a copy of it in your hand... If not that, at least read it well and know what exactly it allows and disallows. Almost any $tealer will try to convince you that any modification can void your warranty, so you have to show them that you're informed before they'll back down.

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/15C50.txt
Easier to read version: http://autopedia.com/html/HotLinks_LemonMM2.html

Good info regarding implications for aftermarket auto parts:
http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8128
http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/Dumm...e/id-2669.html