DFRMAX02SE

I found a thread which talks about trimming bump stops. Even though the H&R instructions do not say to cut them, it seems that this will probably take care of my issue. I will probably take the car apart next weekend and trim at least the rear 1" for starters. For now I took out the spare tire and my golf clubs to alleviate some weight.

felon

ok quick question to lazy to search this thread for it, but is the stock camber in the rear of a 5.5 gen have alot of negative camber? or has my car had something done to it?i just bought it a month ago and ever since people have been asking me about my negative rear camber...

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

According to FSM it can be anything between -0.25 to 1.75. So if negative camber is noticeable when the car is parked on a street I'm afraid something is wrong.

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

I was wondering if i could install Tokico Illumina shocks with the stock springs and if this is or isnt advisable by all of you who know a lot more about suspension than i do. THe only reason i ask is because i cant afford to spend more than about 450$ but i still want stiffer suspension. I cant lower it much because of a driveway issue. If you have any suggestions on other set-ups please tell me.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Ya, you can install Illuminas with stock springs, but from my experience OEM shocks match stock springs pretty well so I just don't think it worth the price of illuminas.

I wouldn't worry much about steep driveways. If you are not ganna go drop it by more than 2" you will be just fine.

If you can't spend more than $450, get RSB, stage 2 LTB, and ES sway bar bushings. It'll be the most affective handling upgrade for the money.

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info.

felon

well its not like wow it looks like aftermarket camber settings all around but for some reason to me it looks a lil bit more then usual idk maybe its just me..... and another quick question ...does anyone run tokico illuminas and tein s-techs at the track?

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

take it to an alignment shop and you'll find out for sure whether it's normal or not.

I believe Maxima96SE autocrossed his Maxima when he had s-tech with AGX. But I don't think anyone here runs s-techs on a road course though...

IMO, they drop the car too much and leave you with a limited suspension travel.

genovet

Thank you for the research.

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

I'm looking at ground control coilovers because i need to be able to adjust the ride height, but i want to lower my max. I was wondering if you can lower about an inch to an inch and a half on stock shocks or if i need to get a full coilover system. If anyone could estimate how long the stock shocks would last that would be awesome. Thanks

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

It depends on the spring rates and roads you will be driving on...

Personally, I would never use stock shocks with aftermarket springs. They are just too soft to control anything stiffer than OEM.

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the input. What type/brand of coilover kit or spring/shock combo would you recommend? They need to have adjustable ride height.
BTW are coilovers hard to install? they look tricky from the instructions i found. About how long does it take?

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Well, I can't really recommend you a good system, each kit has its pros and cons...

If you are mechanically inclined, have time to work on your car and always modify or adjust something there's nothing better than k-sports. They have camber plates, independent height adjustment and spring preload adjustment; all of that for something like $800. Shocks are also valved exceptionally well for both comfort and performance. The drawback is that they require frequent maintenance - cleaning, retightening, shocks can blow rather quickly if the car is driven on bumpy roads & in cold weather.

If you want maximum on track performance go with JIC magic A2. The drawbacks are price, "very firm" ride and short shock life expectancy.

Boss Chen and TEIN SS offer decent performance (better than any conventional spring/shock combo for our cars) and RELATIVELY good ride. TEIN SS dwarbacks: price (usually over $1100) and no independent height adjustment. (height can be adjusted, but not independently from the spring perch) Boss Chens drawbacks: the only thing that I have discovered so far is that the shocks are not IDEALLY matched with the springs. It's not that they are way off, but you do notice that from time to time.

There are also Progress coilovers, but the only thing that I know about them is that the shocks are not adjustable.

Ground Control sleeve coilovers - IMO performance gains do not worth the price & pain in the *** to install.

Check the links on the first page to learn about the differences between the springs and the shocks.

It is not hard to install true coilovers, though sleeve coilovers could be indeed tricky as you have to somehow secure sleeve on the shock absorber.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Hey did you get your Boss Chens yet?

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

yea, over a month ago... lol

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

No review thread? Or did I miss it? I've been spending a lot of time researching Ls1/ Rx7 stuff and buying parts to build my other car.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

yea... you right no review thread yet...

I do not want to post a review YET because there are a couple of small thing I an not happy about, and I'm not 100% sure whether they relate to Boss Chens.

But I will eventually post it.

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. there is a set of d2 coilovers that i saw. Do you know anything about those? I can't do the k sports because i drive on bumpy roads and in cold weather both.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Don't know much about d2. But I do know that they are made by the same company as k-sports and that they are very simiar in design. (first they had d2, after that they came up with k-sports) I also know that the built quality is far not the best.

BTW, not to disappoint you, but if you want to buy coilovers (any coilovers) you should be prepared to replace your shock much sooner than you would with conventional springs/shocks. It does NOT mean that they will necessarily blow, but you should be prepared for that. As far as I know TEIN and Boss Chen shocks have the longest life expectancy. (Boss Chens did not prove themselves yet, but long service intervals was one of the main objectives when they were being designed)

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

Do you mean i would need to be prepared to buy new shocks to replace the ones that come in the coilover kit? About how long do they tipically last?

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

well, yeah... there's much more stress put on the shocks, and even though shocks for coilovers are stronger than your OEM shocks, they still tend to start leaking earlier. There's also a higher possibility of blowing them out in one shot on a speed bump or railroad tracks.

I can't tell you how long they typically last... They will definitely not last as long as the shocks made for regular springs, but if you are careful you should be able to get a few years out of them. As far as I know, most people get at least a year out of their shocks. [for coilovers]

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

OK. Thanks. One more guestion. I am looking at the tokico illuminas and the progress springs for the spring and summer. Do you need to do any cutting on the shock or have to use a spring compressor or what do you do to install the spring on the shock?

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

You need to use spring compressor. No cutting is necessary except for the bump stops. Although you do not have to cut the bumpstop, it's recommended because your suspension travel becomes very limited if you do not cut them.

Here's a complete howto: http://www.innerbean.com/housecor/strut_install.html

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

Would i need a spring compressor and still need to cut bumpstops if i went with the H&R springs and illuminas? also what type of camber kit or camber plates or alignment kit would i need or would you recomend with the H&R's? Thanks

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Procedure is exactly the same. You might be able to compress rear H&Rs without the compressor, but you will definitely need it to take apart your OEM strut assembly.

By lowering the car you are decreasing suspension travel, which IMO is not that long even with OEM springs. So, yes, you need to cut the bumpstop because you need to compensate for lost suspension travel.

Why are you so afraid of cutting bumpstops? It's just a piece or rubber... Compressing springs takes kinda long, but it's a very easy job, just be careful, and don't point the assembly at anyone else.

You won't need a camber kit for H&R. Unless you "slam" your car on coilovers, camber kit is not needed.

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

No im not afraid of cutting the bumpstops. I just dont know if i cut them if when i put the stock suspension back on in the winter if they will work properly.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

I beg to differ on the bumpstops. Anyone who's been around the Org knows that Org lore says always cut your bumpstops when you lower to improve your travel, but anyone who's been around the Org long enough knows that the Org lore is sometimes wrong or oversimplified.

Have you seen the bumpstops? They are made of foam that you can squish with your hands! When ~800 pounds per corner hits the foam, are you going to feel it? NO! However, the couple inches of foam will slow things down a lot so you don't crash out on the bumpstops. But if you hit the end of the travel with only half the bumpstop left, you WILL feel it. I guarantee it.

After installing my TEIN H-techs and Illuminas, the ride seemed fine over bumps. But I thought it would be even better if I cut the bumpstops, so I did. Now every time I hit any sizeable bump, the car makes a crash that makes me cringe. Part of this is due to the H-techs, which are not stiff enough for the drop, but even if you have Eibachs or H&Rs I would NOT cut the bumpstops.

I am switching to Eibachs for that reason and I've also bought NEW dustboots with NEW bumpstops because once you cut them you can't put them back together. So do a lot of reading before you decide to cut your bumpstops....

To prove that this also applies to 5th gens, see this thread for the following quote from Galo, a guy who knows what he's doing:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=291334

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Hm... that's a good question... it will certainly work, what I'm afraid of, however, is that OEM shocks might run out of travel before they hit the shortened bumpstop.

Are you planning to reinstall OEM components for the winter because of the ground clearance issues or because you don't want to put extra stress on the aftermarket shocks? With illumines you should not have any durability problems, they are pretty strong and people run them in all kinds of weather conditions. (unlike shocks that are made for coilovers)

Yes I saw the bumpstops, and you right, before they get compressed they are pretty soft. But here's the thing, the purpose of the bumstops is not to make the ride cushy, but to prevent the damage to the shocks in case they run out of travel. Those who need the bumpstops to soften up their ride are either, running poorly designed springs (what seems to be a problem in your case) or drive their cars inappropriately for the roads they are driving on (too fast.) There shouldn't be any problems with hitting cut bumpstop if the owner keeps in mind that he/she is not driving an SUV. The idea behind cutting bumpstops is to increase suspension travel as much as possible and at the same time not risk damaging the shocks when suspension runs out of travel. (something that should happen rarely enough for you not to worry about harsh ride associated with hitting bumpstops)

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Well part of the problem is the 4th gen chassis is so flexy that I can't stand driving around town with Illuminas above 2/2. So the softer strut setting makes it more likely to hit the stops.

My point is cutting bumpstops does not actually increase suspension travel, it just gives you an extra inch before you start to slow down the compression. Which I think is a bad thing because then when you hit what's left of the stop it's going really fast and you bottom out. And really, if your springs and struts are stiff enough to prevent you from getting close to bottoming out, why would you need to cut the stops in the first place?

Bottom line is, the bumpstops don't hurt the ride or handling at all in my experience and when you cut them, you are only cutting down your safety cushion that prevents bottoming out your suspension, which is bad for your struts, your whole car, and your body!

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Cutting bumpstops does not increase suspension travels, and riding on bumpstops does not hurt handling??

You ARE cutting down your safety cushion, but riding on bumpstops is still not an option... Not only does it hurt handling, but they will also wear out much sooner and will not work as bumpstops at all.

BTW, are you sure that you left enough rubber on the bumpstops for the shocks to actually reach them? You might not be even hitting them when you bottom out.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

How does cutting the bumpstops increase suspension travel? The bumpstops compress. Any increase in travel they give is the tiny amount right before you bottom out, which is not travel that you want.

Hitting the bumpstops hurts handling much less than hitting the bottom.

I followed the directions and cut about an inch off them.

sciff5

iTrader: (1)

Cut your bumpstops as recommended by the manufacturer. I rarely if ever bottom out and when I do bottom out with the cut bump stops its no worse then before they were cut

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

I honestly don't think that it's a "tiny amount..." Just look at how many people who cut their bumpstops are happy with the results.

Most spring manufacturers recommend cutting them as well.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

FWIW, TEIN explicitly recommended against cutting bumpstops for the 4th gen H-Tech installation. It may be because they made the springs too soft.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

I found some more info from that excellent M3 site that has lots of technical explanations. The H-Techs are definitely not stiff enough, but remember Galo had the same problem with Eibachs, which are just about the stiffest spring you can buy. I think trimming the bumpstops a little is good for certain setups and not at all is good for other setups. Another factor is the fact that many of us unavoidably have to drive on some pretty bad roads that have big bumps that will make even the stock suspension bottom out, and in these cases you want the full bumpstop as cushioning whether you're lowered or not.

"Cutting the bump stops may seem like a bad idea at first. After all, the bump stop is meant to cushion the impact when the limit of travel is reached due to a particularly large bump. But the fact is, most of the shorter springs that people install to lower their cars are also stiffer. Thus although a lower car has less suspension travel, it also needs less travel since a stiffer spring does not compress as far as a softer spring under identical conditions. So if you can achieve the proper combination of travel and spring rate, then your suspension is less likely to even reach the bump stops.

The interaction of the bump stop with the spring is part of a system analysis that will require a separate write up. Suffice it to say that the degree to which you can trim your bump stops is linked to how stiff your springs are. If you lower your car and do not trim the bump stops sufficiently then you will be contacting the stops frequently which will add a highly progressive effect to your overall spring rate. On the other hand, if you trim the stops too much then, when your suspension does hit the stops, the impact will be rather severe. Ultimately, matching bump stops to spring rate and ride height is a trial-and-error process."

http://e30m3performance.com/myths/travel/travel.htm

IloveVQ

iTrader: (1)

Well, im switching back to stock shocks in the winter for both the reasons mentioned above. Also, if i can get away with the bumpstops uncut with the illuminas and eibachs then thats what i think ill do. about how much suspension travel is left with the drop from the eibach and uncut bumpstops and is this sufficient travel? Thanks Everyone

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

Good find, this pretty much sums it all up.

BTW, did you have to make it invisible?

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

I don't think I can answer this question properly as I never had this setup. Send a PM to irish44j or sciff5. Both of them have this setup and both of them drive on far from perfect roads every day in all kinds of weather conditions.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

I would definitely install the spring/strut combo with the bumpstops uncut; if for some reason you feel you are hitting the bumpstops all the time, you can cut them later. It will be a pain to have to disassemble the suspension again but it's better than having to buy new bumpstops if you cut first and change your mind later.

Invisible, DrKlop? It appears fine to me but I'm using the old-school Org look (white/light blue) instead of that crap dark default look they have now.

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

yap, I can see that quote only if I highlight it. I didn't even realize that something was written there until I accidentally highlighted your post. lol