Mass_Media

No this isn't the Which header is better thread. Today, i was at my buddy's house (he has lifts) fixing my rattle from my exhaust. I get under the car and as i look at the first hanger holding up my headers....well.....its rusted through, its no longer attached to the header part (sorry for lack of photos. Im going back there tomarrow to get some) it has rusted all the way through. I have had it on i think since january. I also noticed that on some of the welds i see rust starting to come through. Not only that as i got back to there rear of my car, all the flanges on my cattman exhaust are flaking off with so much rust. Ive only had the exhaust for a year and a half. It looks like its going to rust through pretty soon. I was hoping for a better product from these two companies, since they are pretty big and well known.

Im not saying don't buy from them im just saying what is happening to me. I will also have pic tomarrow.

Mods if you need to move it then do so i figured it should go here because it is 5th gen related.

elgrande2003se

iTrader: (3)

You have got to be f'ing kidding me. On the hotshot website, they state that the headers have a thermal ceramic coating on them. This should not be happening. I wonder if there were a batch of them that they had shipped without coating.

Here is the warrantee info from hotshots website.
WARRANTEE
All Hotshot Performance, Inc. products are warranted to be free from defects in manufacture and workmanship for a period of one year from date of purchase. Warranty is limited to repair or replacement at Hotshot Performance's discretion. Coating is not covered under warranty.

I would assume that the hanger comming loose in 1 year to be a defect.

Here is more info from cattmans website

GUARANTEE
Cattman Performance-brand products: With limited exceptions, Cattman Performance-brand parts carry a limited one year guarantee. See the attached sheet (if any) for any conditional guarantee elements specific to the good(s) purchased. The guarantee is limited to the material and workmanship of the product under normal driving conditions, but does not cover failure of the product due to its misuse, faulty installation or the failure of a related part.



I would be making some calls if I was you.

Paulb

Mass_Media

Ill call hotshot, but cattman only has a 1 year guarantee....

03maxima1

iTrader: (13)

Let us know what happens.

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

I doubt they care.

03maxima1

iTrader: (13)

But if it is a defect and under warrenty they have to take care of it.

steven88

iTrader: (28)

that freakin sux ben....how badly has it been snowing over there?

Deckdout2

iTrader: (151)

Hope this isn't going to be a common issue. Especially for you guys up north.

BlackBIRDVQ

iTrader: (15)

I wouldn't be too worried bout the headers, mine look exacly the same- rust on the flanges has been forming. My HS headers on my old Sentra SE-R where approx 5 years old and they looked like azz and never leaked.

My Cattman exhaust is rusting slowly also but I do not think it will last more than 4-5 years before rust makes its way through the resonator- most rusted part. For now all of the rust is just surface rust, so I am not worried.

NiZMo1o1

iTrader: (45)

Thermal coating means its protects heat to disspite less..

Since you live where Snow/Salt effects the exhuast - piping.

are both Cattman and hot shot Stainless steel thats been Coated?

good luck

upstatemax

iTrader: (15)

I have had hotshots since last spring and I dont have a spot of rust on them?

However, my Cattman B-Pipe looks like crap and when I had the Muffler it took some cleaning to get it to look good again.

I would call John at HotShot, he is great and will help you in anyway he can.

doublea

iTrader: (7)

The flange are made from steel so in a snowy environment they will rust like crazy, making flange from SS would be much more costly and most buyer wouldn't want to buy or will argue it's too expensive.

Mass_Media

I would say a couple inches Middle of april and we still get snow. Right now its 36 degres. Weather man says its suppose to be 65 tomarrow. Welcome to utah weather for yea. It was 75 yesterday....

It makes sense that the flanges wouldn't be made of stainless steal. So im not mad about that anymore. Im calling hotshot today and see what they say. As for pics ill try and get some later but since its snowing, i don't know if i can.

glenmoormax

iTrader: (13)

not to mention a couple inches today.. and tons of rain, i hate this spring so far, everyday off i have its crap weather. Ben, you and justin are having bad luck right now with all these "pipes" lol take em all off and call it a day.

Larrio Motors

iTrader: (23)

There is also a lot of condensation inside the exhaust and hence the rusting may be from the inside - out. No amount of coating will prevent this unless the piece is made from stainless steel to begin with

shurik

iTrader: (6)

North or South but my Cattman has some rust on it as well, and it almost never snows here in Oklahoma!!!!
I guess the whole catback is not out of Stainless steel.

knight_yyz

iTrader: (40)

Stainless steel rusts as quickly as any other metal. It isn't rust proof. It's stain proof. Also snow doesn't cause things to rust. Salt does. And if you only drive it once a month to get a few groceries your stainless exhaust will be toast in one winter. You need to dry up the condensation from the inside by driving everyday.

shurik

iTrader: (6)

So what are the stains?? If it's not the rust then what else could it be? As I always knew, stainless still shouldn't be rusting in a year or so, and I do drive everyday. Hmmm so cattman do rust? You guys with cattman have yours rusted as well?

Larrio Motors

iTrader: (23)

I think the laws of Chemistry disagree with you

"Stainless steel remains stainless, or does not rust, because of the interaction between its alloying elements and the environment. Stainless steel contains iron, chromium, manganese, silicon, carbon and, in many cases, significant amounts of nickel and molybdenum. These elements react with oxygen from water and air to form a very thin, stable film that consists of such corrosion products as metal oxides and hydroxides. Chromium plays a dominant role in reacting with oxygen to form this corrosion product film. In fact, all stainless steels by definition contain at least 10 percent chromium.

The presence of the stable film prevents additional corrosion by acting as a barrier that limits oxygen and water access to the underlying metal surface. Because the film forms so readily and tightly, even only a few atomic layers reduce the rate of corrosion to very low levels. The fact that the film is much thinner than the wavelength of light makes it difficult to see without the aid of modern instruments. Thus, although the steel is corroded on the atomic level, it appears stainless. Common inexpensive steel, in contrast, reacts with oxygen from water to form a relatively unstable iron oxide/hydroxide film that continues to grow with time and exposure to water and air. As such, this film, otherwise known as rust, achieves sufficient thickness to make it easily observable soon after exposure to water and air.

In summary, stainless steel does not rust because it is sufficiently reactive to protect itself from further attack by forming a passive corrosion product layer. (Other important metals such as titanium and aluminum also rely on passive film formation for their corrosion resistance.) Because of its durability and aesthetic appeal, stainless steel is used in a wide variety of products, ranging from eating utensils to bank vaults to kitchen sinks. "

http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_quest...B7809EC588F2D7

EDIT: its not so much RUST-PROOF as it is RUST-RESISTANT. But it definitely doesn't rust as quickly as other metals.

caSE

For how these systems are priced they should be all stainless. They aren't even a long-tube header like a RWD car, they should be complete for under $500. If the exhaust was all stainless there wouldn't be any need for ceramic coating. I will gladly trade heat for stainless and better pricing.

knight_yyz

iTrader: (40)

I can quote stuff too. It would seem that the ceramic coating isn't such a great idea....

"Stainless steel, the dominant material in rigging today, is susceptible to its own special form of decay: crevice corrosion, also known as oxygen starvation. Stainless steel contains significant amounts of chromium. When exposed to the atmosphere the surface oxidizes slightly and a thin film of chromium oxide forms, preventing any further oxidation. If exposed to water, salt or fresh, without the presence of air, this film will not form and the metal will corrode. If the water in question is salt water, the process is accelerated.

Larrio Motors

iTrader: (23)

So how does this show that stainless steel rusts as fast as any other metal?

What automotive application do you know that is subject to an environment without the presence of air?

knight_yyz

iTrader: (40)

Did you even read the post? The ceramic coating is probably preventing the air to get at the stainless which in turn is not allowing the small oxidation coating to form...

Mass_Media

Alright guys pics as promised...Im guessing that my headers just barly rusted through as it looks like it has seperated farther than i remember. Sorry about the blurry pics i guess i took the pics to close.

Header hanger







This the catback.

Mass_Media

More.....





I also called hotshot today and i didn't get an answer i left a message. So we will see.....

nismopc

iTrader: (3)

Don't be suprised if HotShot doesnt call you back. They have a reputation of having poor customer support due to the size of their company. Small.

But, if you do get hold of them, they usually make good on their warranty. It'll just take forever to get it replaced.

elgrande2003se

iTrader: (3)

That hanger actually looks like the weld came apart rather than rusting through. Can you confirm this? My headers are shipping on the 20th, we will compare to see if this is a common issue with these or not. As for the rust, it looks to me like normal surface rusty exhaust. Funny though, I had my greddy on my altima for 3 years, and it never looked that bad.

Paulb

Mass_Media

I kept the rod so if you want to look at it. My buddy has an 97 eagle talon with exhaust on it for 3+ years and he said his wasn't even close to that bad. So i don't kno. they arn't cosmetic items so i guess it shouldn't matter, it just makes me mad that it came apart like it did. I inspected the headers when i got them and they looked fine.

shurik

iTrader: (6)

Man your cattback is RUSTY!!!!!!! Is stainless steel suppose to rust like that???

NewLoveI30

My stock cat back look 10 times better than that. Do they put a $hit ton of salt on the roads in UT?

We get paint chips from the gravel here... and who knows what this magnesium chloride does

Mass_Media

They put more gravel than salt on the roads.....

spdfreak

Thats big dissapointment to me, and of course you..I thought that SS would last longer than that..

steven88

iTrader: (28)

you know, cattman headers dont have any hangers....the only thing supporting the whole header is the 3 bolts per bank of cylinders on the engine...but there is no hanger like the stock ypipe....

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Just to clarify, Hotshot headers are not stainless, although Cattman headers (Gen 2 only, Gen 1 was not stainless) and cat-backs are...

At least, that's what those manufacturers advertise.

Puppetmaster

iTrader: (48)

Mine has a single hanger (rod) that fits where the stock y-pipe did.

steven88

iTrader: (28)

oops...i totally forgot this was a gen1 only thing...thanks for the clarification puppet

upstatemax

iTrader: (15)

They may take some time getting back to you, but they took great care of me when I had a problem with my headers.

Snolife

iTrader: (2)

This is not a good thing since I have the Cattman Cattback and Y Pipe and Im in the snow up here, when we get it, all the time. Not good. Hopefully Brian will chime in here soon.

shurik

iTrader: (6)

Yep I talked to Brian and he explained very clearly about all that catback stuff. I gave him a link to this thread and hopefully he should be here soon.

Cattman

iTrader: (77)

Good morning, Maxima afficiandos, looks like a few moments would be well spent here.

There's nothing abnormal in the photos I see of our catbacks and no reason for disappointment if you understand the metallurgical properties of the materials we use for catback tubing and flanges.

[I'm not commenting on the headers other than to say this isn't Hotshot's fault, its simply because ceramic coating is not permanent protection, it is meant to be "sacrificial" over time, and if its not cleaned regularly during exposure to winter road chemicals it can fail dramatically. If we ever made another ceramic-coated exhaust part I would advise customers not to use them in winter climates, period. Anyway, I don't have a dog in that fight, so I'll focus on our parts.]

We almost never use exhaust flanges made from stainless steel. They're typically made from cold-rolled carbon plate, so you'll see surface rust develop pretty quickly. But since its 3/8" plate, there will never be an issue with the integrity of the flange. I prefer not to use stainless for flanges because s/s expands a lot more when heated, which can work the fasteners loose at the flanges (it can also pull studs loose, and Maxima exhaust systems have few bolts, but many studs). Additionally, making the flanges out of stainless would add about $50 to the price of a catback.

The tubing is 409 stainless, which is a different alloy than the 304 we use in y-pipes and headers (409 is sometimes referred to as "automotive stainless"). 409 doesn't polish up like 304 will, and develops a very thin layer of surface oxidation over time. It never goes beyond that surface rust. 409 s/s is widely used in OEM and performance exhaust parts, it is extremely durable, will typically outlast any car, and has all of the heat retention properties of other stainless alloys, which is a little-known but important aspect of the performance advantage s/s provides. Here is some technical information about 409 stainless (reference follows):

409 is a titanium stabilised ferritic stainless steel. Although regarded as a general-purpose chromium stainless steel the primary application for Grade 409 is automotive exhaust systems. Its applications are those where appearance is a secondary consideration to mechanical properties and corrosion resistance and where some weldability is required.

Grade 409 resists atmospheric and exhaust gas corrosion. A light surface rust will form in most atmospheres; this rust retards further corrosion but makes the surface undesirable for decorative applications. The corrosion resistance is about the same as that of 3CR12 and the 12% chromium martensitic grades such as 410, and inferior to the 17% chromium grade 430.

(source: http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=969)

I'll note that the muffler can, and in some cases the resonators are wrapped in 304 stainless sheet metal, so of course those will have a different finish over time than the tubing.

For those who are now worried about corrosion on our (Cattman) T304 stainless y-pipes and headers, don't be. Yes, under some bizarre and exceptional circumstances even T304 will not stand up to corrosion, but that's pretty much limited to extreme marine (salt water) conditions. So, unless you've figured out some way to adapt these parts to your boat, and you're using it in the ocean, the part should last the lifetime of the car (in any of the s/s alloys).

If you'd like to educate yourselves a little more on the properties of 300-series stainless alloys, relative to exhaust applications, check out this link at the website of Burns Stainless, the company that supplies our T304 bent-steel tubing:

http://burnsstainless.com/TechArticl...s_article.html

[I'll anticipate a question, and provide the answer - No, these parts don't warrant using 321, 347 or 316 stainless alloys, nor would they be affordable with those materials; and, forget about Inconel.]

I hope this information is useful to some of you. I'd encourage everyone to pay particular attention to the discussion of the heat-retention properties of stainless steel and how those improve performance and make wrapping unnecessary. Resistance to corrosion is not the only good reason to insist on stainless steel tubing as an exhaust material.

Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance