wow your right, this made a bigger difference
#1
wow your right, this made a bigger difference
i posted a week ago saying my FSTB made a big difference and yes i still say it did but wow i just put on my progress RSB a couple days ago and i can say my maxima actually handles like a nice car and not like a beach ball on wheels. i love it
for Progress
![+1](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/+1.gif)
#8
Originally Posted by maximaownsyou
i posted a week ago saying my FSTB made a big difference and yes i still say it did but wow i just put on my progress RSB a couple days ago and i can say my maxima actually handles like a nice car and not like a beach ball on wheels. i love it
for Progress
![+1](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/+1.gif)
![Smilie](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Nomad
Well RSB is my second suspension upgrade on my max. It does make a difference. Yesterday I ran into the 85 degree signal @ 40mph and first time have heard how tires squeel when car oversteers
Won't do it again a lil scary.
![Smilie](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#10
Originally Posted by maxS
wow, that's an overstatement... i don't think maxima can oversteer ever, unless it's done on purpose... maximas naturally understeer.
![Scratch](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/scratchhead.gif)
The maxima can oversteer if you set it up to oversteer. Mine is almost perfectly balanced - no understeer or oversteer.
The maxima can be made to oversteer by:
- stiff rear sway bar
- stiff rear springs and strut settings
- poly bushings in rear
- rear sitting higher (spring height)
- high rear tire pressures
+
- soft front sway bar (or removed FSB)
- soft front springs/struts
- lower front end
- moderate front tire pressures.
I've set it up to oversteer on a few occasions at autocrosses. A car this heavy is tough to break the rear loose on, but trust me, it can be done
![Wink](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#11
Originally Posted by Nomad
Well RSB is my second suspension upgrade on my max. It does make a difference. Yesterday I ran into the 85 degree signal @ 40mph and first time have heard how tires squeel when car oversteers
Won't do it again a lil scary.
![Smilie](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#14
Originally Posted by Zero Deuce SE
Isn't that considered handling?
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by irish44j
uh.. ![Scratch](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/scratchhead.gif)
The maxima can oversteer if you set it up to oversteer. Mine is almost perfectly balanced - no understeer or oversteer.
The maxima can be made to oversteer by:
- stiff rear sway bar
- stiff rear springs and strut settings
- poly bushings in rear
- rear sitting higher (spring height)
- high rear tire pressures
+
- soft front sway bar (or removed FSB)
- soft front springs/struts
- lower front end
- moderate front tire pressures.
I've set it up to oversteer on a few occasions at autocrosses. A car this heavy is tough to break the rear loose on, but trust me, it can be done![Wink](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Scratch](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/scratchhead.gif)
The maxima can oversteer if you set it up to oversteer. Mine is almost perfectly balanced - no understeer or oversteer.
The maxima can be made to oversteer by:
- stiff rear sway bar
- stiff rear springs and strut settings
- poly bushings in rear
- rear sitting higher (spring height)
- high rear tire pressures
+
- soft front sway bar (or removed FSB)
- soft front springs/struts
- lower front end
- moderate front tire pressures.
I've set it up to oversteer on a few occasions at autocrosses. A car this heavy is tough to break the rear loose on, but trust me, it can be done
![Wink](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#16
Originally Posted by Stereodude
It seems like you don't understand what a RSB does. The car isn't going to handle much differently as a result of the RSB. It isn't going to cut through the slalom 5mph faster or anything like that. Basically, it just keeps the car flatter in the corners, by reducing body roll. It doesn't do much beyond that.
Originally Posted by Stereodude
Sorta, but not exactly. It improves the subjective feel of the car through the corners, but does not improve its ability to corner.
In a turn, the sprung mass of the vehicle's body rotates around an axis known as the roll center. If the vertical distance between the roll center and the center of gravity is not zero, a torque (roll moment) equal to the centrifugal force times the distance between the center of gravity and the roll center will be exerted on the sprung mass, causing the body to lean towards the outside of the turn. This force is called roll couple. The effect of roll couple is positive camber of the wheels on the outside of the turn, which reduces their cornering grip. [my note: this applies both to the torsion-beam rear suspension on our cars and to independent suspension setups]
Roll couple is resisted by the suspension's roll stiffness, which is a function of the spring rate of the vehicle's springs and of the anti-roll bars, if any. The use of anti-roll bars allows designers to reduce roll couple without making the suspension's springs stiffer in the vertical plane, which allows improved body control without compromising ride quality, at least on smooth roads.
Increasing the roll stiffness of the suspension increases the rate of weight transfer to the wheels on the outside of the turn. As more weight is applied to the outer wheels, the adhesion of the tires is increased until their limits are reached, increasing their slip angles. If the front and rear weight transfer is unequal, the slip angles of the end with the greater weight transfer will be larger, resulting in understeer or oversteer. The use of anti-roll bars allows the weight transfer of the front and rear wheels to be adjusted separately, compensating for unequal front/rear weight balance and "tuning" the vehicle's handling characteristics.
Roll couple is resisted by the suspension's roll stiffness, which is a function of the spring rate of the vehicle's springs and of the anti-roll bars, if any. The use of anti-roll bars allows designers to reduce roll couple without making the suspension's springs stiffer in the vertical plane, which allows improved body control without compromising ride quality, at least on smooth roads.
Increasing the roll stiffness of the suspension increases the rate of weight transfer to the wheels on the outside of the turn. As more weight is applied to the outer wheels, the adhesion of the tires is increased until their limits are reached, increasing their slip angles. If the front and rear weight transfer is unequal, the slip angles of the end with the greater weight transfer will be larger, resulting in understeer or oversteer. The use of anti-roll bars allows the weight transfer of the front and rear wheels to be adjusted separately, compensating for unequal front/rear weight balance and "tuning" the vehicle's handling characteristics.
yet another argument for the "Advanced Handling and Suspension" Forum that we've been asking for and not getting.....
#17
Originally Posted by irish44j
yet another argument for the "Advanced Handling and Suspension" Forum that we've been asking for and not getting.....
Hey I think the advanced suspension idea is great, but I dont think theres enough people on the board who would visit it regularly so posts wouldent get a lot of attention thus not a lot of answers thus people would be less willing to ask questions in that forum.
thats the only problem I see with it
#18
Originally Posted by irish44j
I completely disagree with both statements. Adjusting front and rear sway bars or changing to stiffer/less stiff bars DOES have an effect on all aspects of handling, including the car's responsiveness and grip during slalom manuevers. This holds true whether it is applied on a maxima or my 1970 Triumph (which has had both sway bars changed to different rates). Since it's late and I don't feel like explaining in my own words, I'll use someone else's words. Please especially note the parts that I have highlighted.....As I see that you are an engineer, this should make perfect sense to you.
#19
Originally Posted by Stereodude
And how much faster did your max go through the slalom after you put a RSB on it? How much did the lateral G's on the skidpad improve?
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
But since you asked: I actually HAVE done skidpad measurements in my Triumph GT6 with the factory front and rear sway bars vs. thicker Addco sway bars at an SCCA event in the mid-90s. I don't have the precise numbers handy down to the thousandths, but the GT6 with stock suspension pulled a .87x on the skidpad, and with 2 larger sway bars (as well as poly sway bar bushings), pulled over a .9.
As to slalom...sorry no times. I autocross enough to know the difference in my overall times though, and most autox courses have multiple slalom areas. If sway bars were no improvement, SCCA would not bump cars up-class for having them.
So, I've answered your questions.....
now....explain to me, using engineering theory, why a sway bar DOESN'T improve wheel traction and handling in your view.
#21
Perhaps you boys should look at it from a slightly different perspective. The bar is not a sway bar as much as it is an anti sway bar. It's purpose as correctly stated above is to keep the body roll to a minimum which is what it does. It will not have the same impact to the overall handling of the car as a front shock tower bar or (down lower in the suspension) lower front anti sway bar as both of those help in determining the direction of forward motion.
That rear bar is going to help you get through that Xcross more comfortably and looking better![Wavey](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wavey.gif)
ahh Triumph GT6 cool car. My uncle used to sell 'em but back then I could never afford to insure one!!
That rear bar is going to help you get through that Xcross more comfortably and looking better
![Wavey](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wavey.gif)
ahh Triumph GT6 cool car. My uncle used to sell 'em but back then I could never afford to insure one!!
#22
Originally Posted by Mr. Peabody
Perhaps you boys should look at it from a slightly different perspective. The bar is not a sway bar as much as it is an anti sway bar. It's purpose as correctly stated above is to keep the body roll to a minimum which is what it does. It will not have the same impact to the overall handling of the car as a front shock tower bar or (down lower in the suspension) lower anti sway bar as both of those help in determining the direction of forward motion.
That rear bar is going to help you get through that Xcross more comfortably and looking better![Wavey](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wavey.gif)
That rear bar is going to help you get through that Xcross more comfortably and looking better
![Wavey](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wavey.gif)
After I put a RSB on my car it sits a lot flatter in turns, but it doesn't have appreciably more grip in the turns.
#23
Originally Posted by Mr. Peabody
It will not have the same impact to the overall handling of the car as a front shock tower bar or (down lower in the suspension) lower anti sway bar as both of those help in determining the direction of forward motion.
When you say 'lower anti-sway bar' I'm not sure what distinction you're making here...We are TALKING about the rear (lower) Progress sway bar, not the upper rear strut tower bar (which, I agree, does little to nothing)...
Originally Posted by Mr. Peabody
ahh Triumph GT6 cool car. My uncle used to sell 'em but back then I could never afford to insure one!!
![Me cry](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/mecry.gif)
Originally Posted by Stereodude
After I put a RSB on my car it sits a lot flatter in turns, but it doesn't have appreciably more grip in the turns.
![Wink](https://maxima.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#24
FSTB and RSTB do almost nothing in terms of noticable handling improvement on our Maximas.
RSB on the other hand controlls the amount of body roll and keeps the back end in check over rough pavements also. RSB makes a VERY big difference in handling compared over stock, it almost makes it feel like the car has MUCH stiffer rear suspension when used with OEM suspension. There aint a HUGE diff in handling when you are slammed on JICs for instance, but it can still be felt that the RSB does its job. I've had mine on my car for 4.5 years now, it was the 1st suspension mod I've done to the car. Its a Addco swaybar and it has approx 140K miles on it with no problems.
RSB on the other hand controlls the amount of body roll and keeps the back end in check over rough pavements also. RSB makes a VERY big difference in handling compared over stock, it almost makes it feel like the car has MUCH stiffer rear suspension when used with OEM suspension. There aint a HUGE diff in handling when you are slammed on JICs for instance, but it can still be felt that the RSB does its job. I've had mine on my car for 4.5 years now, it was the 1st suspension mod I've done to the car. Its a Addco swaybar and it has approx 140K miles on it with no problems.
#25
Stiffer RSB's help reduce roll couple and increase cornering forces, thus providing better skidpad numbers (a bit). It only helps slalom by reducing the body roll (um anti-sway) and increasing the responsiveness of the vehicle. Struts, SFC's, strut braces, and lower tire profiles should improve slalom more than the anti-sway bars.
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