Tire Balance issues--WTF!
01-31-2007, 09:09 AM
#1
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Tire Balance issues--WTF!
I ca not keep tires balanced for more than 3weeks. I had some crappy grandspirits mounted that were near end of life and thought they were just shot and nothing could be done.
Cooper lifeliners came with the car and never had balance issues so I put those back on.They are fairly new tires just been sitting in the shed for 3yrs. Had them balance 3weeks ago and BAM! driving down the freeway noticable wheel vibration above 50mph.
I have new struts, 3k on them
Got a 4 wheel aligned after the tires were mounted.
Could warped rotors cause enough vibration to make the tires wear funny and go out of balance.
I have power slots that are going on three yrs old and are starting to warp.
Cooper lifeliners came with the car and never had balance issues so I put those back on.They are fairly new tires just been sitting in the shed for 3yrs. Had them balance 3weeks ago and BAM! driving down the freeway noticable wheel vibration above 50mph.
I have new struts, 3k on them
Got a 4 wheel aligned after the tires were mounted.
Could warped rotors cause enough vibration to make the tires wear funny and go out of balance.
I have power slots that are going on three yrs old and are starting to warp.
01-31-2007, 09:11 AM
#2
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Check wheel bearings, bent rim/rims...
I really doubt it is your rotors causing it, when you tapped on the brakes the steering wheel would vibrate out of your hands if it was them.
I really doubt it is your rotors causing it, when you tapped on the brakes the steering wheel would vibrate out of your hands if it was them.
01-31-2007, 09:26 AM
#3
Something else to look at is tire pressure. I have had what I thought were balance issues before that turned out to be pressure issues. Not really the pressure being ran, but the fact that the pressure was not the same in all 4 tires. Last instance was only a 2 PSI difference in 1 of the 4 tires. My OEM "crap" rotors are warped, but I can still achieve good balance and a bounce free ride.
Good Luck...
Good Luck...
01-31-2007, 09:36 AM
#4
I agree ^
I've found that tire pressure differences can cause vibrations.
Additionally, I've had warped rotors cause vibrations at speed (know this because the vibration disappeared after re-surfacing of the rotors).
I've found that tire pressure differences can cause vibrations.
Additionally, I've had warped rotors cause vibrations at speed (know this because the vibration disappeared after re-surfacing of the rotors).
01-31-2007, 10:45 AM
#5
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welcome to the maxima.
4000$ to whoever can fix my vibration issues or keep it proper for more than a week. it's good once out of the shop but give it a week, and it's vibrating again. i've learned to live with it and ignore it. it seems to bump itself out of spec but gets no worse.. it's this bad because passengers haven't ever complained but i can feel it (mostly because i know how it rides out of the shop)
4000$ to whoever can fix my vibration issues or keep it proper for more than a week. it's good once out of the shop but give it a week, and it's vibrating again. i've learned to live with it and ignore it. it seems to bump itself out of spec but gets no worse.. it's this bad because passengers haven't ever complained but i can feel it (mostly because i know how it rides out of the shop)
01-31-2007, 11:03 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by upstatemax
Check wheel bearings, bent rim/rims...
I really doubt it is your rotors causing it, when you tapped on the brakes the steering wheel would vibrate out of your hands if it was them.
I really doubt it is your rotors causing it, when you tapped on the brakes the steering wheel would vibrate out of your hands if it was them.
I forgot to mention....
I did lift the car off the ground. There is no play in the front wheels, at all.
Because of this I do not think it is a bearing issue.
What is the proper way to check if wheel bearings need replaced.
01-31-2007, 12:45 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by ktranne
that and control arm bushings.
02-01-2007, 04:51 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by irish44j
wheels and tires forum........would yield more information on this discussion.
the only thing I saw in those forums was mostly sizing of wheels,tires, offsets...ect. Nothing of value to my issue.
Acctually you have been on this forum for a long time. Forget who but someone dropped your name stating you might be able to give me some guidance in how to start touble shooting this.....any thoughts?
So far:
New struts
front tires
No paly in front wheels
02-01-2007, 06:55 AM
#15
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Warped rotors won't cause wheels/tires to go out of balance. (However, improperly torqued wheels can cause rotors to warp, but that's another discussion.)
I feel your pain, I went through this very same thing on my Max a few months ago.
Verify that your tires are properly inflated. (Of course, it goes with out saying that you do this every month, like all good car enthusists do...)
Verify that you don't have any missing wheel weights. I lost wheel weights repeatedly for 3 wheel balancings. Ultimately, I had to beg the service writer to insist that the tech clean the wheels squeaky clean prior to putting the wheel weights on. The OEM wheels and most aftermarket wheels use/require weights that adhere to the inside of the wheel - not the hammer-on type weights. I'll bet this is the source of your problem, as most shops just scrape of the old weights then stick on the new ones without cleaning the surface. And, as you may know, most adhesives require a clean, dirt/oil free surface to work effectively. (How many of us clean the inside of our wheels?)
Verify that the lug nuts are properly torqued. The 2002 owners manual states 80ft/lbs of torque (page 8-35).
Verify that you have a proper alignment - of which you stated that you had a 4 wheel alignment recently done.
Verify that you don't have any bad/defective/excessively worn suspension components - and there are a bunch of them: steering rack, tie rod ends, ball joints, struts, strut bearings, king pins, wheel bearings, sway bar ends/bushings (I've probably forgot something...) Any one of these can allow vibration.
Verify that the tires are not defective. No abnormal wear (no cupping, feathering, etc), no sidewall damage, no slipped belts. All are visual inspections. Slipped belts can be checked by rapidly spinning the tire (by hand) and watching the tread scroll by. A normal tire will have the tread scroll by in a straight vertical fashion, but a slipped belt will show up as a jog in the vertical lines as the tread scrolls by (hope that makes sense). This should have been checked during your 4 wheel alignment, as slipped belts will not allow for proper alignment.
Verify that you don't have bent wheels. There are 2 out of round conditions for wheels, radial and lateral. Radial run out is where the wheel is egg shaped - it's not a perfect circle. Lateral run out is where the wheel is bent at the hub circle such that it wobbles left to right (as opposed to radial run out which is up and down).
GET A Hunter Roadforce tire balancing! The Hunter Roadforce balancing machine will detect both of these conditions - lateral and radial run out. When using the Roadforce machine, the tech is to perform both lateral and radial run out measurements on BOTH the wheel _AND_ the tire in order to verify that neither is out of spec. The Roadforce will provide a printout showing the runout measurements. It will also show how much weight is to be put on each tire.
Make sure that the tire tech is stripping off ALL of the old weights prior to balancing! They'll NEVER get it to balance properly if they keep trying to add weight.
On new tires there is a yellow dot indicating where the tire tech is to mount the tire to the wheel - usually in alignment with the valve stem. This is not a hard and fast requirement, but most of the time it is correct. The yellow dot indicats where the sidewall belts meet up and arguably, the tire sidewall is stiffer at this point than at any other point on the circumference of the sidewall. It (the yellow dot) is to be aligned with the valve stem and this is usually the lightest spot on the wheel. This is done to eliminate static balance issues.
Tires can get out of balance either staticly and/or dynamically. Static is very much like radial run out - it is an up & down motion. Dynamic is like lateral run out - it is a wobble or a left & right motion. Most tire balancing machines ONLY do dynamic balancing. ONLY (to my knowledge) the Hunter Roadforce does both. With larger diameter wheels and lower profile tires, cars have become more sensitive to balancing, particularly static balancing. And in particular, because low profile tire sidewalls keep getting stiffer, particularly as the aspect ratio goes lower, the static balance issue becomes even greater. Thus the need to have tire balancing machines like the Hunter Roadforce.
Good luck and may the Roadforce be with you.
I feel your pain, I went through this very same thing on my Max a few months ago.
Verify that your tires are properly inflated. (Of course, it goes with out saying that you do this every month, like all good car enthusists do...)
Verify that you don't have any missing wheel weights. I lost wheel weights repeatedly for 3 wheel balancings. Ultimately, I had to beg the service writer to insist that the tech clean the wheels squeaky clean prior to putting the wheel weights on. The OEM wheels and most aftermarket wheels use/require weights that adhere to the inside of the wheel - not the hammer-on type weights. I'll bet this is the source of your problem, as most shops just scrape of the old weights then stick on the new ones without cleaning the surface. And, as you may know, most adhesives require a clean, dirt/oil free surface to work effectively. (How many of us clean the inside of our wheels?)
Verify that the lug nuts are properly torqued. The 2002 owners manual states 80ft/lbs of torque (page 8-35).
Verify that you have a proper alignment - of which you stated that you had a 4 wheel alignment recently done.
Verify that you don't have any bad/defective/excessively worn suspension components - and there are a bunch of them: steering rack, tie rod ends, ball joints, struts, strut bearings, king pins, wheel bearings, sway bar ends/bushings (I've probably forgot something...) Any one of these can allow vibration.
Verify that the tires are not defective. No abnormal wear (no cupping, feathering, etc), no sidewall damage, no slipped belts. All are visual inspections. Slipped belts can be checked by rapidly spinning the tire (by hand) and watching the tread scroll by. A normal tire will have the tread scroll by in a straight vertical fashion, but a slipped belt will show up as a jog in the vertical lines as the tread scrolls by (hope that makes sense). This should have been checked during your 4 wheel alignment, as slipped belts will not allow for proper alignment.
Verify that you don't have bent wheels. There are 2 out of round conditions for wheels, radial and lateral. Radial run out is where the wheel is egg shaped - it's not a perfect circle. Lateral run out is where the wheel is bent at the hub circle such that it wobbles left to right (as opposed to radial run out which is up and down).
GET A Hunter Roadforce tire balancing! The Hunter Roadforce balancing machine will detect both of these conditions - lateral and radial run out. When using the Roadforce machine, the tech is to perform both lateral and radial run out measurements on BOTH the wheel _AND_ the tire in order to verify that neither is out of spec. The Roadforce will provide a printout showing the runout measurements. It will also show how much weight is to be put on each tire.
Make sure that the tire tech is stripping off ALL of the old weights prior to balancing! They'll NEVER get it to balance properly if they keep trying to add weight.
On new tires there is a yellow dot indicating where the tire tech is to mount the tire to the wheel - usually in alignment with the valve stem. This is not a hard and fast requirement, but most of the time it is correct. The yellow dot indicats where the sidewall belts meet up and arguably, the tire sidewall is stiffer at this point than at any other point on the circumference of the sidewall. It (the yellow dot) is to be aligned with the valve stem and this is usually the lightest spot on the wheel. This is done to eliminate static balance issues.
Tires can get out of balance either staticly and/or dynamically. Static is very much like radial run out - it is an up & down motion. Dynamic is like lateral run out - it is a wobble or a left & right motion. Most tire balancing machines ONLY do dynamic balancing. ONLY (to my knowledge) the Hunter Roadforce does both. With larger diameter wheels and lower profile tires, cars have become more sensitive to balancing, particularly static balancing. And in particular, because low profile tire sidewalls keep getting stiffer, particularly as the aspect ratio goes lower, the static balance issue becomes even greater. Thus the need to have tire balancing machines like the Hunter Roadforce.
Good luck and may the Roadforce be with you.
02-01-2007, 08:12 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by JohnWEngle
Warped rotors won't cause wheels/tires to go out of balance. (However, improperly torqued wheels can cause rotors to warp, but that's another discussion.)
I feel your pain, I went through this very same thing on my Max a few months ago.
Verify that your tires are properly inflated. (Of course, it goes with out saying that you do this every month, like all good car enthusists do...)
.
I feel your pain, I went through this very same thing on my Max a few months ago.
Verify that your tires are properly inflated. (Of course, it goes with out saying that you do this every month, like all good car enthusists do...)
.
I did not imagine that balancing tires had so many variables to consider.
Once I find a shop that can road force balance, I will strip my own weights, clean the inside of my tires, and head in for a balance.
Thank you again for the wealth of information
Mike
02-01-2007, 09:07 AM
#17
Originally Posted by JohnWEngle
On new tires there is a yellow dot indicating where the tire tech is to mount the tire to the wheel - usually in alignment with the valve stem. This is not a hard and fast requirement, but most of the time it is correct. The yellow dot indicats where the sidewall belts meet up and arguably, the tire sidewall is stiffer at this point than at any other point on the circumference of the sidewall. It (the yellow dot) is to be aligned with the valve stem and this is usually the lightest spot on the wheel. This is done to eliminate static balance issues.
02-01-2007, 12:45 PM
#18
clarify: if it's a 'bumpy' feeling, it could be bad struts
if it's a "wobbly" feeling through the steering wheel, it is likely that the control arm balljoint and/or the tie rod ends are bad.
if it was a tire problem, you'd probably feel it at lower speeds too, IMO.
if it's a "wobbly" feeling through the steering wheel, it is likely that the control arm balljoint and/or the tie rod ends are bad.
if it was a tire problem, you'd probably feel it at lower speeds too, IMO.
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