Dry or Wet Nitrous kit on 5th Gen?
08-17-2001, 07:32 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 939
Ok fellas-
For all out there who have run nitrous on a 5th gen, did you run a dry or wet kit? What type of shot did you run?
If I get nitrous, Ill want run at least a 75 shot to make it worthwhile. More than likely a 100 shot.
With this in mind, Ive heard a few folks complain about the weak fuel pump on the Max and how it doesnt like to increase pressure all that much. (ie, flow drops as pressure increase). Thus, Ive been leaning towards a wet kit to alleviate this concern.
Any thoughts?
For all out there who have run nitrous on a 5th gen, did you run a dry or wet kit? What type of shot did you run?
If I get nitrous, Ill want run at least a 75 shot to make it worthwhile. More than likely a 100 shot.
With this in mind, Ive heard a few folks complain about the weak fuel pump on the Max and how it doesnt like to increase pressure all that much. (ie, flow drops as pressure increase). Thus, Ive been leaning towards a wet kit to alleviate this concern.
Any thoughts?
08-17-2001, 08:59 PM
#2
I'm not too knowledgeable of NOS, but I believe I read a 75~100 shot was pushing it with our motors. I could be wrong. I am not sure where I read this. I am sure the benefits would be great, though, if everything works out. What kit are you considering?
08-17-2001, 09:01 PM
#3
I heard some guy in Russ's 5th gen forum talking about how he was angry about hi dry kit, so I guess I would go with a wet one...however I'm not the expert on NOS if you wanna know about seat belt bads though I'M YO MAN!
08-18-2001, 01:57 PM
#6
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,630
I will put my .02 cents in though i am 4th gen.
As far as NOS, the dry kit is easier to use and less work vs a wet kit.
When you go wet kit, you can go wiy a direct port injection like Tony aka 1MAX2NV. That require more tuning vs teh dry shot. You have to have the same amount of NOS & fuel in each intake manifold.
The dry shot just has a nozzle that goes into the intake. If you have a CAI, do it about 6 inches form your TB.
The stock fuel pump should be replaced if you are running a 75 shot. Anything over a 60 shot you should change it. You can get the 255lhp fuel pump. It costs about $115. You can always run a 60 shot wiht high bottle pressure so the shot is really more like a 70 shot. But fuel pump is still required.
Here is something i am going to quote from Turbo Magazine:
"There are two basic types of nitrous systems--dry manifold and wet manifold. A dry system uses a nozzle to inject only nitrous into the intake tract. Fuel enrichment is handled via the fuel injectors by increasing fuel pressure or injector pulsewidth when the system is activated. A wet system injects fuel and nitrous through the same nozzle. In conventional set-ups the amount of fuel and nitrous injected into the engine is determined by the orifice size of the jets installed in the nozzle. The typical system is activated by a throttle-mounted Hobbs switch that fires the nitrous solenoid and releases the nitrous when the engine sees wide-open throttle.
A possible drawback with a single-nozzle system is it relies on the design of the intake manifold to distribute the nitrous or nitrous/gasoline mixture to the cylinders. By virtue of their design or casting shifts some intake manifolds do not distribute air evenly to all the cylinders and as the power levels of the nitrous system increase the small differences in flow become more critical. At best, there is less precise distribution and a tuning challenge--at worst, the chances of creating a lean condition are increased.
The answer here is a direct-port system where fuel and nitrous are injected at the ports through individual nozzles positioned at each cylinder, ensuring even distribution. If you plan to run a moderate, say a 50-75 hp shot, a conventional single nozzle (wet or dry) system will work fine. At 100 shot one should consider the flow properties of the intake tract. The direct-port system is more involved from an installation standpoint as the intake must be drilled and tapped in each runner to accommodate the nozzles. Also, the port system runs a distribution block where the nitrous is routed to each individual nozzle. This plumbing also takes time and skill to install.
For racing and extreme street cars staged nitrous is the next step up. In this configuration, the system provides a set amount of nitrous at initial activation then ups the ante when the driver hits a button. These systems are basically two systems in one as each stage has its own solenoid and nozzles. The basic idea is to provide the extra power when the car has the traction to make use of it. Throwing a 250-hp shot at a front drive off the line will only granulate rubber and stress the driveline. There are endless possibilities when it comes to configuring a staged system. The major factors include engine status (built, stock), traction characteristics of the car and intended usage (street or race)." - Turbo Magazine.
As far as NOS, the dry kit is easier to use and less work vs a wet kit.
When you go wet kit, you can go wiy a direct port injection like Tony aka 1MAX2NV. That require more tuning vs teh dry shot. You have to have the same amount of NOS & fuel in each intake manifold.
The dry shot just has a nozzle that goes into the intake. If you have a CAI, do it about 6 inches form your TB.
The stock fuel pump should be replaced if you are running a 75 shot. Anything over a 60 shot you should change it. You can get the 255lhp fuel pump. It costs about $115. You can always run a 60 shot wiht high bottle pressure so the shot is really more like a 70 shot. But fuel pump is still required.
Here is something i am going to quote from Turbo Magazine:
"There are two basic types of nitrous systems--dry manifold and wet manifold. A dry system uses a nozzle to inject only nitrous into the intake tract. Fuel enrichment is handled via the fuel injectors by increasing fuel pressure or injector pulsewidth when the system is activated. A wet system injects fuel and nitrous through the same nozzle. In conventional set-ups the amount of fuel and nitrous injected into the engine is determined by the orifice size of the jets installed in the nozzle. The typical system is activated by a throttle-mounted Hobbs switch that fires the nitrous solenoid and releases the nitrous when the engine sees wide-open throttle.
A possible drawback with a single-nozzle system is it relies on the design of the intake manifold to distribute the nitrous or nitrous/gasoline mixture to the cylinders. By virtue of their design or casting shifts some intake manifolds do not distribute air evenly to all the cylinders and as the power levels of the nitrous system increase the small differences in flow become more critical. At best, there is less precise distribution and a tuning challenge--at worst, the chances of creating a lean condition are increased.
The answer here is a direct-port system where fuel and nitrous are injected at the ports through individual nozzles positioned at each cylinder, ensuring even distribution. If you plan to run a moderate, say a 50-75 hp shot, a conventional single nozzle (wet or dry) system will work fine. At 100 shot one should consider the flow properties of the intake tract. The direct-port system is more involved from an installation standpoint as the intake must be drilled and tapped in each runner to accommodate the nozzles. Also, the port system runs a distribution block where the nitrous is routed to each individual nozzle. This plumbing also takes time and skill to install.
For racing and extreme street cars staged nitrous is the next step up. In this configuration, the system provides a set amount of nitrous at initial activation then ups the ante when the driver hits a button. These systems are basically two systems in one as each stage has its own solenoid and nozzles. The basic idea is to provide the extra power when the car has the traction to make use of it. Throwing a 250-hp shot at a front drive off the line will only granulate rubber and stress the driveline. There are endless possibilities when it comes to configuring a staged system. The major factors include engine status (built, stock), traction characteristics of the car and intended usage (street or race)." - Turbo Magazine.
08-18-2001, 02:03 PM
#7
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,630
Here is some more info from Turbo once again:
"For the basic 40- to 60-hp dry system no engine mods are needed. It would be wise to run premium 92-octane fuel and reduce the gap of the plugs. The fuel system should be checked to ensure it is in good working order. For some engines a colder plug may pay dividends.
As the power potential of the system goes up so does the need for engine improvements. More power is generated by burning more fuel; nitrous provides the extra oxygen need to "release" the power. So as the power increases somewhere down the line the fuel system will have to be upgraded.
A byproduct of nitrous oxide is increased cylinder pressures which is why the plug gap should be closed in basic kits. As power goes up so does the internal cylinder pressures so at some point the ignition system will need to be upgraded. The power expectations of the nitrous system and the performance of the particular stock ignition will determine when an upgrade is called for. Some nitrous systems may also require timing retard.
The heat generated by nitrous can have an adverse effect on the exhaust valves and in some cases the pistons, which may need to be upgraded by way of stainless-steel valves and forged pistons. As with any performance engine, big power potential requires a built bottom end."-Turbo Magazine
Also, as of waht we know...the 4th gens stock internals have been holding up to 100 shot (dry). Im sure if the 4th gens can hold it the 5th gens can too. You guys also have a much more efficient vs ours. This just means advantage you.
"For the basic 40- to 60-hp dry system no engine mods are needed. It would be wise to run premium 92-octane fuel and reduce the gap of the plugs. The fuel system should be checked to ensure it is in good working order. For some engines a colder plug may pay dividends.
As the power potential of the system goes up so does the need for engine improvements. More power is generated by burning more fuel; nitrous provides the extra oxygen need to "release" the power. So as the power increases somewhere down the line the fuel system will have to be upgraded.
A byproduct of nitrous oxide is increased cylinder pressures which is why the plug gap should be closed in basic kits. As power goes up so does the internal cylinder pressures so at some point the ignition system will need to be upgraded. The power expectations of the nitrous system and the performance of the particular stock ignition will determine when an upgrade is called for. Some nitrous systems may also require timing retard.
The heat generated by nitrous can have an adverse effect on the exhaust valves and in some cases the pistons, which may need to be upgraded by way of stainless-steel valves and forged pistons. As with any performance engine, big power potential requires a built bottom end."-Turbo Magazine
Also, as of waht we know...the 4th gens stock internals have been holding up to 100 shot (dry). Im sure if the 4th gens can hold it the 5th gens can too. You guys also have a much more efficient vs ours. This just means advantage you.
08-18-2001, 02:41 PM
#8
Originally posted by madmax2k
With this in mind, Ive heard a few folks complain about the weak fuel pump on the Max and how it doesnt like to increase pressure all that much. (ie, flow drops as pressure increase). Thus, Ive been leaning towards a wet kit to alleviate this concern.
Any thoughts?
With this in mind, Ive heard a few folks complain about the weak fuel pump on the Max and how it doesnt like to increase pressure all that much. (ie, flow drops as pressure increase). Thus, Ive been leaning towards a wet kit to alleviate this concern.
Any thoughts?
A wet kit places more strain on the fuel pump, so if you're running more than a 75 shot, you will need to install a higher flowing fuel pump or run a duel piggyback system in conjunction with the stock pump.
08-18-2001, 02:45 PM
#9
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,630
Originally posted by got rice?
Your info / thinking is all messed up.
A wet kit places more strain on the fuel pump, so if you're running more than a 75 shot, you will need to install a higher flowing fuel pump or run a duel piggyback system in conjunction with the stock pump.
Your info / thinking is all messed up.
A wet kit places more strain on the fuel pump, so if you're running more than a 75 shot, you will need to install a higher flowing fuel pump or run a duel piggyback system in conjunction with the stock pump.
08-19-2001, 06:20 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 939
Originally posted by got rice?
Your info / thinking is all messed up.
A wet kit places more strain on the fuel pump, so if you're running more than a 75 shot, you will need to install a higher flowing fuel pump or run a duel piggyback system in conjunction with the stock pump.
Your info / thinking is all messed up.
A wet kit places more strain on the fuel pump, so if you're running more than a 75 shot, you will need to install a higher flowing fuel pump or run a duel piggyback system in conjunction with the stock pump.
LOL.
My thinkingis not "messed up"! A dry kit causes an increase in fuel rail pressure which provides the addtional fuel for the nitrous through the injectors. If youknow anything about fuel pumps (or pumps is general), as the pressure goes up, the volume they are able to provide goes down. After a certain pressure is reached,the pump simply wont be able to keep up and pressure will drop. If the pressure is too high, the pump will merely reach its internal bypass pressure (set by a spring in the pump itself).
With a wet kit, the pump is not asked to increase pressure. Thus, whatever flow rate that pump can provide at the stock pressure will be delivered. The volume the pump can provide at stock pressure will be greater than what it can provide at an elevated pressure.
08-19-2001, 08:08 AM
#12
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,630
Originally posted by ohboiya
Synki!
Tkx 4 taking the time 2 type that all out ... or did u scan it? regardless ... tkx!!!
Synki!
Tkx 4 taking the time 2 type that all out ... or did u scan it? regardless ... tkx!!!
08-19-2001, 06:52 PM
#13
The dry setup does not increase the fuel pressure since the fuel supply is through your injectors, so the basis of this is injector duty cycle. Dry setup fuel pressure will remain fairly constant at wide open throttle (43.5 psi/3 bar), the difference is a higher duty cycle for the fuel supply.
The wet kit will be place more emphasis on the fuel pump moreso than a dry kit since the fuel pressure will increase to roughly 80 psi (over 3 bar) with the wet setup. The injector duty cycle should not drastically alter.
The wet kit will be place more emphasis on the fuel pump moreso than a dry kit since the fuel pressure will increase to roughly 80 psi (over 3 bar) with the wet setup. The injector duty cycle should not drastically alter.
08-20-2001, 06:23 AM
#16
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 939
Originally posted by got rice?
The dry setup does not increase the fuel pressure since the fuel supply is through your injectors, so the basis of this is injector duty cycle.
The dry setup does not increase the fuel pressure since the fuel supply is through your injectors, so the basis of this is injector duty cycle.
Dry setup fuel pressure will remain fairly constant at wide open throttle (43.5 psi/3 bar), the difference is a higher duty cycle for the fuel supply.
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