BlackSE

I'm not too worried about the warranty mainly because I've owned 3gens of max and never had any warranty work done, same with my hondas, and toyotas. I can probably get the SC for the max for about $3500 and get it installed for about another $500 at a performace shop here in KC. The place where they do the GTX stuff is here in KC and the dealer told me that for the extra $3500 it's not worth it for the badge. So far it's cheaper to keep the max and mod the hell out of it, but I want to make sure that the mods will at least work. If I still can't run low 12s after all these thousands of dollars I'll trade on the rsx and mod it or just wait for the wrx sti or evo7. Too bad those are boxy no option cars. I just want my moneys worth.

YDRSBTR

Dealer's trying to screw you. The GTX conversion should cost you no more than $2200 for the base package. Everything else after that is optional, and up to you.

But why does it have to be a GTX? The GTX adds minimal, if any, power to the GTP. It's more of an appearance and prestige modification, dude. Forget it. Buy yourself a GTP for $25K (0% interest), add $500 in pulley, intake, and exhaust mods, and turn mid 13s in full street trim, consistently. All you're out is the fact that you'd have to run higher octane and try to live with the fact that you're driving a >gasp< domestic.

AutoWorld actually rated the 3.8L in our cars one of its Ten Best. That's gotta say something to you.

QUANSUNG

i only been to the track a few times so i don't do to well there, my fastest time was 15.2 94mph spinning through 1st and 2nd,but the street doesn't have a layer of rubber on it like a trackthe gtp and gtx i raced started from about 65 or 70 and i start to walk by the end of my 3rd gear, both times i had 2 people in my car.my point is when stock and properly driven both cars are identicle as far as straight line performance goes with the max walking away after about 90mph or so.gtps are already near the performance limit while the max is just getting started.i just threw those #s out as an example of what most people would spend,400hp on a gtp lol! i chose a maxima because i wanted performance and reliability in all situations not just a 1/4 mile.a 4dr family sedan with nos and bolt ons running with a 12sec sports car sure says alot to me,what do the fatest gtp run any way () i'm in jersey

BlackSE

Well I'd never get the GTX, especially since the dealer told me it was a sham. I'm actually thinking about this but see I need to get something out of my max still, only 5weeks old with actual mileage under 4k (i checked this morning). I paid 26k for it and the nissan dealer said he'd buy it back on a 02 max for $24,900 but I doubt I'd get anything at a pontiac dealer Since I get the GMS pricing it's making it tempting however the 0% is only on the 01 models (which everybodys out of). I dunno, still gotta drive one yet.

SOLOBLAZER

You have never needed warranty work because you have never done this before. You might need the warranty if you add forced induction to your car. It is a science, not a slap on weekend project. There is a lot of testing involved to make everything work together in harmony. Besides, if you add a supercharger, the other variables like heads and compression, exhaust, timing, and PCM tuning all come into play; the same things we have to deal with. Also, 500 bucks to install it sounds a little light to me, but I can't say firsthand. I don't see how taking a similarly equipped Maxima, which is already more expensive than a GTP, and adding $4000+ for a blower is less expensive. How many in your club have the supercharger and can help you get the most out of your Maxima with it?

Also, the GTX is not a very value oriented model, if you know what I mean. It is more of a customization/rareity type deal. Some people get it for the looks, which is mostly all you get from it. It is a factory warranty covered option that adds some value to your car. For the money spent on the GTX package, you could have a low 13 second GTP easily.

Lastly, this is not a flame at all about the Maxima, but I think that the 3.0 making 222HP is pretty much "strung out" as it is. It is powerful in stock form, but I have taken some out on long trips and can see how sometimes it just "isn't there", especially with the auto. I really don't know how much more you can do to it without spending major $$. That is why Nissan had to design a new engine for the '02s. It was pretty clear when the Anniversary Edition last year only added 5HP and at a sticker price of $32,000.00 or so!!!

I am not trying to steer you in any direction, but I just want you to have as much as possible before making a decision. Good luck.

Finally, to whoever started this thread; old people and other people that don't know how to or don't want to race buy and drive GTPs and Maximas every day. If you want to race, go to the track.

Stereodude

That's interesting cause Wards said (about the 3.0L in the Max) "We’ve said it before and we’ll say it again: There isn’t a better V-6 in all of automobiledom — regardless of price."

Stereodude (who doesn't have a either a GP or a Max yet)

YDRSBTR

Quan - there are a few GTPs in the 12s. Not seriously modded, no nitrous.

How do you figure that the GTP is at its maximum? Hello? Think back. Where else have you seen a 3.8L V6 from GM...? How about a Grand National/GNX/Turbo Trans Am/T-Type? They run 11s all day with higher boost and nothing done to the engine. They have a much better transmission design than the GTP does, so they can do that. With care, and perhaps a few tranny mods, the GTP engine will take a BUTTLOAD of power, via boost, nitrous, or both, and mild work to the heads, etc. yields even more.

The GTP is by no means "close to its peak" as it comes from the factory.

BlackSE - the GTX isn't exactly a sham, as the simple rarity of it helps maintain the resale value, but it's not a performance upgrade. In the end, it's up to you what you want. But if there are any GTP owners in your area with pulley/exhaus/intake mods in your area, try to get one to give you a ride. You might be impressed. Also, as far as handling is concerned, we have a few well-designed upgrades available to us, and while weight is a major factor, with the right setup, Wider truly is Better.

YDRSBTR

Hmm. Chalk that up to the old "opinions are like @$$holes" adage.

Everyone has one.

I'm simply pointing out that for the GTP engine to make into the top ten with Auto World, it must not be as bad as some on here want to make it sound.

YDRSBTR (who owns a GP and a Toyota 4Runner)

BlackSE

"Wider truly is Better".....really cute. Well I just need to drive one. I suppose it's time for me to drive something different but like I said before, I only keep cars for like a year or two so if I don't like it I can always come back to a max. Or I can just mod my gf's max and maybe run'em both

I just hope that they can work me a deal for my max if I'm getting down to it. If not than I'm kinda stuck.

SOLOBLAZER

Get ready to cry:

All motor:
http://www.clubgp.com/cgi-asp/qtrmile.asp?txtfunc=2

NOS:
http://www.clubgp.com/cgi-asp/qtrmile.asp?txtfunc=1

These are official. And 400HP is no joke my friend.

BlackSE

Well, not that I don't doubt them but I have to be just a tad skeptic, where are the time slips?

SOLOBLAZER

It used to be that you could click on the name and a scan of the timeslips would show up. They have since gotten rid of that, but trust me, you must submit a timeslip to get on those lists. Also, that list isn't even up to date. There are many faster times that I know of that haven't been added. I'm sure that if you look up the car owner and email them, they would be happy to show you their timeslips. There is also lots of video over there to watch, usually hosted on the owner's site. Just look around for a while and you will find some.

About the engines; bothe engines have made it to somebody's top ten list, so that's all that matters. They are both excellent.

And if you get a chance, look up a member called animuL. He has a Lumina with a transplanted L67 (supercharged 3.8) engine in it. It just goes to show you good motors get around. And all you guys have to remember, that while you are looking at these times, that everyone in our club is running with an automatic transmission. I'm sure that if GM had offered stick, and the increase in speed for the GTP was the same as that of the Maxima, this discussion would have never started.

Stereodude

Yeah, except you'd have to be out of your mind to consider a 90 degree V-6 one of the best engines. A 90 degree v-6 isn't a balanced design, so you have to put balance shafts and all sorts of crap in it to compensate for poor design/planning.

You do realize that engine it the 5.0L GM V-8 that's missing 2 cylinders right? They're refined it a bunch and added balance shafts and other crap, but it doesn't compare to the Max's V-6.

Stereodude

YDRSBTR

Where the hell did you come by that notion?

http://205.147.64.51/general/v6hist.html

Was the Max's V6 on the same top ten...? Dude - this isn't a debate over which engine is better, because the fact is that they are different, and neither is better nor worse than the other.

Stereodude

Thanks for providing a URL that proved my claims. I appreciate it.

I can agree that the cars performance is similar, but I can't sit there and let you spout off about how great the v-6 is. It's an inherently unbalanced design. Just the fact that they took a v-8 and chopped off two cylinders should indicate that it has drastically inferior roots.

It's not a bad engine, it's just not as good as the 3.0L V-6. I don't understand your need to prove how good it is. When I saw the Maxima has a better V-6 that doesn't make it a bad engine, but it's no Nissan VQ 3.0L. My dad and both my uncles work for GM. I've seen, heard, driven many cars with that 3800V6. It's a much better engine than GM's 60 degree V-6, but it's not up to the quality of some of the import V-6's.

Stereodude

Generic

Sterodude, did you even read link?

Secondly, you keep sayings its not upto the quaility of a Import V6, do you have some proof of this? Mike had provided you links, and references I.E. the top ten list. Yet, all I hear from you is imports are better, where's the proof, of something that I could read that states this? Or, should I just take it from you, as the "all knowing" engine guru of the world?

Murdock

YDRSBTR

I don't "feel the need" to prove anything. The car does it on its own quite well.

I'd like to know where you're getting your information, other than "my daddy told me". That link did nothing to prove your point. If anything, it contradicts it. Here's a quote from that link, for the reading impaired:
To do the math for you, a 5.0L V8 has a displacement in the range of 347cid. 347 != 215. To make matters worse (for you), the 5.0L V8 you speak of was a cast iron block. Don't make me re-reference the above quote to make it clear that it says "all-aluminum", not cast iron.

To my mind, if an engine is already designed well, and (for its time) is deemed to be efficient enough to spawn other variations (as is also the case with the Nissan V6), then its spawn must also be pretty good. Especially when the same damn engine has been in production with only minor enhancements over the course of 40 years.

I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's a damn good engine, and I'm proving to you and others daily on the street.

But you go ahead and buy a Max, with the V6, and from the driver's seat there, tell a GN/GNX owner that his engine sucks. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to show you his never-touched-the-engine 11 second timeslip, and you can show him your, well, "perfect" V6.

No offense to actual Maxima owners on here, but this guy's daft.

Stereodude

Yeah I read the link. Did you?

Lets review

So it's based on a V8. Hmmm... That's what I said... So I didn't know it was originally the 215 V-8. It did share the tooling with the 300 for 4-5 years.

When a V-6 has the same tooling as a V-8 you have that V-8 less two cylinders. What do you think sharing tooling means? The history outlines how it was a crappy engine and they sold it to American Motors (Jeep). When the gas crisis hit GM bought the tooling back and put it in the same factory on the same bold that were still in the floor from when they moved it out. In 1977 they tried to balance it some by messing with the firing and balancing shafts.

I don't have to cite links to claim the engine is inferior. It is a 90degree V-6. That is an inherently inferior design for a V-6 engine. Anyone who knows anything about engine design knows you want a balanced engine. A 60 degree V-6 is inherently balanced. A 90 degree one is not. What part of this are you having a problem with?

Lets look at this another way. How come in 35 years GM hasn't been able to make the 3800 superior to a Nissan Engine that's far newer? That's right an inferior design.

Now lets go look at Wards and see what they have to say at V-6's. Wards is very respected in their opinions. Here's the list and their comments. http://www.wardsauto.com/default.asp?action=en You can go and read it yourself, but you'll notice that 8 of the engines are imports and only 2 are domestic. I think that confirms my comment about import engines.

I'd love to see a link to Auto World with the 3800 on the list as a top 10 engine. Last time I checked it was Ward's Auto World and there is no 3800 on the list. However the 3.0L VQ has been on it every year since Ward's has done the list.

Stereodude

Stereodude

I'm a fool? I think not. Apparently you're math isn't all that good. A 5.0L V-8 isn't 347cid. It's 305cid dork. .75 times that is 3.75L. Account for the increased bore of the 340 v-8 and viola you have a 3.8L V-8. Your own link says this. Apparently you didn't read it very closely.

Tooling has nothing to do with what the block is made out of. I can take the same tooling and make the block out of styrofoam. Doesn't mean it's not very similar to the V-8.

Good then we don't have a problem. I'm saying it's good, but the Max's engine is better and I've cited reasons why that's the case. I've never said the engine sucked.

I won't go tell the GN/GNX owner that his engine sucks cause it doesn't. I'll save that comment for people who drive cars with some of GM's other engines. I'll tell you what though, I won't have any problem telling him that my Max's engine is smoother and has more power than a natually aspirated 3800. And if he knows anything about cars he'll aggree.

Stereodude

Stereodude

Last time I checked I was talking about the 3800. That's a 3.8L 90 degree V-6. Those two engines you reference are 5.7L 90 degree V-8's. They're not the same engines. Just thought I'd clear that up for you since you seem to be confused.

As far as making unfounded remarks I've backed them up sufficiently. 8 of out 10 of the best engines aren't domestic and a large number of those 8 didn't come from Japan, so maybe my head it up Hitlers butt not Emperor Hirohito's.

Stereodude

YDRSBTR

And would you like me to break down the difference between the 300 and the 350 that you previously mentioned?
Hmm. I'm beginning to have a strong understanding of what a "tool" is, yes.
OK. It's got balance shafts. I was aware of that before, but now painfully so. You mentioned that ad nauseum. Now. So the hell what? It's got balance shafts. Does that make it bad? It makes torquey as ****. Is that what ****es you off?
Christ I wish you would; as of right now, you're just beating us to death with your unwarranted opinion.
Define "inferior" in regard to an engine.
None. Balanced, not, peanut butter and jelly on top, *****-stuck-in-the-elevator door. None of these things have anything whatsoever to do with the price of tea in China, and none of them inherently indicate an inferior engine!
Can't. I don't have my head up my *** that far yet.
No. That's not right. I'm sure the engineers at GM are not sitting around the boardroom table thinking to themselves, "hey, guys, our 3800 just isn't comparing to the Nissan 3L. We gotta do something about that, but uhh, what do we do, duhhh, I dunno..." Well, they did. They put a blower on it and the car still gets 21 mpg city/28 mpg highway (my personal experiences. I can dig up some link for you, but it don't matter), while remaining reliable. For less money. With an engine that hasn't needed to be dropped or redesigned for nearly four decades. Nissan tries new things. Great! That's better for you, and it's a well-performing engine! Better? In what sense? Oh yeah, it's balanced.
1997 is when the 3800 got the blower. That is the year that it was on the top ten. This year, it wasn't even tested. So how then is that the 3L beat it? It didn't even participate in the battle! Hello?
>clap, clap< Congrats. Yes, the 3L is a great engine. Have I denied this yet?

>crickets chirping<

SOLOBLAZER

I agree that the 3.0 is smoother and more powerful than the 3.8 N/A. There is no doubt about it.

BUT, this thread was started about the GTP with the SC 3.8, and the posters' claims of walking them came rolling in. It's all in the numbers, and I am still waiting for those. If you want a refined engine, you buy the Nissan. If you want a less expensive brute force engine, you buy the Pontiac. It's that simple.

SOLOBLAZER

Yah I thought you said Gm hasn't made any engine superior to Nissan's when you actually said the 3800. I misread it, got upset and flew off the handle. I also immediately deleted the post but I guess it was too late. Sorry about that.

Generic

FYI, after digging through past GP.net archives, I have determine the New 10 best list, replaced the olders one, here is what I did find though:


The 3800 was voted to Wards 10 best 3 years in a row, and honorable mention one year. It is also was the first V6 to be ULEV certified. Yep, that DEFINES inferior.

FYI, just because it has a balance shaft doesn't mean its a poor design. Chris, thats like saying a bridge is a poor design because it has suspension cables instead of pillars in the ground. Both serve the same purpose in different ways

Murdock

Stereodude

I was talking about the engines not the car. I'm not stupid or nieve enough to think that the GTP isn't fast. I know the GTP is fast. I don't live in denial. I happen to want a stick shift, so I'm getting a Maxima. If I was happy with a auto I'd probably get a GTP since the employee discount and all the other good stuff.

Stereodude

Stereodude

So we have 3 years vs. 7... that might warrant the inferior comment.

I never called it a poor design. I called it inferior. Balance shafts do add complexity to an engine and it's design. If you have a choice you design an engine so it doesn't need them. GM wanted a V-6 they could make cheap. Hence why it's a 90 degree V-6 they were able to save money by using the same tooling.

Back when GM's trucks had their own engines they had 60 degree V-6's and 60 degree V-8's. Why cause they started with V-6's and used the same tooling to make V-8's cause it was cheaper. They ended up with some very large V-8's that were pretty rough engines because of the imbalances.

The Nissan V-6 has more power out of a Normally Aspirated design and it is a smoother engine. That in my mind makes it a superior engine. If one is superior then the other has to be inferior. Note: Inferior doesn't = bad

Stereodude

SOLOBLAZER

You say balance shafts are complex, I say variable valve timing is complex. Look at it how you will. I will however congratulate Nissan on offering a LSD, at least for the '02 Maximas, whereas GTPs are still waiting for an aftermarket one to come along.

NJ_MAX2000

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLOLOLOL

Zooomer

I own 3 SC 3800 engines, 2 12 sec on motor GTP's and I have extensive knowledge of the engine. The GTP has a lot of problems. Most american cars do. There are many things like the transmissions that are poorly designed but let me say this. The engine is the most impressive thing I have ever taken apart in a stock car. It's built like nothing I've ever seen before. Even if you didn't know about engines there would be no doubt that the thing was built right. I pulled a motor out of my '97 GTP with 137,000 miles on it and inside it looked like new. It didn't use any oil and still made 11lbs of boost.

There is no doubt about my GTP's times. In fact I made my 12.84 pass next to another GTP that ran 12.97 and it was at a national gathering where all eyes were watching closely to see what some of the quicker guys were doing.

ccattie

Here is a video of one of the folks on the top ten list at clubgp. Click on Mike Dye runs.

http://www.cattie.com:85/video/

-Chris

PhatGuy

Just curious as to who asked what this being your first post and all?
I didn't see any Maxima related content? I think the point being is anyone wanting to know more about the refined GTP they should go to clubgp.com

Kind of funny that the guy who started the thread bringing you all over here only has "four" posts on your forum:

http://www.clubgp.com/forum/topic.a...bGP+%2D+General

Gimme a break! But since it is started we all like to have some innocent fun... Don't worry I won't be registering or posting on the club.

ccattie

PhatGuy. I am sorry if this seemed to come out of left field. I believe BlackSE asked to see a time slip. I could not find any time slips on the forum, but I happened to have some video clips that I thought I could offer up. I didn't meant to start any trouble with your group.
-Chris

PhatGuy

No worries! I think this thread is starting to get tired thats all! Scans of pieces of paper (timeslips) really don't mean much to me. The videos are cool but it would be nice to see some Maxima content. We have a member that goes up against BPU+ Supra on the highway so honestly nothing really surprises me. If for some reason I start getting intersted in GTP I realize there is clubgp.com.

EZ

ZRob

Ive got to disagree with the quality issue as far as the engines are conserned. The 3.8 ltr used in the Grand Prix (and numerous othe GM offerings) is probably one of the most durable engines on the market. It's consistently hit 200K with out major problems as long as it's maintained properly. All using low tech and proven technology.

I seriously looked at the 97 Max before I bought the GP (for my wife)and I was sold by the better looking body and the CAST IRON engine. Sure it weighs a little more , but it's proven to use less head gaskets during extreme use. Which it see's on a daily basis, my wife is a lead foot, both accelerating and braking.

But I do agree, the interior build in the Max wins, hands down.

As far as racing goes, in my opinion, unless you have timeslips, it's ALL conjecture. Get it lined up at the track where things are better controlled and you don't have to lift because of cops, traffic ect and lets see who wins. I've seen 1 time slip posted in this thread. 'Cmon Max owners, I see your cars at the track ALL the time. Lets see what your times are.

RussMaxManiac

GEEEEEEE, its old technology PUSHROD. The VQ on the max has been part of the top 10 best engines since 7-8 yrs now. Also they mention they wish every other car manufacture would learn from Nissan and make their engines as good. HINT HINT.

Generic

Grrr, I hate that statement
"Its old, cause it uses pushrods"

Did you know that the DOHC Cam design has been around for only 2 years LESS than the pushrod? And that V-tech or VVTI type technology was developed in the early 1900's but they couldn't make it feasible with the limitations on technology at that time, same thing with DOHC. Only recently have then been able to make these designs function properly for the mass market. So don't give us any of that "old technology" crap.

Murdock

PhatGuy

As for my comment "Scans of pieces of paper (timeslips) really don't mean much to me."

Well this is the internet so all it is just a scan of piece of paper. Who knows who ran those times for sure? Conditions? What car was used? What mods were on the car? If the scan is absolutely real. That is what I mean. I could take one one of your "scans" and say its mine. That is the point! Scans of pieces of paper mean jack to me. Even videos don't mean a lot since we don't know whats under the hood ie. NOS other mods etc. If you believe everything people post on the net because they attach a scan then you are easily fooled. Damn you can post all you want don't even mean you own a car!

Dave B

I'm not flaming you Zoomer, but your car was getting worked over by a group of guys at all times between runs. You got pushed to the line, you were running tiny slicks, and you had quite a few runs in the 13s and 14s due to what sounded like engine problems (if I remember right). You run 12s, but let's not lead people into believing 12s come easily nor reliably in these 3.8SCs.

I've got lots of respect for the GTP and there are lots of people running 13s and lower 14s with $500 in mods. However, it seemed like EVERY out-of-state GP'er was *****ing about how much slower they were running at the Gathering (KCIR). Yes, our track is slow, but it still doesn't take anything away from the fact that my Maxima with no gutting, street tires and wheels, was running 14.8s@95mph with 2.3 60 foots that night while there were many $500 modded GTPs running mid to high 14s@92-97mph.

And I'll say this again, the GTP, for the most part, is easily a quicker car dollar for dollar and mod for mod.

Dave

Generic

Hey Dave.

Only thing I *****ed about was Traction! I was almost 1 full second faster at KCIR, so I was happy

Murdock

Dave B

Yep, traction is always the issue out there. Crazy as it sounds, traction has improved this year compared to last. BTW, congrats on breaking into the 13s this year. That side exhaust on your car is awesome. You've got the only GTP I've heard that sounds truely good.

Dave