ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Edit: To those reading for the first time, this thread is more like a diary of what I've replaced to cure my abnormal bump steer on my stock ride. To this day (09/23/2009) it's still there and the rack (which isn't even leaking) seems to be the culprit. Probably want to jump to the end for the most up-to-date info.

I used to have major bump steer problems-with any small bump in the road, the steering wheel would go crazy and depending on the angle of the road, it was like the car would "auto-steer" itself. I got new tires which cleared it up about 65%...but I want to get rid of it.

I've done some searching and I've read the problem may be caused by bad:
- Ball joints,
- CV joints, or
- Tie-rods

In addition, I know my swaybar endlinks need replacement but I've also read those shouldn't have any effect on steering.

How can I detect that these parts are actually bad, and how hard would it be to replace them with your normal wrench/ratchet/screw-driver/etc.?

2K2Beast

bump..........

i would like to know as well

anomaly117

iTrader: (3)

its not a problem. any car will do that, its just physics and the way the wheel wants to move depending on the angle and velocity that it hits the obstacle. you cant fix it, unless youre really strong and can predict the future. then you can just hold the wheel tighter

PulsarGTS

iTrader: (6)

Its parts of the car's character.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

OK, but how can I tell if those three things I listed are bad?

I agree you may experience some no matter what, but if a bad ball joint or something else amplifies the effect, that's what I'm trying to find out & how to detect it.

I also know how much you experience it depends on the car, but my mom's Civic, I could go over a pothole without the steering wheel making the slightest movement.

PulsarGTS

iTrader: (6)

Suspension noise, or slop in the steering. Ive never had a bad CV or tie rod so I can't really comment. But I have had a bad ball joint on this car. The best thing to do is just jack the car up and look to see if the rubber is cracked on the joint. If they are real bad they will sqeak when you turn the wheel while parked or you can feel the slop when the weight tranfers on swapping turns.

Really all have a rubber boot that can crack over time and cause the grease to come out and fail. A visual inspection is the best.

SixSpeedA33

If you wanna check for play in the front end raise the front end of the car in the air. while looking at the tire, imagine it as a clock. grab the wheel at 3 O'Clock and 9 O'clock. Push/Pull from side to side and check for play. If you have play then grab front and back of either the 3 O'clock position or 9 O'clock position. if play is coming from the front of the tire (3 O'clock position) then check your ball joint and control arm. If play is coming from rear of tire (9 O'clock position) check your inner and outer tie rods. If no play start with an alignment. depending on the mileage you might be in need of some control arm bushings.

nsnrider

iTrader: (59)

-jack up car
-check for movement at 3 and 9 o'clock
If there's play, grab a hold of the inner tie rod with one hand and grab the wheel with other hand and try moving it again, if there's play again, outer tie rod is bad, if theres no play now then inner tie rod is bad.
-check for movement at 12 and 6 o'clock.
If there's play, your lower ball joint is bad, take a look at the ball joint while moving rocking the wheel back and forth.
-check for movement at 10 and 5 or 2 and 6 o'clock, if there's play, your wheel bearing might be shot.
-grab a hold of the wheel with both hands and try to pull the wheel forward, if there's play, your LCA bushings might be shot.

there are more ways to confirm that something needs replacing, but this is a start.

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

a bad lca bushing usually causes the car to pull to the side when you accelerate and the car will straighten out when you back off the gas. if new tires helped, could it be the struts are shot? also, i think that if the wheel alignment, (toe in) is off, the car tends to wander.

wyche89

man, i have the same problem.. especially under full throttle going over bumps, forget about it.. the car will definitely go off course, and it will take BOTH hands TIGHTLY gripping the steering wheel to keep the damn thing straight.. i had 2 mechanics check it out and they both couldn't find anything wrong.. and of course when 1 drove it, the car didn't exhibit the problem.. i know this is not normal, regardless of FWD, torque steer or HLSD

so your car goes straight on flat roads under full throttle, but goes off course when it hits certain bumps? and and does the problem get worse under full throttle over those same bumps?

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

That's not bumpsteer you're experiencing it's worn out suspension components better know as suspension slop! Bumpsteer is a term used on extremely lowered vehicles in which to steering linkage is outside it's designed angular parameters such as tierods on slammed vehicle that may bind at a particular angle throughout it's motoin! Please don't confuse the two!!!

fflint_18

In this case while this could be suspension slop due to wear, but I think you are just talking about plain old Torque Steer.

At full throttle the Max is famous for it. High HP and FWD. It gets worse over bumps when you lose traction momentarily, but it is always there.

When I nail mine in 2nd gear I have to hold on for the ride or I'll end up in the left lane.

And to be honest I don't mind it because it reminds me that this car has great torque and power for a reasonably priced 4 door.

Would I rather a RWD?? Sure. But I can't afford a sporty 4 door with RWD.

wyche89

it's not torque steer.. because when the road is smooth, i can go full throttle in 1st gear with no problems keeping the car straight.. from what i hear, that's thanks to my HLSD.. as soon as i hit a bump, it throws it off course.. to the point where it scares my passengers and makes them think im loosing control of the car.. it pisses me off man

wyche89

so which suspension components is it and how do we fix it? new struts didnt help by the way.. lol

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

I'll try you guys' suggestions (wheel pulling & visual inspection). My apologies if I'm not using the correct terminology. All I know is that if the road isn't flat, the car will steer itself where it wants to go. I don't care about the behavior at WOT, I'm concerned about the behavior when just driving normally on a straight road.

FWIW, I've gotten two alignments within one month...they don't help. Oddly enough, the numbers don't even match up (maybe because I got them done at two different shops). Just got my tires rebalanced too though I bought them 2 weeks ago (tech said the balance was all off).

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

That to me sounds like your tires are bad, as in tire belts have shifted or are coming loose! Run your hand over the tires to feel any waves or lumps. Rotate the fronts to the back and the backs to the front and test drive the car for a week or so! This belt thing blistered my brain as a youngster buying a used low mileage vehicle and everything checked and rechecked good, and the whole time it was the belts shifting around inside the tire. It would follow lines, grooves like it had a independent guidance system and would pretty much try to pull the steering wheel out of my hands! Good luck, I'm sure this maybe your problem from your description.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Yes that explains my problem but the thing is I just got brand new tires. Would bad endlinks cause this?

I did the 3/9 o'clock thing...when I apply pressure, I can see the coil/strut twisting, I guess there is play? Bad struts?

Car has 125k miles and everything is probably still OEM, I only got the car 2k miles ago.

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

3 and 9o'clock are basically checking your inner and outer tierods and possible play in the wheel hub bearing....the 6 and 12 o'clock are checking your lower ball joints or the wheel bearings as well...When you said you could see the coil spring twisting what exactly did you mean? The coil spring is moving loosely on the strut?

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

For example, pushing in at the front of the wheel (3 o'clock) and pulling at the rear (9 o'clock), I could see the coil turning inwards. It could be that it's just that whole area, I guess the horizontal nature of the coils maybe made it more prevalent. I'll take a closer look & give a better description later on today.

Question: if I have the front wheels off the ground, key is in the on-position so steering lock isn't enabled, should I be able to "steer" by turning the wheels?

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

they're turning/moving with the strut! what's wrong with that?

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

I was looking at this video: How Strut Mounts Cause Tire Blowouts. At about 30 seconds he mentions how the strut mounts keep the wheel in parallel with the rest of the vehicle.

I notice that when I jack up a side of the car that it seems as if once the tire is off the ground, it goes flush with the side of the car; almost as if when it was on the ground, there was some negative camber & after it's off the ground camber is 0. Is this normal, 'cause to me it sounds like what he describes in the video above where it could be a bad strut mount.

I also noticed that there is some rubber freely sitting on the strut; seems like it should be part of the top of the strut but is just sitting there, like it was cut or something. Is that normal?

Lastly, I've been getting a major clunk lately on the front right side of the car. The thing is, while parked, I have to press down on the left side of the car to get it. If I press down on the left side, the clunk doesn't happen until I release pressure. I also notice the sound when I shift gears, even on a flat road. I recently replaced the right-side sway bar end link with the Moog-branded link, but left the left-side stock (cause I couldn't get it off). Could this have anything to do with it?

A shop also told me my inner tie rods had play, though the 3/9, 6/12 oclock tests show otherwise; how could they detect play in the inners?

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I can explain better...when I do the bounce test on above a strut (press down on the car repetitively), my wheel moves in and out...like the camber is being adjusted. So basically the camber of the wheel isn't stable. That ring a bell on what my problem could be?

PS: I just noticed squeaks also...so I think the struts really need replacement now.

BEJAY1

iTrader: (19)

Unstable camber might be your strut mounts. When looking at the struts from the top are both of them centered in the mounts? Looking around the inside edges does all the rubber appear solid and in good shape?

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

Take it to a qualified mechanic, please.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Post 21 - I noticed there is some rubber freely sitting on the strut; seems like it should be part of the top of the strut but is just sitting there, like it was cut or something.

I did a quick google & the explanation in the center column completely explains what I experience.


I'm just asking a question - I never said that I didn't go or that I planned to fix stuff on my own. No shop I've went to has pointed out anything that I didn't already know.

PS: I grabbed the lifetime alignment service at Firestone. Got an alignment one day, and just for kicks when to a different location 3 days later, and my toe was out again.

2slow

iTrader: (6)

I didn't read most of the thread, but read this: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=47.

The ruts or bumps which a car may follow can be easily missed (poor visual identification.)

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for that link, great info. It lists three suspension parts that have a direct influence:
- shock absorber mounts
- suspension bushings
- ball joints

Hope it's not ball joints cause then I'd need to do the whole LCA which gets me into more end-link mess.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

If I bought a set of KYB GR-2 struts/shocks and two Monroe strut mounting kits, will this be all I need to swap out the struts & mounts?

fflint_18

Not sure if you need the strut bellows too. They are listed as a seperate part so you may want to look into this. Not sure if teh KYB's come with them.

Also, I would go with Moog instead of Monroe for the strut mounts and bellows.

I think it's a great idea to change them out, but I don't think this is going to solve your problem. I think it is more likely something in the steering or tires.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

:sigh:

Not sure what strut bellows are; what purpose do they serve? To me it really sounds like strut mounts based on the more I read about the effects of bad ones.

Regardless, last night I ordered new:
- KYB GR2 struts/shocks (all 4)
- Monroe strut mounts (4)
- Moog Inner tie rod ends (2)
- Moog Outer tie rod ends (2)
- Moog stabilizer bar bushings (2)
- and some belts (2)

...to the tune of about $600. Car has about 128k and is still on originals of the above-stated parts.

My tires are only about 3 months old.

My plan:
1) change swaybar end-links myself
2) change the stabilizer bar LCA bushings myself
3) have shop install struts/strut mounts/inner tie rods
4) install outer tie rods myself
....go to Firestone & get a "free" alignment (bought the lifetime alignment)
5) install belts myself

Ball joints might need replacement and if so looks like I'm gonna need new LCAs.

This stuff is hurting my pockets but I can't take the risk...my job requires me to drive 50 miles a day and if something were to fail and leave me without my car, I'd be totally SOL.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Actually I think I'll do all of these myself...seems simple, just time-consuming. Once I get my struts & tie rods on, I know my alignment is gonna be crazy off.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Just happened to do the wheel shake test again...and it's a given now; my driver's side inner tie rod is bad. I could move the wheel in & out at 9 & 3; but there was no visible play coming from the outer tie rod....was further up the line.

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Here is the rubber that I was talking about:

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Okay, well after
1) new tires
2) new inner tie rods
3) new outer tie rods
4) an alignment
5) new swaybar endlinks
6) new LCA swaybar bushings

...I still have the problem. Number 7 on the list is putting on my struts & mounts.

How do you know when it's time for a new steering rack? Even when I have the front of the car up in the air, I can turn the wheels (toe-wise) with my bare hands...shouldn't the rack resist steering adjustment if it didn't come from the steering wheel?

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

1) new tires
2) new inner tie rods
3) new outer tie rods
4) MULTIPLE alignments
5) new swaybar endlinks
6) new LCA swaybar bushings
7) new KYB GR2 struts + Monroe strut mounts

Same problem...running out of things to replace...
If ball joints / control arms don't fix it....what the heck else can it be other than a bad rack?

I'm also proud that I did all of the jobs that I intended on having a shop do, all by my myself.

RLStrick756

Try front and rear strut tower bars and a rear sway bar to see if those help at all?

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

To me, that's like applying a band-aid. I feel I shouldn't have to "mod" to achieve something that the car most-likely had when it was first made.

I just rotated my tires today (fronts went directly back and backs went to opposite side fronts) and got them balanced & inspected for tread separation...the report was that wear was pretty even, no tread separation in any, and rear right wheel needed more weight. But of course the drive is still the same:
- veers left most of the time, but sometimes to the right (even on the similar roads crowned the same way).
- steering is at the complete mercy of 'the road'

After researching each term, I think I'm experiencing:
- bump steer: auto steering via "bumps"
- roll steer: auto steering under tight roll conditions
- and tramlining: auto steering via longitudinal imperfections in road

For example,
- bump steer: go over a speed bump
- roll steer: pass a semi on the highway (the wind makes the chassis roll)
- tramline: drive through an under-construction road section where lanes have been shifted & you're actually driving on the shoulder if it were not a construction zone.

Maybe it's because my old car was a dbl wish bone suspension vs. mcpherson but to put it simply, it makes driving less enjoyable and long trips fatiguing when you always need to correct the steering or feel like you don't have control.

The more I read, the more I hear people say it's just your tires, but dang I can't afford to change tires like changing my socks. My tires are "Kumho Ecsta ASX" if that means anything to any one. All I need is one person with those tires to say they don't experience tramlining to make me completely sure that it's not tires.

Plan of action:

- Re-install swaybar end-links. Read that having the swaybar too stiff (end-links too tight) = aggressive = more roll steering. I have to somehow install them with the suspension loaded so that they're not overly tightened.

- Get the opinion of a body shop to see if they can spot anything that looks bent.

- New control arms

After that....I'm done. No way I'm gonna get new tires or a new steering rack if it's the true culprit. If it's not fixed, I give up...school starts in a couple weeks and won't have time on top of my leaking oil & overheating issues.

wyche89

good luck man.. let us know how it turns out cause i have the same problem and it's making me mad

ridinwitha35

iTrader: (1)

Just my luck. All of a sudden my car sounds like it's really struggling power-wise. I now notice a drone that coincides with engine RPM. Sounds like it's coming from the muffler which makes me think...exhaust leak. This car really hates me!

fessa

I have these tires, don't have any issues with them.