Are all MOOG parts upgrades?
11-06-2009, 10:51 AM
#1
Are all MOOG parts upgrades?
There are a couple of current threads here discussing the FSB (front sway bar) end-links. Nelsito65 went and posted this great picture of the OEM end-link, side-by-side with the MOOG part. The differences are obvious.
That got me thinking about the MOOG Ball Joints and Tie-rod ends. I'm really only planning on replacing them when or if they ever fail. But now that I see this end-link, I'm wondering if the MOOG ball joints and tie-rod ends are "upgrades".
Anybody with opinions on that? Pictures, maybe?
That got me thinking about the MOOG Ball Joints and Tie-rod ends. I'm really only planning on replacing them when or if they ever fail. But now that I see this end-link, I'm wondering if the MOOG ball joints and tie-rod ends are "upgrades".
Anybody with opinions on that? Pictures, maybe?
Last edited by Rochester; 11-06-2009 at 11:04 AM.
11-06-2009, 08:29 PM
#4
11-06-2009, 09:50 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,142
The moog suspension joints are a good replacement whenever the existing ones fail.
However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational.
One must note that despite the larger rod being used on the sway bar endlinks, what matters is the ball joint itself. I have seen MOOG joints becoming loose after a couple years of use. The serviceable nature of the MOOG suspension joints allow the masking of the creaking noise, which is an indication of worn out joints.
I have been using the 200,000 miles factory sway bar endlinks on my 240sx with Tanabe sway bars. They were fine and really tight. Those parts rarely wear out.
Truthfully, once in a while I would read about ball joint failure being reported on different forums. However, as a mechanic I have never actually replaced any ball joints for my customers. The only times I saw ball joints failure were when the owner hit a curb, which required changing out the entire control arms. Ball joints themselves, I have never had to replace any.
One way to check when your ball joints are in need of replacement is by shaking the control arm or spindles while the car is suspended with wheels removed. If there is any wiggle room from the ball joints, that is a sign of ball joint failure.
However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational.
One must note that despite the larger rod being used on the sway bar endlinks, what matters is the ball joint itself. I have seen MOOG joints becoming loose after a couple years of use. The serviceable nature of the MOOG suspension joints allow the masking of the creaking noise, which is an indication of worn out joints.
I have been using the 200,000 miles factory sway bar endlinks on my 240sx with Tanabe sway bars. They were fine and really tight. Those parts rarely wear out.
Truthfully, once in a while I would read about ball joint failure being reported on different forums. However, as a mechanic I have never actually replaced any ball joints for my customers. The only times I saw ball joints failure were when the owner hit a curb, which required changing out the entire control arms. Ball joints themselves, I have never had to replace any.
One way to check when your ball joints are in need of replacement is by shaking the control arm or spindles while the car is suspended with wheels removed. If there is any wiggle room from the ball joints, that is a sign of ball joint failure.
Last edited by LoveSick; 11-06-2009 at 09:52 PM.
11-07-2009, 05:34 AM
#7
I can't speak for Moog ball joints but the tie rods/tie rod ends didn't visually strike me as an upgrade. Mechanically, it might be a different story, because as mentioned the actual joints are the most important part.
11-07-2009, 06:56 AM
#8
The moog suspension joints are a good replacement whenever the existing ones fail.
However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational.
One must note that despite the larger rod being used on the sway bar endlinks, what matters is the ball joint itself. I have seen MOOG joints becoming loose after a couple years of use. The serviceable nature of the MOOG suspension joints allow the masking of the creaking noise, which is an indication of worn out joints.
I have been using the 200,000 miles factory sway bar endlinks on my 240sx with Tanabe sway bars. They were fine and really tight. Those parts rarely wear out.
Truthfully, once in a while I would read about ball joint failure being reported on different forums. However, as a mechanic I have never actually replaced any ball joints for my customers. The only times I saw ball joints failure were when the owner hit a curb, which required changing out the entire control arms. Ball joints themselves, I have never had to replace any.
One way to check when your ball joints are in need of replacement is by shaking the control arm or spindles while the car is suspended with wheels removed. If there is any wiggle room from the ball joints, that is a sign of ball joint failure.
However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational.
One must note that despite the larger rod being used on the sway bar endlinks, what matters is the ball joint itself. I have seen MOOG joints becoming loose after a couple years of use. The serviceable nature of the MOOG suspension joints allow the masking of the creaking noise, which is an indication of worn out joints.
I have been using the 200,000 miles factory sway bar endlinks on my 240sx with Tanabe sway bars. They were fine and really tight. Those parts rarely wear out.
Truthfully, once in a while I would read about ball joint failure being reported on different forums. However, as a mechanic I have never actually replaced any ball joints for my customers. The only times I saw ball joints failure were when the owner hit a curb, which required changing out the entire control arms. Ball joints themselves, I have never had to replace any.
One way to check when your ball joints are in need of replacement is by shaking the control arm or spindles while the car is suspended with wheels removed. If there is any wiggle room from the ball joints, that is a sign of ball joint failure.
Perhaps my original plan is best: before having my suspension mods installed in the spring, step in for a quick lift and have my mechanic analyze the ball-joints and tie-rod ends first.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
MoncefA33, this is where you chime in with, "That's what she said."
11-07-2009, 08:13 AM
#9
Perhaps my original plan is best: before having my suspension mods installed in the spring, step in for a quick lift and have my mechanic analyze the ball-joints and tie-rod ends first.
The inspection will be done prior to your alignement. I needed a ball joint on my car.
They look like a stronger design to me, why not to you? I assumed the thicker bar in the end-link meant a stronger, more solid connection. Not so, by your reasoning.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
The inspection will be done prior to your alignement. I needed a ball joint on my car.
They look like a stronger design to me, why not to you? I assumed the thicker bar in the end-link meant a stronger, more solid connection. Not so, by your reasoning.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
The end links are strictly in tension and compression. If the stockers don't deflect, then thicker is meaningless....except for marketing.
11-07-2009, 04:04 PM
#10
That was a great response. Exactly the kind of insight that's helpful for people evaluating replacement parts.
Perhaps my original plan is best: before having my suspension mods installed in the spring, step in for a quick lift and have my mechanic analyze the ball-joints and tie-rod ends first.
Not helpful, but still (a little) entertaining.
They look like a stronger design to me, why not to you? I assumed the thicker bar in the end-link meant a stronger, more solid connection. Not so, by your reasoning.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
MoncefA33, this is where you chime in with, "That's what she said."
Perhaps my original plan is best: before having my suspension mods installed in the spring, step in for a quick lift and have my mechanic analyze the ball-joints and tie-rod ends first.
Not helpful, but still (a little) entertaining.
They look like a stronger design to me, why not to you? I assumed the thicker bar in the end-link meant a stronger, more solid connection. Not so, by your reasoning.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
MoncefA33, this is where you chime in with, "That's what she said."
Thanks Rochester.
11-07-2009, 04:53 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,142
11-07-2009, 05:04 PM
#12
11-08-2009, 07:25 AM
#13
I agree with LoveSick who summed it up perfectly:
"However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational."
They're not an UPGRADE per say, but a nice improvement. I hardly notice a difference in handling or driveability between OEM and Moog, but when replacing them, for the price and Moog being known for their suspension parts, it's more of a "why not.."
"However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational."
They're not an UPGRADE per say, but a nice improvement. I hardly notice a difference in handling or driveability between OEM and Moog, but when replacing them, for the price and Moog being known for their suspension parts, it's more of a "why not.."
11-08-2009, 08:17 AM
#14
I agree with LoveSick who summed it up perfectly:
"However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational."
They're not an UPGRADE per say, but a nice improvement. I hardly notice a difference in handling or driveability between OEM and Moog, but when replacing them, for the price and Moog being known for their suspension parts, it's more of a "why not.."
"However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational."
They're not an UPGRADE per say, but a nice improvement. I hardly notice a difference in handling or driveability between OEM and Moog, but when replacing them, for the price and Moog being known for their suspension parts, it's more of a "why not.."
So taking that one step further, (and hopefully not putting words in your mouth), a philosophy of "why not" doesn't apply to ball joints and tie-rod ends because they are relatively expensive when compared to $15 MOOG end-links.
You've crossed paths with me on this issue a few times, so I apologize for seeming redundant. I've been trying to lock down a reasonable and practical approach to these parts, and got side-tracked seeing the side-by-side picture of the end-links. I think that summary is:
(1) If you're already "down there" with suspension and/or brake work, replace the end-links with MOOG parts because they're inexpensive and good-as or better than OEM. (Including ES sway bar bushings.)
(2) Replace the ball-joints and tie-rod ends with MOOG parts when they fail.
Yes?
(2) Replace the ball-joints and tie-rod ends with MOOG parts when they fail.
11-08-2009, 08:37 AM
#15
Option #2, but apply that to end links as well. No point in replacing anything before they fail. The end link job is easy enough to do on its own. And the difference in handling is marginal - if any at all.
11-08-2009, 08:41 AM
#16
i've been using MOOG parts for many years now, and recommend them to all my customers over other aftermarket parts that are available on the market.
My main reasons for MOOG parts over other aftermarket counterparts are:
1. better in design
2. greesable
3. good warranty
4. priced well compared to oem
5. descent fit and finish
This goes true for all of their suspension parts, and I've done all of them, inner/outer tie rods, ball joints, etc.
When you are trying to compare to OEM, then I would not necessarily consider these an upgrade per functionality as I like the fit and finish of most OEM products, the longevity of OEM is adequate, the most common different from OEm parts is the price as these tend to be pricier than MOOG parts. Every once in a while you can find a descent price on OEM suspension parts that are comparable to aftermarket, but in general they are much more.
Hope this info helps.
My main reasons for MOOG parts over other aftermarket counterparts are:
1. better in design
2. greesable
3. good warranty
4. priced well compared to oem
5. descent fit and finish
This goes true for all of their suspension parts, and I've done all of them, inner/outer tie rods, ball joints, etc.
When you are trying to compare to OEM, then I would not necessarily consider these an upgrade per functionality as I like the fit and finish of most OEM products, the longevity of OEM is adequate, the most common different from OEm parts is the price as these tend to be pricier than MOOG parts. Every once in a while you can find a descent price on OEM suspension parts that are comparable to aftermarket, but in general they are much more.
Hope this info helps.
11-08-2009, 08:44 AM
#17
Most of the time when it comes to end links, it's the annoying clattering noise you get over uneven surfaces over handling, reason why you'd replace the end links unless they're bad to a point that they pop out of their joints or break, then its a handling issue on top of the clunking noise.
11-08-2009, 08:57 AM
#18
Glad this thread was posted, as I'm thinking my TRE's might be worn. I ordered new MOOG TRE's from Advance Auto. They set me back $81+change, but haven't put them on yet. Don't know if I'll get around to putting them on before I leave for my business trip to be able to give an opinion on better or not. Would still like to hear what everybody elses opinions are.
11-08-2009, 09:24 AM
#19
I agree.
Most of the time when it comes to end links, it's the annoying clattering noise you get over uneven surfaces over handling, reason why you'd replace the end links unless they're bad to a point that they pop out of their joints or break, then its a handling issue on top of the clunking noise.
Most of the time when it comes to end links, it's the annoying clattering noise you get over uneven surfaces over handling, reason why you'd replace the end links unless they're bad to a point that they pop out of their joints or break, then its a handling issue on top of the clunking noise.
I'm going to cool my jets on end-links, tie-rod ends, and ball-joints. In March, I'll put it up on the lift and go over this stuff with my mechanic, to assess the situation before planned April mods. (By the way, that's the advice of my mechanic, too... replace these things only when they break.)
I'm done. I've got the advice I needed, just not necessarily the advice I wanted. Thanks, guys.
11-08-2009, 10:06 AM
#22
Plugs are less than 2 years old; Iridium Tips. I had one coil replaced 18 months ago, the others are original equipment. Codes? Don't know, but the CEL hasn't started yet.
What sucks is I just had the spacers installed, which would have been nice timing to coincide with bad coils. Not that you can plan that crap.
See, this speaks right to the heart of things with this thread: spending money on upgrades is fun. Spending money on repairs is decidedly not fun.
Coils are expensive. Oh boy.
What sucks is I just had the spacers installed, which would have been nice timing to coincide with bad coils. Not that you can plan that crap.
See, this speaks right to the heart of things with this thread: spending money on upgrades is fun. Spending money on repairs is decidedly not fun.Coils are expensive. Oh boy.
Last edited by Rochester; 11-08-2009 at 10:31 AM.
11-09-2009, 08:29 AM
#24
Very pleased it was in front. 1-3-5 are a PITA.
I'm out $130 for parts and labor/diagnosis, and a half-day of work, but I got it fixed ASAP and the car runs good again. What can I say... cars are expensive.
11-09-2009, 09:23 AM
#25
All i have left to change out are the MOOG ball joints up front. I have replaced endlinks, inner and outer ties, & strut mounts with moog parts. Each part, except for the strut mounts, have been noticably meatier than the stock counterpart. At 130k, all of these parts were pretty worn and could be moved freely by hand with no force. Everything except the strut mounts NEEDED to be replaced. I am in the process of replacing all the bushings up front with ES hoping I will acheive the suspension/steering we all long for.
Also, for those going to advanced for parts, dont forget about the $10 off $25 coupons floating around here...
Also, for those going to advanced for parts, dont forget about the $10 off $25 coupons floating around here...
01-30-2010, 08:45 AM
#26
Regarding MOOG replacement parts, one opinion that seems to have universal consensus here is that MOOG Front Strut Mounts are preferable over OEM, and the OEM mounts should be swapped out when replacing the struts.
I'm having Tokico HP Blues installed in the Spring, as well as new brakes, so I've been collecting parts over the winter. The Strut Mounts arrived the other day. These be them:
I'm having Tokico HP Blues installed in the Spring, as well as new brakes, so I've been collecting parts over the winter. The Strut Mounts arrived the other day. These be them:
01-30-2010, 11:32 AM
#27
Nice! If I can ask where you bought yours? I was going to go with KYB but also heard good things about MOOG. I'm also replacing shocks/struts within the week.
Last edited by Tippy Toes; 01-30-2010 at 11:45 AM.
01-30-2010, 11:35 AM
#28
All i have left to change out are the MOOG ball joints up front. I have replaced endlinks, inner and outer ties, & strut mounts with moog parts. Each part, except for the strut mounts, have been noticably meatier than the stock counterpart. At 130k, all of these parts were pretty worn and could be moved freely by hand with no force. Everything except the strut mounts NEEDED to be replaced. I am in the process of replacing all the bushings up front with ES hoping I will acheive the suspension/steering we all long for.
Also, for those going to advanced for parts, dont forget about the $10 off $25 coupons floating around here...
Also, for those going to advanced for parts, dont forget about the $10 off $25 coupons floating around here...
I'm on a budget..where is the $10 off $25 and for what parts are you referring too? (Tight budget obv)
01-30-2010, 12:13 PM
#30
Ah this is my next project to get done MOOG ball joints and ES control arm bushings, and sway bar endlinks. After spending since the spring of last year slammed on S-Tech's and 180,000km on the car now the old OEM parts are really showing there wear ... front end has become lose and one can really feel the gusting broad side winds at moderate speeds. Definitely work needing to be done sooner than later.
01-30-2010, 02:02 PM
#31
This page is a smorgasbord of front-end parts from ES and MOOG.
I think the prices are fair, although you could probably shave $5 to $10 elsewhere if you know where to go. That kind of holds true for anything online. I've also read lots of good feedback about prices at RockAuto.com.
Not sure where I'm buying the HP's from next month. Some retailer on eBay, most likely.
01-30-2010, 02:54 PM
#32
You may want to check with a few of the guys that bought up a quantity of the HP's back in the fall when one of the shops was clearing the, perhaps one may still have a set or two to sell. I picked up a set last fall and just did my front rotors and pads a few weeks ago.
01-30-2010, 03:20 PM
#33
You may want to check with a few of the guys that bought up a quantity of the HP's back in the fall when one of the shops was clearing the, perhaps one may still have a set or two to sell. I picked up a set last fall and just did my front rotors and pads a few weeks ago.
I'm either buying the HP's in mid-February, or a couple new tires... and then the other in mid-March. And since I'm convinced these Eagle F1's are hotness, the total cost is the same either way. Expensive tires. Worth it, though.
01-30-2010, 03:48 PM
#35
Ah, now I get it. You're confusing "HP" with "HPS". The HPS Pads I already have, sitting right here in my office on top of a new set of Centric Rotors. I bought my fronts when that PepBoys special hit last fall.
When I said "HP", I meant Tokico HP Blues. Struts.
~john
When I said "HP", I meant Tokico HP Blues. Struts.
~john
01-30-2010, 06:03 PM
#37
So I decided against the coilovers and the Iluminas because of how little longer I'll be driving the car, advice from my mechanic, cost, age of the car, and age of the driver (me). Everything I read about the Blues is that they're a softer ride than the stock SE over bumps and low speeds, but stiffer and more stable at aggressive driving. That's exactly what I want in a suspension, so I went with the Blues.
As to the height adjustable nature of the Iluminas... don't care about lowering the car. I know it matters to a lot of people on the Org, but it's just not something I care about.
We all make mod decisions based on our own values and priorities. And it's OK when they're different from someone else... as long as it doesn't involve 22" chrome rims. That's just wrong.
Last edited by Rochester; 01-30-2010 at 06:12 PM.
02-01-2010, 08:53 AM
#38
We all make mod decisions based on our own values and priorities. And it's OK when they're different from someone else... as long as it doesn't involve 22" chrome rims. That's just wrong.
So question - are the Moog strut mounts worth the extra $5 each over the KYB parts? If so, why?
02-01-2010, 09:41 AM
#39
That said, let me rephrase my position: If I had adjustable dampening, I'd probably set it once and forget about it. Also, I like a cushy ride over bumps and city driving, but want better handling at speed. I think those two points add up to HP blues. Hope I'm right.
Beats me. Doesn't look like there's that much engineering in the mounts to matter. I'm just going on my interpretation of consensus, and advice from mechanics (like djfrestyl).