3.0 headers/ y-pipe on a 3.5?
01-24-2010, 05:58 PM
#82
01-24-2010, 05:58 PM
#83
Point being both have their pros and cons. For cattman it's the price, for obx it's the quality, which even though not cattman quality, is still pretty good if you get the right set that's made for your car. It's going to come down to money for most people. Hell, If I could have gotten cattman without breaking my budget like I said before, I would have pulled the trigger asap. However for people who can not afford the money, Obx is still one hell of a good choice.
01-24-2010, 05:59 PM
#84
01-24-2010, 06:01 PM
#85
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Did you measure or do they just look lined up fine? Just a tiny overhang goes a long way, you'd need to measure using something like machinist's dye and a paper filter to really tell. If it was far enough out of whack to see just looking at it, the car would barely run.
I'd guess that they got the spacing right and they line up well, though. It's very easy to take a gasket and make a template out of it for the flanges.
I'd guess that they got the spacing right and they line up well, though. It's very easy to take a gasket and make a template out of it for the flanges.
01-24-2010, 06:03 PM
#86
Did you measure or do they just look lined up fine? Just a tiny overhang goes a long way, you'd need to measure using something like machinist's dye and a paper filter to really tell. If it was far enough out of whack to see just looking at it, the car would barely run.
I'd guess that they got the spacing right and they line up well, though. It's very easy to take a gasket and make a template out of it for the flanges.
I'd guess that they got the spacing right and they line up well, though. It's very easy to take a gasket and make a template out of it for the flanges.
Fitment in a fundamental sense, ie having it line up with the studs/flanges is not a hard task for a company to master. Not sure why Dave is gonna try and hate on that.
01-24-2010, 06:05 PM
#87
How do you know they line up, you can't see that unless they are off the car that exhaust ports on the head make a clean transition into the exhaust header.
just cause it bolts up doesn't mean it lines perfectly up to the exhaust port
Just making a point. You guys can buy what you want, just making a point to say that.
just cause it bolts up doesn't mean it lines perfectly up to the exhaust port
Just making a point. You guys can buy what you want, just making a point to say that.
Last edited by DrunkieTheBear; 01-24-2010 at 06:08 PM.
01-24-2010, 06:11 PM
#89
I'm gonna jump in here and say I agree that there are alot of difference between the OBX and Cattman including part throttle driveability, and WOT....I believe that Cattman headers provide better throttle response than the OBX since I drove a similarly equipped 5.5th Gen with the same exact Intake system, (OBX)with a stock cat, catback; and the (Cattman) with a hi flow cat and Cattman bpipe and Oem rear muffler. I noticed my Cattman headers were more crisp in throttle response and seemed to have more available torque...that my observation...
01-24-2010, 06:13 PM
#91
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I believe the primary piping is the same diameter as cattman uses. The Y-pipe is where the disparity in piping diameter was.
I'll have to loosely agree with the others, though. They probably just used a gasket to make the flanges then based piping diameter off of that, so it should be decent. It's not likely they're made that badly. Sure cheap collectors here, small flex section there, but major design flaws were probably not included.
I'll have to loosely agree with the others, though. They probably just used a gasket to make the flanges then based piping diameter off of that, so it should be decent. It's not likely they're made that badly. Sure cheap collectors here, small flex section there, but major design flaws were probably not included.
01-24-2010, 06:33 PM
#93
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Oh well, at least we get to be different. My 12-13 second Maxima gathers much bigger crowds in the staging lanes trying to peak under my hood than the 9-second F-body sitting next to me just because of the WTF factor.
01-24-2010, 06:41 PM
#94
I've been asking myself that more and more lately. Less so the sedan thing, and more so the FWD and limited potential part. Although these cars can easily achieve deep 12s on a low budget, it's still a FWD sedan at the end of the day.
Oh well, at least we get to be different. My 12-13 second Maxima gathers much bigger crowds in the staging lanes trying to peak under my hood than the 9-second F-body sitting next to me just because of the WTF factor.
Oh well, at least we get to be different. My 12-13 second Maxima gathers much bigger crowds in the staging lanes trying to peak under my hood than the 9-second F-body sitting next to me just because of the WTF factor.
01-24-2010, 06:45 PM
#95
So I'm a child because I pointed out key differences between the 2 header designs in order to help OP with his choice? I am not bragging about cattman or calling OBX crap, seriously read back over my posts and get your head out of your @ss.
I don't even have 10 power mods in the first place...
I don't even have 10 power mods in the first place...
again my comments was clear as day as to whome they were directed towards, if Jime, aaron92SE, or any boosted max wants to run thats cool, its not like ive never lost a race in my life, nor do i care if i loose to them, my call out was straight forward and doesnt need to be repeated, now what moron couldnt get the what i was saying in my call out.......... maxima.org is sofa-kingdom lol
01-24-2010, 06:49 PM
#96
dude you've used the same joke twice and nobody laughed STFU
again my comments was clear as day as to whome they were directed towards, if Jime, aaron92SE, or any boosted max wants to run thats cool, its not like ive never lost a race in my life, nor do i care if i loose to them, my call out was straight forward and doesnt need to be repeated, now what moron couldnt get the what i was saying in my call out.......... maxima.org is sofa-kingdom lol
again my comments was clear as day as to whome they were directed towards, if Jime, aaron92SE, or any boosted max wants to run thats cool, its not like ive never lost a race in my life, nor do i care if i loose to them, my call out was straight forward and doesnt need to be repeated, now what moron couldnt get the what i was saying in my call out.......... maxima.org is sofa-kingdom lol
my money is on the 6spd. stock for stock and mod for mod they are proven faster. thats just fact, not sure on ur skillz at the track but u seem to run the norm in times, so u will be counting on driver error just sayin.....
01-24-2010, 06:49 PM
#97
Well... I'll be the first to say... I have obx headers... And I love them. Okay, sweeeeeetttt. I'd LOVE cattman too. Shoot. I love beeting g35's and 350z's too. Fwd, eh not soo much. How bout we all just put all this behind us and never ever bring up another headers thread EVER on the org eh??? New sticky, NO MORE HEADER THREADS!
01-24-2010, 06:51 PM
#98
Well... I'll be the first to say... I have obx headers... And I love them. Okay, sweeeeeetttt. I'd LOVE cattman too. Shoot. I love beeting g35's and 350z's too. Fwd, eh not soo much. How bout we all just put all this behind us and never ever bring up another headers thread EVER on the org eh??? New sticky, NO MORE HEADER THREADS!
01-24-2010, 06:53 PM
#99
How do you know they line up, you can't see that unless they are off the car that exhaust ports on the head make a clean transition into the exhaust header.
just cause it bolts up doesn't mean it lines perfectly up to the exhaust port
Just making a point. You guys can buy what you want, just making a point to say that.
just cause it bolts up doesn't mean it lines perfectly up to the exhaust port
Just making a point. You guys can buy what you want, just making a point to say that.
With that post Grand hustle is my new best friend
01-24-2010, 07:00 PM
#101
01-24-2010, 07:02 PM
#102
I really don't see why this is even worth discussion. 
It seems like people keep making up BS claims about how crappy the OBX headers are just to justify them spending $400 more for a set of Cattman headers. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just the thread in general.
There has been no back to back dyno with the same car and same dyno comparing both types of headers so any speculation on power gain discrepancies is purely nonsense.
I'm sure the Cattman design had more R&D, but just because something costs more doesn't mean it performs any better, or that the extra cost is worth the small gain in performance.
DatDude20 put down something like 247whp with his OBX headers. I'm sure there are some people with Cattman headers who put down lower numbers, and some who put down higher numbers. Any difference between OBX and Cattman headers is well within the margin of error for the dyno itself anyway...you see?
And people need to stop hating on the fact that the OBX are made in China. I've had my headers on for 8 months now and as of today they have no surface rust at all, just some discoloration and I live in New Jersey, so they have been exposed to road salt all winter.
The material is REAL stainless steel and it is thick enough to be a PITA to drill through for an o2 bung. (Ask me how I know)
And unless anyone has made measurements of the pipe thickness with a micrometer, no one can say the Cattman's are any thicker. (I wouldn't be surprised if they were though)
Maybe the Cattman's are marginally thicker so they will last longer, but I don't see how it matters.
Say the Cattman's last 5 years and the OBX last 3 years.
It would still be cheaper to buy the OBX headers because I could buy two sets that would last a total of 6 years. This would give me one more year than the Cattman's and still cost less. I realize this doesn't apply to everyone because not everyone wants to swap out headers again, but for people with access to a lift and enjoy working, this wouldn't be a problem.
As far as the flange ports matching the heads...
1. What makes you think that these wouldn't match?
2. What makes you think the Cattman's match any better?
I'm sure they used the OEM gasket as a template and that is PERFECTLY FINE!
Considering most people use the OEM gasket, there would be no problem at all, because even if the ports on the flange were bigger, they would still be restricted by the port size of the gasket.
You see, there is a law called the law of diminishing returns.
This law can apply to headers for the Maxima.
For example, the first $400 investment for headers will yield a gain of 20whp. (OBX)
Now the next $400 invested will not yield another 20whp, but more like 2 or three. (CM)
From an economical point of view, the OBX are actually the better investment.
And what's with the "I will beat you in a race" crap? This isn't a Honda forum.
P.S... I will beat you all with my dad's ZR1
It seems like people keep making up BS claims about how crappy the OBX headers are just to justify them spending $400 more for a set of Cattman headers. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just the thread in general.
There has been no back to back dyno with the same car and same dyno comparing both types of headers so any speculation on power gain discrepancies is purely nonsense.
I'm sure the Cattman design had more R&D, but just because something costs more doesn't mean it performs any better, or that the extra cost is worth the small gain in performance.
DatDude20 put down something like 247whp with his OBX headers. I'm sure there are some people with Cattman headers who put down lower numbers, and some who put down higher numbers. Any difference between OBX and Cattman headers is well within the margin of error for the dyno itself anyway...you see?
And people need to stop hating on the fact that the OBX are made in China. I've had my headers on for 8 months now and as of today they have no surface rust at all, just some discoloration and I live in New Jersey, so they have been exposed to road salt all winter.
The material is REAL stainless steel and it is thick enough to be a PITA to drill through for an o2 bung. (Ask me how I know)
And unless anyone has made measurements of the pipe thickness with a micrometer, no one can say the Cattman's are any thicker. (I wouldn't be surprised if they were though)
Maybe the Cattman's are marginally thicker so they will last longer, but I don't see how it matters.
Say the Cattman's last 5 years and the OBX last 3 years.
It would still be cheaper to buy the OBX headers because I could buy two sets that would last a total of 6 years. This would give me one more year than the Cattman's and still cost less. I realize this doesn't apply to everyone because not everyone wants to swap out headers again, but for people with access to a lift and enjoy working, this wouldn't be a problem.
As far as the flange ports matching the heads...
1. What makes you think that these wouldn't match?
2. What makes you think the Cattman's match any better?
I'm sure they used the OEM gasket as a template and that is PERFECTLY FINE!
Considering most people use the OEM gasket, there would be no problem at all, because even if the ports on the flange were bigger, they would still be restricted by the port size of the gasket.
You see, there is a law called the law of diminishing returns.
This law can apply to headers for the Maxima.
For example, the first $400 investment for headers will yield a gain of 20whp. (OBX)
Now the next $400 invested will not yield another 20whp, but more like 2 or three. (CM)
From an economical point of view, the OBX are actually the better investment.
And what's with the "I will beat you in a race" crap? This isn't a Honda forum.
P.S... I will beat you all with my dad's ZR1
01-24-2010, 07:07 PM
#104
does it ******* matter??? there is (i dont even remember cause im tipsy) whatever amount of head studs and when you finish your install and there is a bolt on all head studs and the header between the bolt and head studs then does it really ******* matter... no seriously............................ cattmans are great fitment and im sure nobody knocked that but when somebody makes the most pointless topic about "AWW MAN MY CATTMAN FITS GREAT, BRO" nobody mentions OBX right, then why the **** when somebody makes an OBX or ebay thread then some dumb sas has to come on saying "AWW MAN LEMME SUCK BRIANS DCIK CAUSE HIS HEADERS FIT GREAT"
Dave is "just making a point" in this thread so I'm going to "make a point" of my own.
What people spend their money on is upto them, and he also said that "Cattman headers made 5whp more than the v2OBX version."
How significant is 5whp on a dyno? You see 5whp variations between temperatures, between different dynos and even just different pulls. Even if you pulled 5whp more on a set of headers that set you back an extra $600, your AFR would still be sitting at 11s with your garbage ignition timing maps and stock rev limit. Now you're either forced to wait or halfass your tuning solution by bending the **** out of your MAF signal to have your car running halfway right. That's without datalogging either.
01-24-2010, 07:52 PM
#110
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Your pictures, numbers, and videos are great. The thing is that they don't show or prove anything in relation to this discussion other than the fact that the OBX headers provide good gains over stock in a similar manner that the cattman headers do. That is a fact that I have not contested a single time in this thread.
You have consistently assumed that I am saying OBX are bad, worse than stock, 10x worse than cattman, and junk or trash. Please get your head out of your *** and try to read what I've been saying this whole time instead of getting offended and flying off the handle. I'm agreeing with you on everything except your claim that the OBX "give the exact same gains as cattman" which is, simply stated, impossible considering the differences. The gains may be very minor (3-5whp), but they are there.
There's no possible way to dispute that a piece with 2.5" Y-pipe is going to make more power than one with a 2.25" Y-pipe. Would you also like to argue that a 2.5" exhaust will give the same power gains as a 3" exhaust? I nominate that as our next debate. You can be the guy slinging dirt and challenging me to battles in response to anything I have to say.
My point when talking about the header ports matching up was that it would be very easy for any manufacturer to make them line up good by just using a simple OEM gasket as the template. You obviously took it the wrong way thinking that I was saying OEM gaskets would make it line up badly or that it wasn't ok to do. Don't worry, I'm agreeing with you, Fido.
How significant is 5whp on a dyno? You see 5whp variations between temperatures, between different dynos and even just different pulls. Even if you pulled 5whp more on a set of headers that set you back an extra $600, your AFR would still be sitting at 11s with your garbage ignition timing maps and stock rev limit. Now you're either forced to wait or halfass your tuning solution by bending the **** out of your MAF signal to have your car running halfway right. That's without datalogging either.
I read over the last part of the quoted post a few times, and I really can't seem to pull an actual point from it. Could you rephrase it to make sense in relation to the discussion? Of course you have to tune for headers, no matter the brand. I really don't think that means anything unless you were trying to assert that you could buy a tuning device with the money you saved on cheaper headers. In that respect, you could also have someone modify the OBX headers for a bigger diameter Y-pipe and a bigger flex section with the money you saved.
01-24-2010, 07:58 PM
#112
does it ******* matter??? there is (i dont even remember cause im tipsy) whatever amount of head studs and when you finish your install and there is a bolt on all head studs and the header between the bolt and head studs then does it really ******* matter... no seriously............................ cattmans are great fitment and im sure nobody knocked that but when somebody makes the most pointless topic about "AWW MAN MY CATTMAN FITS GREAT, BRO" nobody mentions OBX right, then why the **** when somebody makes an OBX or ebay thread then some dumb sas has to come on saying "AWW MAN LEMME SUCK BRIANS DCIK CAUSE HIS HEADERS FIT GREAT"
If I had to do the maxima game over...I'd make completely custom ones and how I would do it is in this thread BTW
01-24-2010, 08:00 PM
#113
I really don't see why this is even worth discussion.
It seems like people keep making up BS claims about how crappy the OBX headers are just to justify them spending $400 more for a set of Cattman headers. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just the thread in general.
There has been no back to back dyno with the same car and same dyno comparing both types of headers so any speculation on power gain discrepancies is purely nonsense.
I'm sure the Cattman design had more R&D, but just because something costs more doesn't mean it performs any better, or that the extra cost is worth the small gain in performance.
DatDude20 put down something like 247whp with his OBX headers. I'm sure there are some people with Cattman headers who put down lower numbers, and some who put down higher numbers. Any difference between OBX and Cattman headers is well within the margin of error for the dyno itself anyway...you see?
And people need to stop hating on the fact that the OBX are made in China. I've had my headers on for 8 months now and as of today they have no surface rust at all, just some discoloration and I live in New Jersey, so they have been exposed to road salt all winter.
The material is REAL stainless steel and it is thick enough to be a PITA to drill through for an o2 bung. (Ask me how I know)
And unless anyone has made measurements of the pipe thickness with a micrometer, no one can say the Cattman's are any thicker. (I wouldn't be surprised if they were though)
Maybe the Cattman's are marginally thicker so they will last longer, but I don't see how it matters.
Say the Cattman's last 5 years and the OBX last 3 years.
It would still be cheaper to buy the OBX headers because I could buy two sets that would last a total of 6 years. This would give me one more year than the Cattman's and still cost less. I realize this doesn't apply to everyone because not everyone wants to swap out headers again, but for people with access to a lift and enjoy working, this wouldn't be a problem.
As far as the flange ports matching the heads...
1. What makes you think that these wouldn't match?
2. What makes you think the Cattman's match any better?
I'm sure they used the OEM gasket as a template and that is PERFECTLY FINE!
Considering most people use the OEM gasket, there would be no problem at all, because even if the ports on the flange were bigger, they would still be restricted by the port size of the gasket.
You see, there is a law called the law of diminishing returns.
This law can apply to headers for the Maxima.
For example, the first $400 investment for headers will yield a gain of 20whp. (OBX)
Now the next $400 invested will not yield another 20whp, but more like 2 or three. (CM)
From an economical point of view, the OBX are actually the better investment.
And what's with the "I will beat you in a race" crap? This isn't a Honda forum.
P.S... I will beat you all with my dad's ZR1
It seems like people keep making up BS claims about how crappy the OBX headers are just to justify them spending $400 more for a set of Cattman headers. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just the thread in general.
There has been no back to back dyno with the same car and same dyno comparing both types of headers so any speculation on power gain discrepancies is purely nonsense.
I'm sure the Cattman design had more R&D, but just because something costs more doesn't mean it performs any better, or that the extra cost is worth the small gain in performance.
DatDude20 put down something like 247whp with his OBX headers. I'm sure there are some people with Cattman headers who put down lower numbers, and some who put down higher numbers. Any difference between OBX and Cattman headers is well within the margin of error for the dyno itself anyway...you see?
And people need to stop hating on the fact that the OBX are made in China. I've had my headers on for 8 months now and as of today they have no surface rust at all, just some discoloration and I live in New Jersey, so they have been exposed to road salt all winter.
The material is REAL stainless steel and it is thick enough to be a PITA to drill through for an o2 bung. (Ask me how I know)
And unless anyone has made measurements of the pipe thickness with a micrometer, no one can say the Cattman's are any thicker. (I wouldn't be surprised if they were though)
Maybe the Cattman's are marginally thicker so they will last longer, but I don't see how it matters.
Say the Cattman's last 5 years and the OBX last 3 years.
It would still be cheaper to buy the OBX headers because I could buy two sets that would last a total of 6 years. This would give me one more year than the Cattman's and still cost less. I realize this doesn't apply to everyone because not everyone wants to swap out headers again, but for people with access to a lift and enjoy working, this wouldn't be a problem.
As far as the flange ports matching the heads...
1. What makes you think that these wouldn't match?
2. What makes you think the Cattman's match any better?
I'm sure they used the OEM gasket as a template and that is PERFECTLY FINE!
Considering most people use the OEM gasket, there would be no problem at all, because even if the ports on the flange were bigger, they would still be restricted by the port size of the gasket.
You see, there is a law called the law of diminishing returns.
This law can apply to headers for the Maxima.
For example, the first $400 investment for headers will yield a gain of 20whp. (OBX)
Now the next $400 invested will not yield another 20whp, but more like 2 or three. (CM)
From an economical point of view, the OBX are actually the better investment.
And what's with the "I will beat you in a race" crap? This isn't a Honda forum.
P.S... I will beat you all with my dad's ZR1
I can't have OBX's or Cattman's on my car anymore...
I also just mention the fitment and how it may not line up because OBX are basically stamped out as many as possible and as quick as possible, not one is gonna be exactly the same as the other, but thats also true with cattmans since they are basically hand made.
People just buy what you want. In the end all of our cars will be in the junkyard by the end of next decade.
Last edited by DrunkieTheBear; 01-24-2010 at 08:04 PM.
01-24-2010, 08:02 PM
#114
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I sprayed it with PB blaster... tried and tried to loosen the bolts... Only managed to round them.
I ended up getting a buddy with a torch to come over and burn those ******* off very carefully (you can definitely do damage back there...).
Other ways would be to cut them off with a dremel, possibly break the heads with a hammer and chisel. There's also a few tools that will still grab a rounded head.
01-24-2010, 08:06 PM
#115
Told you it was a *****!!!!
I sprayed it with PB blaster... tried and tried to loosen the bolts... Only managed to round them.
I ended up getting a buddy with a torch to come over and burn those ******* off very carefully (you can definitely do damage back there...).
Other ways would be to cut them off with a dremel, possibly break the heads with a hammer and chisel. There's also a few tools that will still grab a rounded head.
I sprayed it with PB blaster... tried and tried to loosen the bolts... Only managed to round them.
I ended up getting a buddy with a torch to come over and burn those ******* off very carefully (you can definitely do damage back there...).
Other ways would be to cut them off with a dremel, possibly break the heads with a hammer and chisel. There's also a few tools that will still grab a rounded head.
The front I used bull cutters.....
The read I used... Well.. A hammer.. Chisel.. Flat head, Some of those mini bull cutter hand held scissors, more of a hammer, long story short after the bolt became shaved, I used a Flat head, placed the flat head on each end of the bolt, and basically used the hamer to break threw the heat shield until I got the heatshield off. The shaved rusty bolt remained in Place but I just Broke the heatshielf and ripped it, and turned it, and eventually even got it out from the TOP of the car. What a pita.. talk about 2-3 hours of hell.
01-24-2010, 08:07 PM
#116
Told you it was a *****!!!!
I sprayed it with PB blaster... tried and tried to loosen the bolts... Only managed to round them.
I ended up getting a buddy with a torch to come over and burn those ******* off very carefully (you can definitely do damage back there...).
Other ways would be to cut them off with a dremel, possibly break the heads with a hammer and chisel. There's also a few tools that will still grab a rounded head.
I sprayed it with PB blaster... tried and tried to loosen the bolts... Only managed to round them.
I ended up getting a buddy with a torch to come over and burn those ******* off very carefully (you can definitely do damage back there...).
Other ways would be to cut them off with a dremel, possibly break the heads with a hammer and chisel. There's also a few tools that will still grab a rounded head.
I just can't get the damn thing out. It keeps getting caught on different things. Is there some sort of trick to put it at the right angle where it'll slide out?Surprisingly, I've only had two bolts sheer, and one strip, considering the number of bolts I've had to remove.
01-24-2010, 08:10 PM
#117
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The front I used bull cutters..... The read I used... Well.. A hammer.. Chisel.. Flat head, Some of those mini bull cutter hand held scissors, more of a hammer, long story short after the bolt became shaved, I used a Flat head, placed the flat head on each end of the bolt, and basically used the hamer to break threw the heat shield until I got the heatshield off. The shaved rusty bolt remained in Place but I just Broke the heatshielf and ripped it, and turned it, and eventually even got it out from the TOP of the car. What a pita.. talk about 2-3 hours of hell.
The read I used... Well.. A hammer.. Chisel.. Flat head, Some of those mini bull cutter hand held scissors, more of a hammer, long story short after the bolt became shaved, I used a Flat head, placed the flat head on each end of the bolt, and basically used the hamer to break threw the heat shield until I got the heatshield off. The shaved rusty bolt remained in Place but I just Broke the heatshielf and ripped it, and turned it, and eventually even got it out from the TOP of the car. What a pita.. talk about 2-3 hours of hell.
01-24-2010, 08:11 PM
#118
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Oh, no, it's loose. I just can't get the damn thing out. It keeps getting caught on different things. Is there some sort of trick to put it at the right angle where it'll slide out?
Surprisingly, I've only had two bolts sheer, and one strip, considering the number of bolts I've had to remove.
I just can't get the damn thing out. It keeps getting caught on different things. Is there some sort of trick to put it at the right angle where it'll slide out?Surprisingly, I've only had two bolts sheer, and one strip, considering the number of bolts I've had to remove.
01-24-2010, 08:12 PM
#119
The rear heat shield was such a PITA to remove. I mangled it with an air chisel.
Next after that was getting the actual rear manifold out of the car.
Don't remember what other hiccups that I had but I know the install took me about 8 hours. And that's with using a lift and the help of another mechanic.
Next after that was getting the actual rear manifold out of the car.
Don't remember what other hiccups that I had but I know the install took me about 8 hours. And that's with using a lift and the help of another mechanic.
01-24-2010, 08:14 PM
#120
But that's mostly because I've had work, and I'm doing it on jack stands, which is making it terribly annoying to get at different bolts.
I'm just gonna go beat the hell out of my heat shield. I can always find another one if I ever go back to stock...