my mom's buying a new car, she's looking at a 2k2 Lincoln LS and a the I35--she likes the I35 a little more (me too)but wants to buy American--is there anything i can say to convince her it's not unpatriotic to buy a japanese car????
thx

 

I35 is based off the Nissan Maxima, which was designed in the La Jolla Design center in La Jolla, California, USA.

 

Well simply put, American car just dont have the ride as european or japanese cars. Their suspension will never match up.

Just like that LS, it is good, but it will never ride like a BMW or a Lexus or a Audi.

Dixit

 

I will never buy American. I dont like the way domestics are designed and built. One of my collegues here at work was a GM engine designer for 13 years. After talking to him, it's no surprise American cars come out the way they do.

Plus, UAW workers are a bunch of whining losers. Ever wonder why none of the workers at USA based Japanese (Honda Nissan Toyota)assembly plants are in UAW??


Every single time the employees vote on whether or not to join UAW, the vote is at least 2 to 1 not to join. The UAW was even thinking of trying to sue the Japanese companies for not having their American workers in the union.

 

thanks for the replies, i was thinking more in terms of where the money goes once the car is bought--are most of the infiniti parts made in usa, i know the LS's tranni is made in japan, i'm trying to convince that she won't be "putting American workers out" by buying the infiniti
thx

 

heh, thats pretty funny. tell her to buy a car because she likes the car.... not because of where the seatbelt was manufactured

 

In my opnion the LS is a better car than the I35. All independent suspension--far superior to the I35 suspension, RWD 4.0L v8 or 3.0 v6 with a great 5-speed gearbox, almost perfect weight distribution (52/48, i think) Better ride and handling than an I35. Looks is subjective. I35 has a great engine, and prolly better initial quality, but wait till rattles appear.

I35 is a gussied up maxima.

The LS is a dressed down Jag S-type

 

Exactly.

Edmunds.com had a really neat article awhile ago on what exactly is and is not an "American" car. With the global economy today, there is no fine line between "American" and "Japanese" built cars. Many Japanese cars are designed and built in the US, and the money from the cars goes to pay the "American" designers and "American" people that build them. The profits go to Japan, but then they dump more money into building new design centers, and new factories in the US.

The Maxima and I35, if I'm not mistaken, are all going to be built in the United States by Americans.

The LS on the other hand is, as already stated, pretty much based on a Jaguar design which is UK based, although now under the "Ford" banner. The engine design, tranny, and pretty much all of the mechanicals of that car are all Jaguar based, and was not designed by Americans to the best of my knowledge...

And my Honda Accord is built mostly of American sourced parts and is actually classified as a "domestic". Imagine that!

And believe it or not, the Ford Crown Vic / Mercury Grand Marquis cars were actually built overseas for a few years and imported to the US because if they were built here then Ford wouldn't ahve passed the governmental fleet fuel economy guidelines, so they had to have them built overseas so that they wouldn't hurt the fleet fuel mileage average...

So imagine some "old fogie" driving around in their old-school "American" Ford Crown Vic displaying their patriotism by buying a fine American automobile, completely unaware that it wasn't even built here!

Even after all of this globalisation, though, there is still one thing that hasn't changed, and that's quality standards.

"Japanese" makes (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru) continue to have the highest standards of quality for automobiles in the world, and that high standard comes from the top, and applies regardless of who designed it, or where it's built.

"American" makes (GM, Ford, Chrysler) on the other hand, continue to have the lowest standards. If you buy an "American-based" car (the LS qualifies as it's under the Ford banner) you're most likely going to get a less than stellar product.

"German" makes (BMW, VW, Mercedes (actually merged with Chrysler now, why I have no idea...)) continue to make exciting and fun vehicles to drive, but they're not as reliable as Japanese, and not as crappy as American, and when they break, they're expensive as hell to fix.

==========

So print out this thread, show it to your mom, and then she can make her own conclusions.

I will never buy anything but a car that's under a Japanese "flag" because I demand high quality and reliability in automobiles. My Accord qualifies as a Japanese "flag" car, even though it's built in the US and the majority of parts are sourced in the US, and it's classified by the EPA as a "domestic" vehicle because of this. The quality standard that applies to the Accord is that of the "Japanese" standard, which is the highest in the industry.

SteVTEC

 

Call me selfish, but if I am going to buy something with my hard earned money I am going to buy something that I feel is the best and is worth my money and will meet my needs/wants regardless of where it is made.

 

Isn't it more like the Maxima is a stripped down I35? I mean in other countries, like Europe and Japan, the I35 body is actually used instead of the Maxima. The Maxima body style is US only. But both are based of another platform, whats it called, the Cefiro?

Am I wrong? Or just confused?

 

My 2K2 Maxima is replacing a 1999 Cadi STS. I have nothing good to say about the STS. There was always something braking down and the service is nothing to write home about. I had a 1992 Max se with no problems and 1997 STS with tons of problems. Sure, there are exceptions but Japanese assembly and QC is way better.

 

One word: Reliability.

 

I remeber reading this example of the difference between import and domestic strategies. I think it was in a Car and Driver editorial column.

Audi and GM get some of their interior trim pieces from the same manufacturer. GM gives them a 3mm tolerance for the overall size of the parts. Audi gives a tolerance of only 1mm.

That pretty much spells it out right there.

 

You'll never convince her that the money isn't going to Japan. But you can argue that any money going there will eventually come back in the form of those goods and services that Japan buys from the United States. Such goods and services would include airplanes, food, technology, computers, raw materials for making automobiles such as scrap steel, textiles, metals, or any other commodity that we produce best.

So, if we never send our dollars over there, they will never be able to return them by buying our U.S. goods. In other words, as long as the world economy is strong, American workers will benefit.

 

you are right....in europe they sell a maxima in an infinti body style

 

I don't know what you guys are complaining about. The ls is a far superior automobile than the infiniti i35.
Safety:
Ls - http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_rat...html/00017.htm
i35 - http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_rat...tml/00015.htm.
Performance:
LS - rwd, 5 speed, near perfect weight distrubtion, 3.9l dohc, independent suspension
I35 - fwd, 4 speed, 3.5l dohc, rear multi beam

Awards, ls - mt car of the year, engine on wards top 10 list last year.
i35 - wards auto top 10 list.

Seriously, some of you guys must be completely stupid to use GM as a representation of ford/lincoln. As said in the other posts, the ls is mostly a jag. So I don't know what this crap about the ls not performing up to OTHER european cars because it is a european car.

Conclusion, let your mom drive both and let HER decide. Just because you are a pro nissan doesn't mean that your mom should have the same brand. That is absolutly a stupid thing to do. Both cars are very good cars, but the ls blows away the i35 PERIOD. Unless you think she needs the benifits of a fwd car, you have no valid arguments to make the i35 a better choice, but then she should get a es300.

Edit: What is this crap of trying to give jobs to American companies?!? Just buy the damn car, who cares. All of that is just simple economics that taking loans is technically creating money. Making it interest free just makes it less of a hassle when the money is destroyed.
Also, the ls comes with free maintainance for 3 years 36k miles.

 

thanks a million for the replies--i'm going to re-test drive each next week with my mom and hopefully this post will have some effect on her decision, but if it doesn't at least she'll be enlightened as i am by this post
thanks again,
matt

 

I always thought the Jags were on Ford platforms, not the other way around. Makes sense since Ford owns Jag.

I'm not sure on the S-types but the X-type is based on Ford's european Mondeo(Contour) platform. It has Ford's tranverse Duratec based V6 but uses a special 4WD transaxle in order to run the transverse engine configuration for awd mode.

So unless someone is 100% on this, I'm going to have to guess that the S-type is based on the new Lincoln platform. Makes sense becuase the x-type uses Ford's V8 based engine. But Jag made sure they tuned the suspensions and designed the interiors for the X and S type.

 

Dodge Viper






Other than that, I've got nothing

 

I'm not sure "whose" platform the LS or S-Type belongs (Ford or Jaguar) but I believe the platform belongs to "Ford" and that it was "given" to Jaguar.

As for the engines, the 3.0L V6 is actually the Ford "Duratec" V6 which is pretty much the old "Vulcan" block (150HP, pushrod-OHV) with a Mazda-designed (another Ford owned manufacuter) DOHC 24-valve head and 210HP or so in the LS. The 3.9L V8 is actually a "Jaguar" block design that originated from the XK8, which is a "Jaguar" platorm that was already in existance.

Amd according to Consumer Reports, predicted reliability on the Infiniti I35 is much better than average (the highest), and predicted reliability on the LS is much worse than average (the lowest)

 

Depending on how you look at it, the Viper could be an import as well. The car was designed and is built in America, but DaimlerChrysler AG, which is a German company with headquarters in Germany

 

Did you guys and gals know that BMW M series are built here in the US, or at least converted in the US? That's what the European delivery section on the BMW website said, the M series are not available for European delivery... strange.. maybe I read wrong.

 

Lincoln=Ford...Fixed or Repaired Daily...I better be pushin' Chevy than drivin' FORD.LOL

On a more serious note, domestic cars depreciate in value. Your I35 will cost $17K in 3 yrs...what about LS?

 

If you mom likes domestics ... show her the fuel to miles ratio. Even with gas prices dropping now-a-days, it'll still be expensive because American cars have bigger gas tanks to give an illusion that u only have to fill up once a week.

Japanese cars are of better quality, more environmental friendly, and factories where these cars are produced are filled w/ white ppl so .. its basically a American made car .. once u get down to it ...

Oh - and the best remark to make ... Tell her to find all her "Made in the USA" products. Now compare them to all her "Made in China" and "Made in Japan" products. Case closed.

 

Just because they arent available for the Euro delivery program doesnt mean that they are built here...

 

The Europeans are better then the american imports. for example take the M3...in europe they have 343hp and here in the US they only have 333hp

 

Ford doesn't "give" anything to Jag. They own them

The Duratec series is Ford only(overhead cam type) It's part of their modular engine design to cover 4 cyl, 6 cyl and 8 cyl engines. Mazda had no hand in it. Jaguar might have had some design influence in the tuning for the Ford based engines in the X and S types but I can't be sure. But they do put out more hp than the Ford counterparts.

I'm not sure which exact Jag, but it also used the Ford V6. It was based on the older Thunderbird SC engine. Supercharged V6. I'm not too sure about the V8 version.

 

THE CRASH TEST WITH THE I35:

"BOTTOM RIGHT: Footwell intrusion contributed to the likelihood of injuries to both lower legs."



OUCH!

 

I have some suggestions to expand your search when comparing against the I35.

Pontiac Bonneville SSEi: Packed with features. Consumers Reports ranked the Bonne above average in reliability and insurance institute tested similar buick lesabre and gave it good marks for the offset test. 0-60mph 6.8 to 7.5 seconds, hair slower than I35. More passenger and trunk room though. Awesome looks with new for 2002 wheels!!! Generates awesome braking and cornering numbers but not at the communication level of a 300M or Lincoln.

Chrysler 300M: New 300M Special which has standard HIDs and other stuff. Sharp look. J.D. Power ranked highly for initial quality. Closest to imports in perceived quality also. Probably a sharper driving car that the I35, supposedly highly ranked by Car and Driver. 0-60mph in about 7.5 seconds.

Lincoln LS: Hailed by the press as the only American car that can take pot shots at Euro sports sedans. Aggressive-sounding V8 available, still slower than I35 to 60mph by a hair. Reliability in the long term sounds iffy. Best choice for short-term lease.

also:
consider Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. Decent car overall. Decent reliability and most of the problems are ones that crop up at delivery up to the first year. Thereafter, should be as reliable as a Toyota. Year-end deals are sick. Few months back you can get a leather, automatic climate control, 240hp GTP for about $21,500 after $2000 rebate, not to mention 0% financing!!! That car can do honest quarter-miles of low-15s to high 14s and in rare cases 14.6s.

 

The Ford "Duratec" V6, the 24-valve DOHC one, was the Vulcan block with a Mazda-designed DOHC 24-valve head. This was published information. I haven't heard "Duratec" referred to for any engine other than the 3.0L DOHC V6. The 2.0L "Zetec" was also a Mazda-designd engine if I'm not mistaken, along with the older 2.3L 4-banger in the older Escorts, that was another Mazda engine. And the 2.5L V6 in the Probe is a Mazda engine. The 3.9L V8 is a Jaguar-sourced engine. But the 4.6L and 5.4L V8's are actually die-hard "Ford" engines.

I think one of the main reasons that Ford acquired Mazda was to get their hands on their powertrain department. There are a lot of Fords on the roads nowadays that don't actually have an American-designed engine in them.

Yes, you can say they're "American" engines because they're owned by an American company, but if they were designed overseas by non-Americans, well, you get my point

Higher compression head (90% sure of that) and Jaguar's implementation of a variable valve timing scheme, which is not present on the "base" Duratec engine in the LS or the Taurus. I'm not sure if Jag put a whole new head in, or just built on top of the existing Mazda head on the Ford block

So confusing....

 

Okay. I ain't gonna to trapsing all over the net to argue! Not over Duratecs and Mazda's piston engines! LOL.

I know Ford begun their modular series of engines so the castings for the 4,6,8 clinder engines will be similar. Maybe I got the engine group name wrong.

 

The last time I heard the words "modular" from Ford was when they were building the 4.6L "modular" V8 to replace the 5.0 in the Mustang, Crown Vic, and other V8 Ford's. Maybe that's what you were referring to. I think I read the same thing way back when.

I think what happened was they said "FTS" (f*ck that sh*t) and that was around the time Mazda was acquired or something... I don't blame them. A 4.6L V8 with only 200HP

It's funny, though. I was reading some early reports on the new Mercury "Marauder" (sp?) which is a sport version of the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis awhile ago, and Ford was saying that the car was delayed because they couldn't get enough low-end torque out of the 4.6L V8 design and that they had to move it up to the 5.4L V8??!!?

I read that and then I was thinking to myself, so the Japanese and the Germans can build smaller and more powerful V8 engines with well over 300HP, yet classic American "big iron" can't get hardly 200HP and good low-end out of an even larger engine?

 

The DOHC head on the 4.6 made 280hp the first year it came out on the Lincoln Mark VIII. I agree, 4.6 liters for 200 horses is worthless, but the engine can make good power when it's not saddled with the SOHC head they put on Grandma's Crown Vic.