I was driving to work the other day an suddenly got a CES light. Plugged my code reader in and I was getting P0011 and P0021. Trying to think what happened lately that I would suddenly throw 2 identical codes.

I have always put Shell Premium in my car. Two days earlier, I had filled the car with Valero Premium gas. Hmmmmm...my Altima was gas sensitive as well, so...

I reset the codes, filled it up with Shell Premium again. That was about 400 miles ago, and the codes have not returned. Hard to believe that my car is that sensitive about which gas I put into it, but that seems to be the case.

Anyone else experience this?

 

probably too much ethanol in one of them...i think the one you stopped using is a cheaper gas probably hence your code. i use non ethanol, but i havent had code problems like you before i found my non ethanol source

 

Could be different elsewhere, but Valero gas in the midwest sucks a$$. I filled up there once, car ran like crap, bad mpg's, and I have never returned.

 

My car does not run well on any Valero gas.

 

No Ethanol here in So Calif, at least none that I know of.

 

Both of your IVT solenoids are dirty or didn't have enough oil pressure, so not gas related, but oil.

Could be something else (like another sensor) and the ECU is quirky, but who knows.

 

I haven't changed anything but the gas, and the CES light has not come on again, it has been 1000 miles now.

 

Its everywhere.

 

Interesting that ethanol is brought up. I've been posting recently in a thread about the crap. There's a station here that sells non ethanol gas, but it's only 89 octane and it's 4.25 a gallon, versus 3.75ish for the government mandated "up to 10% ethanol" 89 you find at every gas station now.

We don't have Valero stations here, but next time I go for a road trip, I'll make sure to stay away from them.

As far as an ECU being quirky, I can agree with that. At the dealer I work at, we always have cars come in with CEL's when the summer gas blend is switched over to winter blend, and vice versa. Alot of late model cars, especially high performance ones, do have sensitive computers, and any slight variation can set off a light, even changes in fuel blends, or even brands of fuel, depending on what part of the country you're in, because fuel blends differ from region to region, or in some instances, states.

 

I just got my 2K2 Max recently, and I was putting 87 in it at first, not knowing any better. I out 93 in it the other day and it is so much stronger on pick up speed and idles so much better...93 from here on out!!

 

Is premium required on the 3.5's? My 3.0 on the gas door says "Premium fuel recommended for maximum performance"

 

You see I was always told that it didn't matter what type of gas I put in but I know my car and I had my car for sometime now and all I put in is mid/premium BP. When I first got my car I only put regular in it and it was a ****ty ride but now its much better.. I was told that my car don't need it I will be throwing off my sensors... All I know is I still put in mid/premium and it drives better..

 

Hey hey a new gas thread. I never used Valero but I have been Chevron/Shell only for a while. I agree it does sound like maybe too much ethanol or just general low quality gas. Especially if it doesn't come back with Shell then that pretty much nails it. Maybe they accidentally filled their tank with E85. That would not keep a max from running but would set off the SES light. I'm not sure just using a lower octane or even low quality gas would be enough to set off the light unless it was really bad gas.


Speaking of which I just thought of a scam that I think needs to be looked out for, especially at lower end and independent gas stations. Assuming ethanol can be purchased independently of gas what is to keep a gas station owner from "watering down" their gas with ethanol? From everything I have read they blend the ethanol at the retailer supply level and not from the refinery. Further without major testing I doubt an extra 10% ethanol would be easily noticeable.

 

Interesting theory on the scam. What has me curious about it is why would a gas station purposely add more ethanol into the gas? What would they benefit from doing so?

 

Lower octane leads to knock which essentially means the gas/air mixture detonates before it is supposed to. While our engines compensate that is why you would notice your engine felt dull compared to what you were used to. An engine is designed with a grade of gas in mind, you can get away with running something lower but in the end the money you save on gas has to be measured against a decrease in economy.

 

I just cracked another detail of my would be scam, they don't even need access to straight ethanol just E85. That is still 15%gas, you could add say 20% of your storage tank with e85 then the rest with you regular gas. We already determined before that ethanol has a higher octane than gas so they would have no worries as far as that was concerned.

As for the why that is the easy part. The national price for E85 is $3.23 vs $3.68 for gas. If gas station owners truly get squeezed as they claim to then that .42c difference gives them plenty of incentive. All you would need to know is how much ethanol or E85 you could get away with adding before people started getting check engine lights and tied it to you.

 

Ok I see where you are going with this... interesting, and it makes sense. I can see this happening in areas of the country where E85 is readily available. I've never seen it for sale here where I am. I'm sure once E85 goes nationwide then a box of Corn Flakes will probably go up to $20 LoL

 

Hope not. I hope they realize ethanol isn't the way and stop it. Sad truth is lobbyists and PACs representing corn farmers will push it because that will drive up the demand on corn, as there isn't exactly anyone representing the "pure" gas movement it's pretty easy for them. Everyone involved only stands to gain, farmers and oil companies. I gotta figure ethanol is already cheaper to make than gas as you are dealing with a domestic supply chain but then the subsidies on top probably make it a no brainer from a business standpoint.

 

It's a big political mess. Most farms nowdays aren't the old school multi-generational farms that have been passed down the bloodlines, they are huge businesses. Most of the farmers that we think of now are rare. I never understood the concept of people who want big government to run and rule everything. It hasn't worked well for other countries around the world, so what makes them think it would work here? The postal service is a good example of how bad the government runs a business. When you look at FedEx or UPS, they are making alot more money and you can actually track something alot more accurately. Another great example is Amtrak. Since it's inception in the 70's, it has never, ever turned a profit. It actually costs us tax payers millions of dollars every year to keep Amtrak operational. I have stats about Amtrak in a book and I would post some of it, but it's at my place and i'm at my g-f's place right now so I don't have it with me.

 

Just saw this at the top of MSNBC

I guess refiners are losing their .45c per gallon subsidy.

 

That was a great article, thanks for posting!

 

GM killed public transportation before amtrak was even created.

No one knows history at all, otherwise, they'd tell GM to F themselves.

 

Used the Valero before no side effects used Shell, Chevron, and Bp all are the same to me for most of my city driving....usually stick with BP right by where I live.....

 

Never knew about that one. So how did GM go about doing that?

 

They literally bought the electric rails and scrapped them or paid whomever off that was necessary.

Why else do you think trolleys disappeared? They had to kill public trans, otherwise, there wouldn't be a market.

 

Don't know too much about trolley's. I don't think they ever had them here where I'm at. GM didn't do too good of a job killing off public transportation, it still exists in most cities.

 

Hardly exists in most cities. Only the largest cities have a decent system.

If you don't live in one them, you must have a car or it'll take you 2 hrs to get to work. GM already won.

 

We had a huge trolly system in Mpls/St Paul back in the day.. Ripped em up or buried them for busses. Now they are ripping up streets for "light rail" they go from nowhere to nowhere.

 

Love this thread. Good, relevant dialogue about current events! Gotta love how the gas companies jacked the price to nearly $4 (or above in some places) and now that it's down around $3.70 we somehow feel like we're getting a deal! What a sham.

BTW, I usually run 87 in my '03 (low miles, 64k) with just a hint - and I mean the slightest hint - of knocking from time to time. 89 seems to be a good fit. Once in a while I treat her to 93, but only when I'm feeling flush! Bad behavior I know but between mortgage and tuition payments I gotta squeeze every nickel!

 

Cool air temps will go a long way, probably. I doubt 87 would knock in the winter.

 

I've been sticking with 93 to be on the safe side. It's not even officially summer until tomorrow, and we've already had several days with temps 95+ and even a few 100 and over. When it gets that hot out I grandpa drive it.

 

As has been generally observable to me in my time here dealing with Maximas, 90% of the time it's not the engine that quits/dies/gets trashed. If the car is going to be outright unusable before the engine and using 87 octane gas does not drastically alter that chance then it could easily be argued that using 91 is a waste of money.

I personally use 91 because while I understand the concept of knock I am not sure I actually know what to listen/feel for. I wouldn't want it to be happening and not know. I stated when I bought my 5th gen in March that I plan on this being the last pure gasoline engine powered car I ever own. Of course biogasoline and/or the development of hyperefficient gasoline ICE would change that but assuming neither of those works out then I would like to ride my Max until the end of gasoline.

Edit: Funny I just read that thread about the funky fuel gauge. I bet that is being caused by ethanol. If you google "ethanol fuel gauge problems" you will see it is blamed in numerous manufacturers/models for that sort of stuff.

 

I saw these Mazda cars at Lime Rock yesterday. The Mazdas are fueled with Isobutanol (a "heavy alcohol" with properties closer to gasoline than ethanol/methanol) and use "G-Oil" lubricant. Both are a Bio-fuel/oil made through decomposition of cellulose (plant fiber). Impressive that they qualified 1&2 in their class, ahead of an E-10 fueled 6L.12cyl.600HP. Aston Martin/Lola. Maybe there's "Light at the end of the tunnel" as far as suitable "green" replacements for fossil fuels etc.

http://www.mazdainthenews.com/isobut...its-the-track/

 

Threw two codes for o2 sensors a few weeks ago after a tank of BP 89 Ethanol Blend (dunno WHAT I was thinking!).

Refueled with my "special" 93 non-ethanol Shell brew that the local guy "imports" from Chicago, and all is well again.

My car is VERY VERY sensitive to bad fuel, to say the least -- pre-det, bad mileage, poor performance, and add buggered o2 sensors to the list.

I'll be paying the .25 premium, and that's .25 more than BP Premium fuels around here.....but SO worth it!

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

gr

**Ethanol is TOTAL B.s., btw -- farm subsidies and big government....nothing more.**

 

Don't know much about isobutanol, but from the research i've done, it seems like it suffers the main drawback as ethanol... extracting the product from biomass which isn't "easy" to do. I've seen it made from algae, switchgrass, and other biowaste such as yard waste and organic waste from everyday home use. (banana peels, etc) The process to break down the plants in order to produce the fuels isn't efficient. It does look like the isobutanol is a better alternative to ethanol, so we'll see what the future will bring us.