noahrexion

Vehicle:

2000 SE, 151k, Wife's car that I don't drive (just work on a little), 5 speed manual (no electric mounts). In the last 2k miles or so the car has had:

- new OEM maf, plugs, cam and (both) crank sensors, lots of maintenance (fluids/filters), fuel filter...et al
- IACV coolant lines bypassed
- Grounds added all over
- 3 new keys reprogrammed to ECU (by locksmith)

Most importantly the car has been running tip top for several hundred miles since the last time I had my hands in it. We were driving back from vacation and the car just straight died WHILE cruising @ 40mph.

No SES/CEL ever came on - I never disconnected the battery (until today) as I tried to get speak to it with my scangauge II and got NO codes. I was able to (for split second) get the car to fire up on me immediately after it died while cruising - it crapped out after 1/2 second. Every attempt after this has been crank but no start.

Battery IS good, Starter IS good, Grounds are GOOD and the motor cranks very healthy as it always does. Security light flashes as normal when key is removed and/or in ignition (but not in on position) - light goes out as normal and the car cranks fine. The fuel pump does prime as normal. I pulled every plug and tested it with wife cranking (all show very nice arcing when grounded to valve cover) - they were all also fuel soaked. FPR/Damper are not leaking, all vacuum lines are fine, all visible wiring to/from cam/crank sensors is good (no rocks flew up prior to the car cutting out or anything like that). NO fuses are blown anywhere. The SES light does come on (bulb is fine) when the ignition switch is on, goes off when cranking and used to stay off when the car would start.

So far I have been so busy with other stuff I have NOT been able to dive into this much; I have been looking for a way to download the FSM (I found it on NICO, thanks Max Gen) but I think I will have to download a new browser onto my mac cause I cannot download it.

What I did do today is:

- disconnect battery
- reconnect and I heard a slight buzzing (faint clicking too) sound coming from throttle body area (IACV)
- Disconnected IACV (gray plug) and buzzing stopped - still no start

Although I don't believe the IACV has anything to do with the starting circuit at all, I have not read over the FSM totally so I could be way wrong! Maybe I just need a new one? I used to wrench in the military and know my way around vehicles decent enough; I'm just at a major loss here until I get an FSM (I'd really like to just buy a paper copy).

I haven't done too much reading on here and am fairly new to Maxima's. I do have a multimeter and I know how to use it. I have young kids to watch, a desktop computer that cannot download (let alone print) FSM sheets for me to help outside. The maxima is a long walk to get to and going back and forth is a major PIA. I read a lot about IACV's and the unprotected circuit to the ECU and decided to bypass the coolant to it right when we got the car (few months ago). I am not sure what the problem is, obviously, as the normal (MAF, Cam/Crank sensors, ground wires/starter, motor mounts) stuff is all known good/working condition. I am nervous that somehow the IACV shorted the ECU even though it was disconnected. My Scangauge is not reading any codes from the ECU, just the sensor input from the OBD II port. Although perhaps the ECU is fine as there are no codes, nor were there ever.

Tomorrow my wife will have a new laptop and we can try to download FSM onto that with windows and bring it out to the car to try some multimetering with. Until then is there any tips, advice or sage words you all may bestow upon me to get started? It would REALLY benefit us if we could get this going today, we are vehicle-less right now. Thanks in advance!

noahrexion

Been running back and forth to computer/car while kid naps:

IACV motor tests out fine:

- +12V @ pin 2 and 5
- Ohms at ~22 across top and bottom where necessary
- no shorts between any pins betwixt top and bottom rows

ECU "looks fine" I read this thread and got scared http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...d-seconds.html

I pulled the ECU out and lo and behold it is a "genuine Nissan reman" ecu. There is NO STA509A chip (which most people seem to have controlling their IACV). Everything top and bottom look perfect with the ECU. I'd love to be able to run some shorting tests on it while its out of the car, but I cannot find any FSM pages where I can do that.

I literally have no idea where to turn right now (aside from swapping ECU's with someone) as I do not want to buy more parts to throw at this problem.

andrewmac

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to say leave the ECU be for now. I see no real signs that the ECU is the problem.

I would lean towards fuel. You have spark, you have air, focus on the fuel.

Injectors?
Fuel Pressure Regulator?
Do you have the tools to check the fuel pressure?
Have you tried using starting fluid?

noahrexion

I think you may be right, I was actually just looking for some in the garage. I will have to go get some.

Although when I pulled plug(s) to test I saw fuel on them, I do know that inadequate fuel supply still means fuel on plugs but can no start.

I just got done verifying all harness, power supply/relays are good to ECU and the 5V sensor output is indeed 5V. My TPS tests out fine too.

I have verified the following already:

- fuel on spark plugs
- 1 second (approx) pump priming with IGN ON
- Felt return line "pulse" when pump primes

(this essentially tells me pump is running)

- Have pulled vacuum feeds from both fuel pressure regulator and damper - both are dry and do not indicate any malfunction

Obviously since the car is no starting I cannot pinch test any of those. In my experience, even low(er) fuel pressure would start the car. Although I may try to pull vacuum line off to see if it starts without the vacuum from the motor turning over.

I will also snag some starting fluid and give this punk a squirt to see if that does anything. I'm definitely not so sure which direction best to go right now. Thanks for your input.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

You checked practically everything - good job .

If I were you I'd spray QuickStart fluid into intake and try to crank it. If it is fuel problem indeed engine supposed to give you few cycles.

noahrexion

And indeed it did! Thank you guys for the suggestion!

All that junk I did for, little to nothing, didn't put me any closer. Funny thing is, I had a can that I think my brother took from me on a visit to my garage - I just skipped that step initially cause I saw/smelled fuel on the injectors.

In any case, I'm not 100% on where to go now.

- My fuel pump is totally operational (its got the initial 1V and then 12V post 1 second w/key on per FSM)
- My FPR isn't leaking
- After pulling vacuum from regulator to test a start condition with a little more umph, still get no start
- Car does indeed fire with starting fluid, easily too

Besides going and buying a noid light to ensure injectors are pulsing what is the next obvious thing I am missing here? There is no way that all of a sudden my injectors went bad (fuel pump yes, but we're good there). I am browsing the FSM now looking for control of them as I realize there are a lot of functions that disable fuel - just trying to find which is the next logical step to move towards.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Could you also check resistance of Cam- and Crank- Shaft Position sensors against their values from FSM:

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Your injectors seem to be closed. Recent story here looked very similar to yours - check Crankshaft Position sensors resistance, I bet one of them is bad leaving ECU 'blind' on the moment when to open the injectors.

noahrexion

Has this

http://maxima.theowensfamily.com/tsb/NTB99-063c.pdf

Happened to anyone?

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Can you also check couple more things:
- fuse #17 in Fuse Block- Junction Block - in cabin box of fuses, see correspondent picture in FSM. Please check it with multimeter for 0 resistance.

- presence of +12V on one of the pins of any injector connector.

Take a look at EC-706 page of FSM to realize if anything happens with +12V power line powering all the injectors you'd have the same problem.

noahrexion

I hear ya! So, the VERY first thing I did was pull both crank sensors and cam sensor and checked resistance - all 3 of them came back good (visually as well, no chipping or oil sludge). I read so many threads about all of them going bad and people still having problems and such that I bought all 3 (autozone, bleh) cause I had a 15% off coupon and $40 credit (so I only spent $100).

Needless to say they did not help at all. I will, however, go back and check all the new sensors just to be sure. As I understand it, all 3 can kill injector pulse but so can the immobilizer (where it doesn't kill fuel pump).

I will check all 3 of them next. THanks

noahrexion

I check all my fuses with multimeter this time (done). But, I do not have a EC-706, mind stops at 570 or something. Is there an extension piece I am missing?

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Yes, just few days ago but in that case owner was trying to start the car with WallMart made key and it locked itself so even stock key didn't work.

Yours died during driving, and your security lamp is off, correct?

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

here you go:

noahrexion

yes and thank you for the diagram, I'm going to go check it now since you're feeding me all this and the kid is sleeping

noahrexion

#17 zero ohms

front bank injectors all +12V

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

You have the wrong service manual. The fact that the EC section only goes to page 560 tells me this.

Nicoclub has been screwing Maxima owners for years by having the European Maxima QV manual on ther website. And to make it worse, they have switched their listing of this European manual. This manual has been listed as both the 2000 and the 2000.5 manual. You're just one more poor soul caught by their ignorance.

The reason there is a 2000 and a 2000.5 listing is that Nissan made a bunch of changes to the 2000 Maxima during its production run. I refer to this as early production and later production. For example, the early production cars do not have a fuel pump relay and the later production vehicles do.

In order to get the correct manual, you need to identify if your car is early or late production. All you need to do is look at your VIN number. If the last 8 digits of the VIN are lower than YT0 12237 or YT2 11681 or YT5 27430 or YT7 40492, then you have an early production vehicle. If your VIN is equal to or higher than what I gave you, then you have the later production vehicle.

Early production = manual called 2000.
Late production = manual called 2000.5.

Now for a website that has the correct manuals correctly labeled -

http://boredmder.com/FSMs/Nissan/Maxima/

Sorry you got screwed by Nicoclub.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Your ECU keeps injectors closed. It is supposed to supply ground to open injectors. I can think of the following reasons:
1. it doesn't have power
2. immobilizer in locked down mode
3. one of the sensors doesn't provide necessary signal

So,
1. I'd recheck fuses #58 and #59 in the engine bay, driver side. Or at least let us know if you checked those with multimeter. The ultimate check would be to verify that ECU is getting power on the contacts of its connector but it's more difficult to do. Just keep this in mind if nothing else would work.

2. Not likely your case for 2 reasons- security light behaves normally and car died while driving.

3. This can be the case. Sensors are just spools of wire and can theoretically have shorted turn- it will pass resistance test but won't produce any signal. Unfortunately, I don't know which sensor drives spark and which - injectors, I need to read around to see which one can be excluded as you're getting spark. If you still have your old ones around you could try to put them back, one at a time. It does have a danger of getting yourself into corner if the old one happens to be bad as well.

Another possibility here is some problem with ECU- sensor harness.

Out of 2 Crank Shaft Position Sensors the POS one is not spool of wire - it has 3 pin connector and it requires +12V on one of those pins. Since it's more complex I'd continue your troubleshooting by checking this sensor first. One of its features is that it can detect static magnetic field while 2 others can only detect change in the magnetic field. It also includes internal amplifier so its output signal level is high. Long story short - it contains a whole chip inside. Can you check the presence of +12 V between outer pins of its connector?

FSM page EC-403 provides much more direct test for the POS sensor - you basically can make it generate signal while putting flat blade screwdriver to its sensitive end and controlling its signal on ECU connector. I'd do this if it passes voltage check above.

While not so direct but much easier to perform is to control its signal on its middle pin while playing around with screw driver. It has high output signal which changes between 0 and 5V which is easy to detect with multimeter. If it passes, you could exclude it from further consideration.

andrewmac

iTrader: (2)

When I had a bad ground from my tranny I couldn't get the car to start and it was due to a lack of spark. Running a new ground to right next to the CPS (POS) fixed the issue. So based on that I believe it will stop spark if that sensor is malfunctioning.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I'd check it anyway since the procedure is fairly simple and it directly checks its functioning. It never hurts to check the 'obvious'. It hurts when you 'assume' something and go on wild goose chase.

BTW, POS is not grounded where it is installed - its ground comes from the harness through one of the pins of its connector and its case is made out of plastic not only to be cheap but mostly to prevent its grounding at the place where it is installed. So unless you spliced its ground wire and connected your new ground to its ground wire (still not a good idea) I don't really understand how it could help. Did you try to remove the ground to put car back to 'no start'? That would be a strong argument although still contradicting my beliefs .

noahrexion

YT5 31629 - this confirms my error in downloading the 2000. Ugh.

Thanks for steering me right Dennis I now see the extra 200 pages. I will download, or attempt to.

Max - I am going to recheck all sensors resistance (new and old again). Then I will dive into the harness/multimeter side of things and report back. Although the injectors, please correct me if I'm wrong, should have constant 12V with IGN ON. The pulse (spray) they produce comes from grounding them. I wish I had a remote starter so I could pin them to watch voltage while someone is cranking the car.

andrew - I appreciate the input, however, my car does have spark and runs with starter fluid just fine. Also, the CPS/CKS sensors do not effect spark in any way, they are isolated circuits. Having seen many Honda's no start because of grounds, I know of the importance of them - but I'm sure its a coincidence in your case.

andrewmac

iTrader: (2)

Well it was just an anecdote, not fact. When I ran a ground to a spot between the CPS and the starter on the tranny for some reason my brain associated it with grounding the CPS, which is stupid because I looked at the diagrams and tested the CPS before and knew it grounded through the ECU. Disregard my previous post, caffeine hasn't kicked in yet.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

You're correct about injectors - they're just electromagnet valves which open when you apply 12V to its contacts. One of their contacts is connected to +12V (ON position and after) while the other is driven by correspondent ECU output to the ground when it needs to open the injector. Checking voltage on the end of injector going to ECU might not reveal anything - even on perfectly running car it's a relatively short pulse which probably takes less than 5% of the total time so your multimeter will simply average that. Oscilloscope would definitely show that but we're trying to stay within limits, right? Anyway, I'd leave injectors alone until you confirm that your 3 sensors are working, starting from POS.

Sorry for not being clear - POS sensor cannot be checked for resistance, it doesn't make sense to check 'resistance' of a chip. FSM pages list resistance values for 2 others: CAM and REF but not this one.

Since it's a chip it requires power - check that on its connector and FSM also shows how to check if it's working - see above.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I think, you can check POS even easier if you have access to ECU connector:
with everything connected and in place if you measure voltage on ECU pin #85 and start cranking you should see either 0 or 5 V initially depending on the position engine was stopped at last time and then it should go to 2.5 V approx while cranking. Pulses generated by this sensor spend half of their time at 0 and half- at 5V regardless of the engine speed. When averaged, it should give you 2.5V.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Wow. I just skimmed through this quickly.

This is what I know: This is getting way more complex than it needs to be.
Humour me and completely forget everything you've done and been suggested.

Here's what I think it could be, and what you should try.

Clear codes. Doesn't matter that none are active, just clear them with your scan tool. Then try starting it. If it starts you have a NATS issue (security). You can have a NATS issue without security light issues or generic engine code present.

The fact that you talk about having 3 keys made recently for this car jumps out at me like herpies on a hookers lips.

----

Some info you have already figured out but is of note:

-Injectors on this car are completely electronically controlled. You can have perfect fuel delivery right down to the last thing (injectors) and you won't have ANYTHING unless that ECM tells them to fire.
It's for this reason that most of the fuel checks are pointless, unless you have a car that is sputtering/dying, or bogging, etc. If it's a total NO START with no sputter, etc, then it's very unlikely fuel system related unless the fuel pump is completely shot.

The point? Focus on electronics if the fuel pump is good, don't waste your time on the rest.

And most importantly:

- The NATS system uses a chip key, any wireless/RF, remote start, GPS, Antennas, strong phone signal, etc, can confuse this signal and cause a no-start. Do you have any such devices in this car, or does your wifey? If so they need to be removed. This is especiallyi mportant if the key's been changed
---

Again, this screams NATS issue to me. If your scantool isn't ballsy enough to clear the NATS code you might need to either borrow one or take this to Nissan to check programming/reprogram. Which brings me to another qeustion, how did you program these keys ?

noahrexion

CKPS (REF) - OEM/Used 537 ohms, Duralast 512 ohms

CPS (Mits) - OEM/Used 2252, Duralast 2400

CKPS (POS) - I went through steps 1 - 11 in EC chapter. Verified all harness' are good to go, have power and continuity where I should. Terminal 85 @ ECU shows ~0V and ~5V respectively from step 9 on pg. EC-397

This tells me that not only are my OEM sensors good and working, but so are the new ones. As crappy as it was to spend the money on them, at least I know they are all good at this point.

Im going back out to run through the same gambit with ECU/Harness with the CKPS (REF) and the CPS. Be back in a minute, any other suggestions to check?

noahrexion

This is getting damn complex, and frustrating to boot. I appreciate and agree with your input. However, I am going to go double check my prior post (CPS and CKPS harness/ECU) and then I will have no where else to go besides NATS issue.

I would like to point out that:

1) The keys were made a couple of months ago
2) They have all (my wife and I each have our own) have been functioning fine
3) The car will NOT start without starting fluid, there are no codes yet I did "clear" them as you speak of.

Is there any diagnostic procedure for security BS, or do I have to eliminate all this **** I'm currently dealing with first and then point that way?

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

As I already said, FORGET THE OTHER STUFF. Yo'ure wasting time and money.

If this car all of a sudden wouldn't start, I'd say sure check those cam/crank sensors, but that's not the case, the car died while driving suddenly.

This could only be a Crank sensor. Cam sensors can cause rough starting but won't stop the car from running. If your ECM lost Crank sensor signal it would die, and not start.

That's the only thing other than NATS that you should check right now.

BUT DONT BOTHER. With your key's being made recently, focuss on the NATS. Do as I said, remove any interferance units, and re-set the ECM. Again, this may take more than your generice OBDII reader, you need something higher-tier to clear NATS

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

As for the car running on starting fluid, that only amplifies that you are not getting injectors to fire. Which amplifies that the ECM is NOT FIRING THE INJECTORS.

The car has air and spark when cranking pretty much no matter what, if you INDUCE fuel, it will run temporarily, yes. That doesn't tell us anything very useful though in this situation.

noahrexion

Other stuff has all been confirmed - easy to forget now. Done...

Nothing is in the car that has any signal of any kind. I even just went out to try our spare key, no go.

Dunno if I should tow to dealer, have a locksmith come out and reprogram keys or try and find another way to diagnose myself. Can I do any NATS work without a consult II?

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

His security light goes off when he turns key to ON which would mean it is recognized by the NATS, correct?

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Can't do anything with programming but a GOOD scantool can clear out pending NATS codes which will allow the car to start at least temporarily. The only other way to do this without dealer/good scan tool would be unplugging the ECM or Battery for a day or two.

The ECM has an internal battery that will stay active even with battery disconnected, you have to leave power disconnected long enough for the ECM battery to die off.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Possibly, yes. That would be the initial diagnosis. I'm not 100% on that though.


OP, can you tell us more about WHY you had 3 keys made recently, and HOW you got these keys programmed?

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Also, you seem mechanically inclined, but just in case, is it fairly easy for you to post a video of the engine noise while cranking/trying to start? One 5 second constant crank attempt will be fine.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I don't know about any extra command in ISO 9141 protocol for clearing codes besides 'Erase them all', NATS or not. From this point of view any scanner would do. OTOH if you're talking Nissan specific protocol used by Consult II at the dealerships OP most likely won't have access to.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

ECU does not have internal battery. It has Flash type of memory which will keep data for years, including stored error codes.

noahrexion

EL322 + Looks as if there are a plethora of issues that could happen.

I think I have to bring this somewhere a Consult II and competent individuals exist. ****ing dealers...



Video of cranking.

I had 3 keys made up as we bought the car with 1. I bought 2 from Ebay, brought everything to locksmith and he used some plug in software tool (not consult) to program all 3. That was about 2-3 months ago or so.

noahrexion

Oh and I really appreciate you guys helping out, truly.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I'd agree with you on the general idea as custom keys are involved but:

- his car died while driving and to my knowledge NATS checks the key only when it is initially inserted.

- security light goes off when he turns the key to ON. FSM states that if something is wrong it would lit up that light instead.

Given these 2 facts I'm hesitant to advise key reprogramming.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

From FSM:

Also, generic scan tools do operate the same protocol, correct. BUT not all have functions to UTILIZE every ability they've been given.

For instance, this is what Nissan allows a Generic scan tool to erase:

However most scan tools only have one option, erase codes. Some have an option to erase pending codes separate.
Not all scan tools clear everything.

What you're talking about is a form of EEPROM. Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory. The DTC's and NATS codes will clear out after 24 hours when the internal battery dies. Stored Fuel maps, timing maps, etc are actually written to the ROM memory and will not be erased.