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A backstory...For a while now I have been planning to install a 4'' intake, 3'' exhaust, big injectors, the works... Of course, this requires a solid tune. Being that I have no knowledge of tuning beyond a very brief stint with VAFC2 several years ago, I decided that doing a mail-in ECU reflash would be the best option for me. Turns out, a few tuners I spoke to recently said they couldnt do this mail-in tune if im using a larger MAF/injectors - one quoted me for half a grand to do it remotely. Given that Im not too keen on spending that much on a one time tune, or any tune for that matter, I have been left with little choice but to put my big boy pants on and simply handle that sht myself. In short, I have apparently lost my god damn mind.
This thread is going to be similar to the HR swap thread I made, in that I am just starting out as a blank slate on the topic and I have no idea what I am doing. Its going to be a big learning experience for me, perhaps a very expensive one if i screw up, but none the less, I am determined to learn how to tune my own car. With the right knowledge/skill, one can get a tune that normally would cost hundreds for next to nothing. Please keep in mind this is a very advanced topic - if youre going to blow up your car somehow, this is likely how its going to happen lol. I wont be doing any of this until the weather is warmer and I get my 3'' exhaust installed (ill be tuning for that to learn the ropes) so this will pretty much just be purely for reference and discussion until then, which gives me plenty of time to learn more. Again, like the swap thread, my main goal with this thread is to simply have a nice bundle of resources all in one spot that I can easily reference and a place where I can ask questions that I get stuck on; I hope that this thread will also be of use to anyone else curious about this topic. Speaking of which - Im fully aware there is a dedicated subforum for this stuff... and im also aware that subforum is a total graveyard. Given that I'll be tuning a 5.5gen, I think its fair to post it here. Anyways, on to the meat...
https://www.my4dsc.com/how-to-flash-...aider-nisprog/
^^ Blog post that expands upon the thread above, covers tons of details and even has tutorial videos that walk you through the most intimidating parts that deal with all that command line coding gibberish that scares everyone off. VERY informative.
http://uprev.com/UpdateFiles/softwar...ng%20Guide.pdf
^^ Tutorial for Uprev tuning. Im using this simply to help teach myself on what is involved in the actual tuning, the different parameters, maps, etc. Keep in mind Uprev is not being used here.
Thats about it for now, Im only a few hours deep into this journey as i write this post. Ill be updating the list of links/resources as I come across them. If you happen to know of more resources that are helpful, whether they are regarding tuning with RomRaider or using Nisprog, or just tuning in general, PLEASE drop a line and share. I am practically in my infancy on this topic, and Im very hungry to learn - Im sure theres plenty of others on the forum who are also interested in tuning but are simply too intimidated to bother looking into it deeply. Last but not least, I gotta give a shout out to the guy who goes by "fenugrec" who put so much time and effort into making this even possible - these tools are open source (read: FREE) because he and others (whos names I dont know yet - sorry!) were kind enough to build and develop them at no cost to the public.
I would imagine dyno time being the barrier for most folks. Spensive.
Indeed it is, i intend to do as much tuning on the street as possible but eventually ill need to rent at least a few hours on a dyno. Thing is, i still think this is my best option. Had i gone with the remote tune, id be out half a grand and still have to rent a dyno anyways for the tune to be completed. Theres also the factor of simple satisfaction - itll feel great to learn this skill and know everything done to my car was done by me alone. As Hank Hill once said, “Paying another man to work on your car is like paying another man to sleep with your wife.”
The money spent on Dyno time and the headache involved I don't know that it's worth it. I had nistune for a month or two, it was a really well made program, I regret all the time I spent toying with it and when the time comes I'll pay for a Dyno tune
The money spent on Dyno time and the headache involved I don't know that it's worth it. I had nistune for a month or two, it was a really well made program, I regret all the time I spent toying with it and when the time comes I'll pay for a Dyno tune
its going to be a headache for sure. Still, i see it as my only realistic (lmao) option.
Alternatively i could opt for a remote tune - which means the half a grand just for the service, and probably close to that for the dyno rental. I could just drive out of state to one of the tuners, but then i would need to install everything over there and hope there is no issues, and still spend a large chunk of money in the end.
Idk, i definitely appreciate your feedback though. If nobody was telling me that im potentially making a big mistake here then something would be wrong lol. Im pretty confident i can wrap my head around this stuff over the course of the next couple of month though, it really seems like the biggest factor is simply putting in the hours and the effort to learn.
its going to be a headache for sure. Still, i see it as my only realistic (lmao) option.
Alternatively i could opt for a remote tune - which means the half a grand just for the service, and probably close to that for the dyno rental. I could just drive out of state to one of the tuners, but then i would need to install everything over there and hope there is no issues, and still spend a large chunk of money in the end.
Idk, i definitely appreciate your feedback though. If nobody was telling me that im potentially making a big mistake here then something would be wrong lol. Im pretty confident i can wrap my head around this stuff over the course of the next couple of month though, it really seems like the biggest factor is simply putting in the hours and the effort to learn.
You don't have any Dyno tuners in your state? I'm sure they've all done an MAF change and I don't think the injectors are necessary unless you're gonna do engine work or forced induction in the future.
Whatever route you do best of luck, it's gonna suck either way we all wish dynos weren't so expensive
You don't have any Dyno tuners in your state? I'm sure they've all done an MAF change and I don't think the injectors are necessary unless you're gonna do engine work or forced induction in the future.
Whatever route you do best of luck, it's gonna suck either way we all wish dynos weren't so expensive
Well with a 4” intake its basically mandatory to get bigger injectors. IIRC theres figures that show stock injectors capable of running it, but at some crazy high duty cycle that will eventually lead to failure. And with bigger injectors the tuning will be safer as small bit of fuel will need to be pulled rather than the car being ultralean and needing tons of fuel added with stock injectors.
How far along did you go with nistune on your car? Did you end up tuning anything or was it just too much to chew off? Theres definitely dynoshops around me, im just not personally aware of any that are familiar with tuning with this setup/software. I suppose the fundamentals never change though.. ill be calling some shops later in the week to see if i can find a good deal. I have no problem swallowing my pride and admitting that taking on this venture is dumb if i can find a better way lol.
Well with a 4” intake its basically mandatory to get bigger injectors. IIRC theres figures that show stock injectors capable of running it, but at some crazy high duty cycle that will eventually lead to failure. And with bigger injectors the tuning will be safer as small bit of fuel will need to be pulled rather than the car being ultralean and needing tons of fuel added with stock injectors.
How far along did you go with nistune on your car? Did you end up tuning anything or was it just too much to chew off? Theres definitely dynoshops around me, im just not personally aware of any that are familiar with tuning with this setup/software. I suppose the fundamentals never change though.. ill be calling some shops later in the week to see if i can find a good deal. I have no problem swallowing my pride and admitting that taking on this venture is dumb if i can find a better way lol.
Got to playing with advancing ignition timing in the regular and knock maps, and tried using the auto afr function but didn't seem to get my target afr. I didn't feel comfortable trying to tune it that much and wasn't really sure how safe it was to mess with the timing at different loads.
There was like 120 Excel type cells for all the different loads at different rpms that you have to add and subtract fuel from over and over to get your afr where you want. That's if you only use fuel adjustment, then there's "load scaling" load is the amount of air passing the MAF sensor, when you change the size of the MAF you'll have to rescale with your bigger MAF housing. Same thing with injectors.
I think even if you did learn all this youd end up spending just as much money on dyno time than paying someone whos done it a hundred(s) times to do it.
I think the 4" intake was crazy loud and in the end didn't show much gain anywhere other than top end and the same loss was found on the low end from it so nisformance ended up sticking with the 3.5" intake. I'm pretty sure uprev is what people use to tune the stock ECU on these cars, I'd look for an uprev tuner and see if you can obtain any info on suratts tune I found links to runfiles for his tune(s) but the Google docs link(s) no longer work. I remember reading the sweet spot was like 12.2 for afr, of course tunes aren't the same for everyone's car but it will save a lot of guessing and time knowing roughly where you should be looking for power
Got to playing with advancing ignition timing in the regular and knock maps, and tried using the auto afr function but didn't seem to get my target afr. I didn't feel comfortable trying to tune it that much and wasn't really sure how safe it was to mess with the timing at different loads.
There was like 120 Excel type cells for all the different loads at different rpms that you have to add and subtract fuel from over and over to get your afr where you want. That's if you only use fuel adjustment, then there's "load scaling" load is the amount of air passing the MAF sensor, when you change the size of the MAF you'll have to rescale with your bigger MAF housing. Same thing with injectors.
I think even if you did learn all this youd end up spending just as much money on dyno time than paying someone whos done it a hundred(s) times to do it.
I think the 4" intake was crazy loud and in the end didn't show much gain anywhere other than top end and the same loss was found on the low end from it so nisformance ended up sticking with the 3.5" intake. I'm pretty sure uprev is what people use to tune the stock ECU on these cars, I'd look for an uprev tuner and see if you can obtain any info on suratts tune I found links to runfiles for his tune(s) but the Google docs link(s) no longer work. I remember reading the sweet spot was like 12.2 for afr, of course tunes aren't the same for everyone's car but it will save a lot of guessing and time knowing roughly where you should be looking for power
Uprev can only be used on 04+. Romraider has become the "go to" for 02-03 ECUs as the only other option for those years are piggybacks.
You should start a thread over at RR, tuning the VQ35 is 95% the same across platforms. I've swapped a 6th gen MAF and VQ37HR injectors into my swap. I suspect my intake cam map needs some work.
Keep your eye out for a good deal on a Tactic 2.0 cable so you can do some advanced datalogging. The Subaru forums (Nasioc) and FB are the best places to find these
In all honesty i dont think it can be “that” hard. I think it will really just come down to doing tons of tedious editing and reflashing and run after run after run. Ive been referencing uprev’s basic tutorial which seems to be very similar to romraider’s setup, if im not mistaken there are formulas you use when adjusting injectors and MAF size to calculate the ballpark settings youll need. To me that stuff seems straight forward. Its when stuff like ignition timing and cam adjustments and all that fuzz gets involved that my eyes glaze over. I think i can still get a great tune without dealing with the latter - obviously ill be leaving room for more power but at least the ‘basic’ tune will be safe and drive well. But yeah, if someone knows where i could possibly find maps/settings for this that someone else has tuned successfully i would be infinitely grateful - i know you cant cookiecutter this stuff but it would be awesome to use it as a frame of reference.
I think ill start by dumping my stock tune and toying with that, i figure i can probably improve upon it since im currently running headers and the HR swap. I think once i start actually doing this stuff hands on itll make a lot more sense, its hard to learn when you are dealing purely with theory.
Im also interested in more feedback regarding 3.5 vs 4 inch intake setups - youre actually the first that ive come across that is recomending against the 4”. Im definitely more partial to having a flatter power curve rather than one that only serves the top end, ofc i want good peak whp numbers but at the end of the day its the area under the curve that matters.
You should start a thread over at RR, tuning the VQ35 is 95% the same across platforms. I've swapped a 6th gen MAF and VQ37HR injectors into my swap. I suspect my intake cam map needs some work.
Keep your eye out for a good deal on a Tactic 2.0 cable so you can do some advanced datalogging. The Subaru forums (Nasioc) and FB are the best places to find these
Definitely intend to. Just figured id start off by pointing here because this is pretty much the only car forum I use, not to mention that theres likely tons of people who are not even aware this stuff exists. What did you use for tuning, romraider? Did you do it yourself or have someone else? What are your thoughts in terms of how difficult it is? How does your car seem to run with your tune? Also, what is the advantage of the Tactrix2.0 cable over say, a generic blue VAGCOM409.1 cable? Ive seen them mentioned on the romraider forums but I dont see what makes them special over the generic cables. Ill be using NDS2 and an innovate LC2 for logging purposes, so far the cable I have works just fine but if theres a big advantage to the tactrix2.0 cable Ill probably invest in one.
In all honesty i dont think it can be “that” hard. I think it will really just come down to doing tons of tedious editing and reflashing and run after run after run. Ive been referencing uprev’s basic tutorial which seems to be very similar to romraider’s setup, if im not mistaken there are formulas you use when adjusting injectors and MAF size to calculate the ballpark settings youll need. To me that stuff seems straight forward.
MAF and injector scaling are purely mathematical, very simple. Unless you change the MAF sensor itself you shouldn't need to touch the MAF curve.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
I think i can still get a great tune without dealing with the latter - obviously ill be leaving room for more power but at least the ‘basic’ tune will be safe and drive well. But yeah, if someone knows where i could possibly find maps/settings for this that someone else has tuned successfully i would be infinitely grateful - i know you cant cookiecutter this stuff but it would be awesome to use it as a frame of reference.
It's pretty cookie-cutter, that's what the factory does; they just have different objectives. You and I have added headers to increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine; the MAF sensor will notice this and compensate with more fuel, but are the factory cam maps ideal (even more air available?) Are the open-loop fuel targets ideal (too rich?) Is the ignition trimming map maximized? (assuredly not for power from factory)
Originally Posted by Slamrod
I think ill start by dumping my stock tune and toying with that
What is your stock ROM? You can just download 6Y303 (2003 6SP) and start toying with it.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
Im also interested in more feedback regarding 3.5 vs 4 inch intake setups - youre actually the first that ive come across that is recomending against the 4”. Im definitely more partial to having a flatter power curve rather than one that only serves the top end, ofc i want good peak whp numbers but at the end of the day its the area under the curve that matters.
I'd agree that a 4" is overkill, it's getting necked down to 3" at the throttle body regardless. If you ventured into the FB world you could find where NISformance did testing of different sizing and lengths of intake and found 3.5" to be the sweet spot. Though I'd argue the results are close enough that they're within the margin of error.
What did you use for tuning, romraider? Did you do it yourself or have someone else? What are your thoughts in terms of how difficult it is? How does your car seem to run with your tune?
Yeah, I used RR myself. The software itself is straight-forward, just need to understand what impact the changes you are making will have. Car runs great, though it still has potential. I'll do some more logging this spring/summer. Of course hours after I made my first post in this thread I get my first CEL in months; looks like I might need a new O2 sensor.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
What is the advantage of the Tactrix2.0 cable over say, a generic blue VAGCOM409.1 cable? Ill be using NDS2 and an innovate LC2 for logging purposes, so far the cable I have works just fine but if theres a big advantage to the tactrix2.0 cable Ill probably invest in one.
You can use the RomRaider logger with a Tactrix cable. Since RR is open source you can add extended logging parameters to the logger definitions. Things like "ignition timing knock retard" and "mean best torque calculated advance", determine whether high octane has been detected and potentially anything else you could dream up. You can view ALL your LTFTs with a click of a button instead of data-logging for hours. Also, map-tracing which allows you to see where on the maps the engine is operating live.
MAF and injector scaling are purely mathematical, very simple. Unless you change the MAF sensor itself you shouldn't need to touch the MAF curve.
It's pretty cookie-cutter, that's what the factory does; they just have different objectives. You and I have added headers to increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine; the MAF sensor will notice this and compensate with more fuel, but are the factory cam maps ideal (even more air available?) Are the open-loop fuel targets ideal (too rich?) Is the ignition trimming map maximized? (assuredly not for power from factory)
What is your stock ROM? You can just download 6Y303 (2003 6SP) and start toying with it.
I'd agree that a 4" is overkill, it's getting necked down to 3" at the throttle body regardless. If you ventured into the FB world you could find where NISformance did testing of different sizing and lengths of intake and found 3.5" to be the sweet spot. Though I'd argue the results are close enough that they're within the margin of error.
Thats what I figured, im quite confident I can tune the fuelmaps just fine but the other stuff is going to require intensive study on my part. Idk what my stock rom is, I only began reading into this tuning stuff less than 24 hours ago lol. Im going to start toying with it more this weekend probably. As far as the intake, that makes sense to me - you said youre using the 6th gen MAF tube, what diameter is that? Cant find any relevant info on that.
Originally Posted by freezer
Yeah, I used RR myself. The software itself is straight-forward, just need to understand what impact the changes you are making will have. Car runs great, though it still has potential. I'll do some more logging this spring/summer. Of course hours after I made my first post in this thread I get my first CEL in months; looks like I might need a new O2 sensor.
You can use the RomRaider logger with a Tactrix cable. Since RR is open source you can add extended logging parameters to the logger definitions. Things like "ignition timing knock retard" and "mean best torque calculated advance", determine whether high octane has been detected and potentially anything else you could dream up. You can view ALL your LTFTs with a click of a button instead of data-logging for hours. Also, map-tracing which allows you to see where on the maps the engine is operating live.
Now THIS is podracing. That map tracing feature seems infinitely useful, that alone makes me think romraider will be better for logging than nds2. My question though, does RR currently have all the logging capabilities that NDS2 does, like can it track my AFR and everything with a wideband? I was under the impression that it was still under development, I tried skimming the RR forums and its all sorts of coding mumbo jumbo that I dont understand. I looked more into that tactrix cable - Im seeing trash chinese versions that apparently work "sometimes" for $20 as compared to the $170 tactrix asks. I think itll be worth the cost just for the peace of mind that the "sometimes" factor doesnt happen mid-reflash and bricks my ECU.
Another Q; do you know of anywhere that people post their tuning data for these cars? Im hesitant to reach out to any of the tuners that work with these cars since they make their living off of it, I feel itd be kinda insulting for some scrub to come along and ask them to basically give me their service for free. Im sure someone, somewhere has some data uploaded though lol
you said youre using the 6th gen MAF tube, what diameter is that? Cant find any relevant info on that.
I'm using a complete HPS intake from a 6th gen. It's pretty close to stock diameter (3" ID) The 6th gen sensor has about 30% greater airflow capacity (reads lower voltage for the same flow). At higher RPMs the accuracy of the 5th gen sensor can approach its limits. Using a larger housing lowers the voltage of any MAF, but you need to tell the ECU **** getting more air.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
My question though, does RR currently have all the logging capabilities that NDS2 does, like can it track my AFR and everything with a wideband?
Yes, it supports many types of wideband sensors.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
I looked more into that tactrix cable - Im seeing trash chinese versions that apparently work "sometimes" for $20 as compared to the $170 tactrix asks. I think itll be worth the cost just for the peace of mind that the "sometimes" factor doesnt happen mid-reflash and bricks my ECU.
You still need the cheap VAG-COM cable for flashing, RR doesn't handle flashing the ROM, just modifying it. I saw a used (legit) Tactrix cable going for $100 on a buy/sell FB group.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
Another Q; do you know of anywhere that people post their tuning data for these cars? Im hesitant to reach out to any of the tuners that work with these cars since they make their living off of it, I feel itd be kinda insulting for some scrub to come along and ask them to basically give me their service for free. Im sure someone, somewhere has some data uploaded though lol
There's next to nothing out there, at least not with any dyno proven results. Most of the guys who offer mail-in / remote tunes have proven their results with on a dyno and know what they're doing. The other guys who go and get dyno tuning done usually rely at least somewhat on the tuner at the dyno shop they are visiting to tune their car and may not have permission to distribute their tune. These rules hold true on the RR forum as well; unless you've tuned the thing yourself or have explicit permission from those who have made your tune, it is not yours to distribute. I've looked in the 350Z forum for tune data, and I don't recall finding anything noteworthy.
dang this is heavy !, you mind as well do TB PNP upgrade, if you are doing the breathing mods, and are u staying N/A ? all this tuning work, be sure you are done w any big mods before ! =)
I'm using a complete HPS intake from a 6th gen. It's pretty close to stock diameter (3" ID) The 6th gen sensor has about 30% greater airflow capacity (reads lower voltage for the same flow). At higher RPMs the accuracy of the 5th gen sensor can approach its limits. Using a larger housing lowers the voltage of any MAF, but you need to tell the ECU **** getting more air.
Yes, it supports many types of wideband sensors.
You still need the cheap VAG-COM cable for flashing, RR doesn't handle flashing the ROM, just modifying it. I saw a used (legit) Tactrix cable going for $100 on a buy/sell FB group.
There's next to nothing out there, at least not with any dyno proven results. Most of the guys who offer mail-in / remote tunes have proven their results with on a dyno and know what they're doing. The other guys who go and get dyno tuning done usually rely at least somewhat on the tuner at the dyno shop they are visiting to tune their car and may not have permission to distribute their tune. These rules hold true on the RR forum as well; unless you've tuned the thing yourself or have explicit permission from those who have made your tune, it is not yours to distribute. I've looked in the 350Z forum for tune data, and I don't recall finding anything noteworthy.
Interesting, ill have to look more into that sensor. I figured as much with the tune data, theres good reason why professional tuners are able to charge what they do and itd be counter productive for them to basically torpedo their own income.
dang this is heavy !, you mind as well do TB PNP upgrade, if you are doing the breathing mods, and are u staying N/A ? all this tuning work, be sure you are done w any big mods before ! =)
I already have an HR motor swap, which comes “stock” with the 75mm tb. And of course the upgraded 7th gen upper intake manifold. Fully intend to stay N/A, ofc going boosted would be cool but i just dont think this is the right car for it, being fwd and all. The way i see it, itd just be more power than the car could reliably put down without wheel hop and losing traction if i decided to turbo. On the flip side one could always run a more mild boost but it seems much easier for me to just throw in injectors and an intake along with an exhaust and tune that.
FYI, there are a few VQ guys that do mail order tunes for our 02.03 ecu. I don't know if they are still on the org but if you have FB they are all on there.
I forgot the others prices but no one was over $300 iirc
Also, their seems to be a new door opening regarding use of Uprev and 02-03 ecu's which is still in the works but would be a nice option to have. All the info is on FB.
I myself downloaded RR and tbh it seems complex af but I haven't really took the time to understand it. One day I will but for now I will be utilizing a vafc2 and maybe just maybe a mail tune until A) I understand how to use RR and/or B) the uprev 02/03 compatibility comes out.
My bro had a 5.5 auto and a vafc2 with 4inch intake and 440cc injectors and that thing pulled like a monster chirping 3rd gear in a auto going about 60-70mph. He also probably had sh!tty street tires but he would give a lot of cars a run for their money.
FYI, there are a few VQ guys that do mail order tunes for our 02.03 ecu. I don't know if they are still on the org but if you have FB they are all on there.
I forgot the others prices but no one was over $300 iirc
Also, their seems to be a new door opening regarding use of Uprev and 02-03 ecu's which is still in the works but would be a nice option to have. All the info is on FB.
I myself downloaded RR and tbh it seems complex af but I haven't really took the time to understand it. One day I will but for now I will be utilizing a vafc2 and maybe just maybe a mail tune until A) I understand how to use RR and/or B) the uprev 02/03 compatibility comes out.
My bro had a 5.5 auto and a vafc2 with 4inch intake and 440cc injectors and that thing pulled like a monster chirping 3rd gear in a auto going about 60-70mph. He also probably had sh!tty street tires but he would give a lot of cars a run for their money.
This was my plan initially but apparently none of these guys are able to do a mail in tune if you have larger injectors or a larger MAF housing. Which to me makes little sense because who would pay that much to tune only the most basic, simple bolt ons.. but thats their policies. If they could mail-in tune for my setup i would 100000% do that rather than teach myself how to do it.
Just ordered 550cc injectors and a tactrix cable the other day. Been trying to get in touch with CGR/doug sands for the intake but he doesnt seem to check his email or his instagram dm’s so im a little at a loss at how he manages to do business when hes so hard to reach. Been bogged down with midterms so i have not been able to put much time into reading up on this tuning stuff but its all still in the works for sure.
theres several other threads that im too lazy to dig up lol. But basically the consensus that ive read concerning 4” intakes is that running 330cc means adding tons of fuel, and having the injectors run at >90% duty cycle. My understanding is that adding fuel = some timing pulled (unless thats strictly a VAFC thing??) so that would mean less power. Also that high of a duty cycle is higher than intended for the injectors and the last thing i need is one of them to die and to lean out my new motor.
My other options were 440cc and 550cc. 440cc would be plenty to run safely as far as duty cycle goes (60-70% iirc) but apparently you still need to add some fuel. With 550cc the duty cycle is even lower, and in some spots you need to pull small amounts of fuel, which can indirectly yield some timing advance. All of this, ofc, is based on what others have said - the names i saw discussing this stuff were “og status” or otherwise proven to be extremely knowledgable so i took it as true. The general consensus i was seeing was that all things considered, the oversized 550cc injectors are the best option for the oversized 4” intake. I did see some posts saying 350z injectors work but again it requires adding tons of fuel and extremely high duty cycles.
The biggest factor however is probably the cost - 550cc for $240 shipped vs. nearly $500 for a set of 440cc injectors. Pretty much a no-brainer there for me lol.
This is an awesome thread......because you're trying to figure something out on your own and putting in the time to do it. Cheers mate.
Few tidbits from where I'm sitting........
- the 3.5" vs 4" debate is still ongoing and probably will as long as people drive 5.5gens lol.......#CGR and Nisformance have both tested them and reached different conclusions, and both stand by their results. As others have said, I'm not sure they're really all that different in the grand scheme of things. I support both of them with my pocket book, as they're both pushing the platform forward for the better. Pick one and go with it. I think both of them will help you get a re-flash if you buy their intake.....I know for sure Darren will.
- I have 440's for my 4" intake. I have a pre-made tune via UTEC though, so I don't have to self-tune like you're doing. As you said, 330's are too small for 4" intake. 550's are a bit overkill for n/a but they'll work.
- Doug is going through life changing stuff (moving, job stuff) so give him a bit to respond. If he doesn't get back to you in a bit text me I might be able to help.
- I'll be checking back in to see your progress, as at some point I'd like to learn how to tune as well.
So you already have the HR swap done, correct? but still running stock exhaust?
As the context of this thread is ECU tuning, I want to put to death the notion that intake size has any significant effect on required injector size. Injectors should be sized based on target (don't kid yourself) crank HP. For a N.A. VQ35DE if you can get 350 at the crank you've done a bang up job with your bolt-ons, mods, and tune! Based on a target of 350 BHP, with a VQ35 you need somewhere between 345 and 380cc injectors, depending on who's calculator you use; https://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-ca...tor-calculatorhttps://www.fueltech.net/pages/fuel-injector-calculator
The only effect that the intake tube size might have is a slight effect on the volumetric efficiency of the engine which would slightly affect the air flow rate, but given the pissing match about which is better it's safe to conclude the difference is marginal; probably within 2% of total crank HP. Nothing you'd have to consider when selecting injectors as you should be selecting injectors with more than a 2% safety factor.
Guys used to put big 550cc injectors in to compensate for the 4" intake as the voltage readings with the 4" intake were lower. The ECU then wouldn't add enough fuel, so the injectors were upsized just to get back to the right amount of fuel. Piggyback AFCs could compensate better for this, but piggybacks are just expensive work-arounds.
The 550cc injectors will work, they're just bigger than they need to be.
This is an awesome thread......because you're trying to figure something out on your own and putting in the time to do it. Cheers mate.
Few tidbits from where I'm sitting........
- the 3.5" vs 4" debate is still ongoing and probably will as long as people drive 5.5gens lol.......#CGR and Nisformance have both tested them and reached different conclusions, and both stand by their results. As others have said, I'm not sure they're really all that different in the grand scheme of things. I support both of them with my pocket book, as they're both pushing the platform forward for the better. Pick one and go with it. I think both of them will help you get a re-flash if you buy their intake.....I know for sure Darren will.
- I have 440's for my 4" intake. I have a pre-made tune via UTEC though, so I don't have to self-tune like you're doing. As you said, 330's are too small for 4" intake. 550's are a bit overkill for n/a but they'll work.
- Doug is going through life changing stuff (moving, job stuff) so give him a bit to respond. If he doesn't get back to you in a bit text me I might be able to help.
- I'll be checking back in to see your progress, as at some point I'd like to learn how to tune as well.
So you already have the HR swap done, correct? but still running stock exhaust?
Im opting for the 4'' mainly because thats what I have read more about, and because it is much cheaper. Totally understand about doug having other responsibilities, this stuff wont be happening for another month or two so Im certainly not in a rush. I must say the 3.5'' that nisformance offers does look very attractive considering its a complete kit - the fact that doug offers custom powdercoating is a big selling point for me as well though. I do have the HR swap done, still running beautifully. I have cattman headers on the car but still running the stock cat and catback - I have a 3'' system sitting in storage right now simply because I have not had the opportunity to leave my car at a shop over a weekend to have it welded together and whatnot. Ill be doing that before any of this tuning stuff for sure.
Originally Posted by freezer
As the context of this thread is ECU tuning, I want to put to death the notion that intake size has any significant effect on required injector size. Injectors should be sized based on target (don't kid yourself) crank HP. For a N.A. VQ35DE if you can get 350 at the crank you've done a bang up job with your bolt-ons, mods, and tune! Based on a target of 350 BHP, with a VQ35 you need somewhere between 345 and 380cc injectors, depending on who's calculator you use; https://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-ca...tor-calculatorhttps://www.fueltech.net/pages/fuel-injector-calculator
The only effect that the intake tube size might have is a slight effect on the volumetric efficiency of the engine which would slightly affect the air flow rate, but given the pissing match about which is better it's safe to conclude the difference is marginal; probably within 2% of total crank HP. Nothing you'd have to consider when selecting injectors as you should be selecting injectors with more than a 2% safety factor.
Guys used to put big 550cc injectors in to compensate for the 4" intake as the voltage readings with the 4" intake were lower. The ECU then wouldn't add enough fuel, so the injectors were upsized just to get back to the right amount of fuel. Piggyback AFCs could compensate better for this, but piggybacks are just expensive work-arounds.
The 550cc injectors will work, they're just bigger than they need to be.
Interesting. See, pretty much everything I read was saying that the 550cc injectors were the way to go with a 4'' intake. Is that because people were using piggybacks when this stuff was still in the trial and error phase? The way I was interpretting it was that 550cc were best because they required very little, if any, fuel added - and any time fuel gets added, some timing gets indirectly pulled. However what youre saying makes more sense to me, 550cc is definitely turbo territory. In your opinion, do you think I will run into any issues with these larger injectors? Or are they purely just bigger than I would have needed but will work fine for my application?
Tactrix cable came in the mail today. Injectors should be arriving tomorrow I think. Ive been bogged down with midterm bs but I managed to get romraider/nisprog/niskern setup on my laptop - Im hoping to pull my ecu perhaps on sunday depending on whether or not I have to work. I still need to get my wideband installed so I cant really do any tuning just yet - speaking of which, does anyone have suggestions for where to mount a wideband gauge? It seems there isnt much of a market for gaugepods for our cars, predictably - and Im not really keen to use one of those janky *** universal pod setups. On my 4th gen I used one of the empty switch squares on the dashboard where the dimmer and such are located, and made a bracket of sorts to mount the gauge there - not the ideal setup but it looked clean and was visible without being in the way of anything. Still open to other ideas though, I may just end up not mounting it since I would only really need it while tuning.
Interesting. See, pretty much everything I read was saying that the 550cc injectors were the way to go with a 4'' intake. Is that because people were using piggybacks when this stuff was still in the trial and error phase? The way I was interpretting it was that 550cc were best because they required very little, if any, fuel added - and any time fuel gets added, some timing gets indirectly pulled.
Back in the day, if you balanced you could safely fool the ECU with a larger intake housing and larger injectors; 550s are about 2x the stock size. With a 4" intake you have half the air velocity in the duct for the same amount of flow; 4"^2 / 2.75"^2 = 16/7.6 = 2.1 so this works out OK, particularly in closed-loop fueling operation where the ECU is monitoring the narrowband sensors. Piggybacks improved on this and could compensate for different housing sizes and/or injectors without needing to balance the injectors / duct size physically.
This is all unnecessary trickery now that we can tell the ECU what to expect for inputs, and how we want it to respond. We can adjust the fueling parameters within the ECU several ways and we have unrestricted access to ignition parameters.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
However what youre saying makes more sense to me, 550cc is definitely turbo territory. In your opinion, do you think I will run into any issues with these larger injectors? Or are they purely just bigger than I would have needed but will work fine for my application?
I don't think you'll have any major issues. You'll need to make sure you adjust "mTP100 - Base Fuel Scalar" after adjusting your K value, otherwise you won't use anything over 50% of the engine load maps.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
Im hoping to pull my ecu perhaps on sunday.
You probably don't need to download it, just check which version it is with a scanner, or RR Logger (Tactrix). It's more than likely been dumped already.
Originally Posted by Slamrod
does anyone have suggestions for where to mount a wideband gauge? It seems there isnt much of a market for gaugepods for our cars, predictably - and Im not really keen to use one of those janky *** universal pod setups.
I'd second the Ortiz pods recommendation. While I haven't installed mine yet, he makes a nice A pillar gauge pod. You can get it in 1, 2, or 3 pods too.
I ordered mine primed, I matched another stock interior part, had that put into a spray paint, and painted it so it's a perfect match to the rest of the interior.
You can also get dash pods from them, a lot of guys have those.
This was my plan initially but apparently none of these guys are able to do a mail in tune if you have larger injectors or a larger MAF housing. Which to me makes little sense because who would pay that much to tune only the most basic, simple bolt ons.. but thats their policies. If they could mail-in tune for my setup i would 100000% do that rather than teach myself how to do it.
Just ordered 550cc injectors and a tactrix cable the other day. Been trying to get in touch with CGR/doug sands for the intake but he doesnt seem to check his email or his instagram dm’s so im a little at a loss at how he manages to do business when hes so hard to reach. Been bogged down with midterms so i have not been able to put much time into reading up on this tuning stuff but its all still in the works for sure.
Interesting as I always thought that was the point of a reflash tune to get you moving when you do upgrade larger injectors and maf housing.
But yeah Doug/CGR has been hard to get a hold of lately. I was trying to get a set of brembo brackets for my brakes and I could never get a reply back. I posted a WTB on FB and everybody told me to hit up Doug as if I did not already know this LOL
But I do understand **** happens and people have their own problems going on so I just decided to wait it out until I found a member on here selling a set of brackets bnib.
I have some 03/04 Cobra injectors rated 39lbs at 39psi, so at 51psi they should yield about 470cc I plan to run these with a 4" intake on my 4th gen 3.5 swap and I have a set of VHR (G37/370z) injectors rated 384cc @ 51psi that I plan to use with a 3.5" intake on my 5.5 both cars will have a vafc2 until I can A) Get a dyno tune, B) Mail tune (Although from your comments it seems they do not offer reflash if you upgrade injectors/maf or C) Tune myself with Rom Raider hence why I am in this thread LOL
EDIT: I figured out why everything was messed up, and fixed it (next post), so this post has some questions that dont need answering anymore. I bolded the section that still needs attention, you can pretty much disregard the rest. Im leaving it up anyways just in case someone reading makes the same mistake I did.
Bringing this thread back to life! Im going to jump right in with a ROM I got off the romraider website. No plans to implement this stuff yet, just looking to toy around and get a feel for it first = in the meantime Ill be driving around tuned off my Apexi NEO.
So far, Ive changed my K value from stock (27,592) to a new K value of 22,078. The math here:
K value x (Old injector cc / New injector cc) = New K value
27592 x (315cc/560cc) = 15,520.5
Now for MAF... K value x (New MAF diam / Old MAF diam). Since injectors were also changed, I use that modified K value for the MAF formula.
15,520.5 x (101mm / 71mm) = 22,078
So, the new K value I will be working with is 22,078... unless I got my formulas wrong lol. Since the K-value affects the other tables, why didnt I see any numbers change when I updated my K-value? Or, does the ECU's math involving the K-value not take place until I start editing the other tables myself?
Going from there, it seems logical to go to the 'Fuel Target' table. Heres what I see:
Im not really sure how to make sense of it. RPMs are the Y-axis, ok, sure - but why is the range inconsistent? I dont get why it starts at 6k, goes to 8k, then back down to 500, and then back to 2500 - meanwhile everything inbetween those RPMs is missing? Why are RPMs that we cant hit being shown, and the whole middle of the RPM range is missing? Can someone explain to me what the logic is here? Im also not really understanding the color coding here. It seems red = lean (or getting leaner at least) and blue = rich, and green = ideal AFR. Im assuming all those red cells are areas that are in closed loop? If thats the case, shouldnt I be setting the target AFRs for the other cells around 12.8AFR (or whatever ideal AFR is for these motors)?
Kinda diving in blindfolded here it feels like lol. My apologies if Im mucking up simple stuff, and as always, thanks to everyone who lends a helping hand.
I figured out why my setup seemed so messed up! The ROM I downloaded (ECUID: 5Y703), which is for my specific ECU P/N, is *NOT* the ROM to use, even though it matches my exact ECU. The CORRECT one to use is ECUID: 6Y303. Despite having different P/Ns, the ECU hardware # matches, so they are effectively interchangeable. The first ROM I dl'd was incomplete and missing tons of stuff. The new one (6y303) has everything correct and updated. In case anyone reading is wondering where I am getting these downloads from: http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...p?f=35&t=11098
So this makes MUCH more sense, although Im still sorta grasping at straws. Going to start picking away at it and see what I come across. Right now Im pretty much going to each table, and then referring to both Nistune's and Uprev's user manuals to look up what those tables do and how they work - not an exact science since those are different programs than romraider, but they both are for tuning Nissans, so how the tables function should be basically the same even if the user layout is not. If anyone has alternate suggestions for learning, please!!! drop a line.
Edit: can someone help me make sense of ignition timing tables? Everything I am reading refers to these tables in terms of degrees, but the values I am seeing are not reflecting that. Heres what I am seeing:
One of the tutorials I am reading suggests lowering the timing across the whole map, so any rough changes elsewhere wont accidentally spike the timing to dangerous levels. For them its easy, you just highlight the whole map, and edit all the values at once using the top bar. But for me, how would I do that, since my values are not displayed in terms of degrees?
EDIT #2: So it turns out these values are apparently unique to Nissan. Their timing calculations dont use Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) degrees like everyone else. Instead, they calculate how much time it takes for the mixture to burn and fire when the cylinder is at 15-17 After Top Dead Center (ATDC). So the lower numbers mean lower timing, higher numbers mean higher timing. Pretty straight forward in how its orientated. So my new question here is: how can I safely adjust the ignition timing maps using these values? Like if I wanted to remove 2 degrees of timing across my map, how would I know how much "burn time value" I would need to remove in each cell? I cant just minus 2, since the values are not in degrees. How do I proceed here?
EDIT #3: After some more digging (Nistune's guides) it seems that the red sections of my ignition timing map represent cells where 'knock monitoring' is taking place. My understanding is extremely fuzzy, but I think this means that in these cells, the ECU is actively looking for knock, and will switch to the retarded timing map if too much knock is detected. Not really clear why this doesnt take place in all of the cells, or rather why these cells are specifically chosen - anyone able to explain? As far as the numbers, cells that are inside the 'knock area' (idk the proper term) have "128" added to their actual value. I cant figure out how to make it display in RomRaider without this "128" added to all of those cell's values, nor do I understand why 128 is being added in the first place - but it seems you just minus that 128 out and you get the actual burn time numbers. This still leaves me wondering how I can accurately equate burn time to BTDC degrees. Im also curious what this means with the 'knock area' part of the timing map - would editing those cells pull some of them out of the 'knock area' of the map, or vice versa, can some cells be forced into this area if i were to hypothetically put them in?
You need to read my thread on RR forum about how ignition timing actually works. The Uprev manual is outdated garbage with respect to ignition timing. There's some dialogue in the thread that should straighten you out.
Also, your definitions are out of date. Link on RR forums will take you to most up to date.
You need to read my thread on RR forum about how ignition timing actually works. The Uprev manual is outdated garbage with respect to ignition timing. There's some dialogue in the thread that should straighten you out.
Also, your definitions are out of date. Link on RR forums will take you to most up to date.
Is this the thread that you are describing? http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...p?f=65&t=15017
I found the definitions you were talking about. Heres a link for anyone following along: https://github.com/a33b/NissanDefs
Crazy how much functionality this has. The "hack" tab looks especially appealing . Will read up more and toy around with all of this and see what I run into. Thanks dude.
Originally Posted by Child_uv_KoRn
-2 with car gauge pro/NDS2 is the easiest way lol
Wow, is that really all I would be doing if I wanted to pull a couple degrees across the whole map? Like basically doing the 2 degree timing advance on NSD2, except this time im retarding it 2 degrees? Seems TOO easy lol. Only complaint would be having to go across different programs for tuning. I suppose with the updated definitions I could easily change it on RR now, but its good to know theres an easy shortcut.
1)My ECU is 5Y703. Im going to be using 6Y303 instead though, since to my knowledge, it is the one thats most defined for these cars. Since the ECU hardware is the same in-between the two, all I would need to do is just reflash like I would if they were the same software version, correct? Or is there an additional set of steps needed when going from one to another? I think its non-issue but I just want to make sure I wont end up bricking my ECU and being really stuck with all of this.
2)How do you guys monitor/log knock? Is there a way in NDS2 that I am not seeing? I know its doable when logging with the RR logger + openport2.0 cable, but I still havent gotten to configure all of that and get it up. Knock is probably one of the single most important factors when tuning, it seems. Kinda a general question, but Im curious how different people go about watching out for it.
Leave timing at +2 for final tune, then if you need to put in low octane or get bad gas, then you can reduce timing quick n easy.
You're not going to knock unless timing is stupid high. My peaking timing up top is 34* (iirc) and was tuned in summer heat.
Assuming KS is functioning correctly, you'd know if the ECU detected it, b/c it would go into hi-det map and you'd see timing drop multiple degrees.
NDS2 says this, but IDK how you're supposed to know the address when they like to change **** between ECU numbers: Address Watch function is used for monitor specific ECU memory addresses. By monitoring a memory address extra information can be retrieved that is not normally available using Consult II protocol. A knock sensor reading can be obtain using this method if knock sensor memory address is known.
Last edited by Child_uv_KoRn; 03-26-2020 at 02:20 PM.
Couple of minor issues to add. Anyone able to shed some light on nisprog? The instructions in the sticky on the RR forums appears to be outdated. Added the solution to these issues I had in italics, in case anyone runs into these same snags down the road.
- The .ini file that needs to be edited is much different from what is shown in the thread, as well as any guide I could come across. It appears to just have a bunch more features, but idk, i know nothing whatsoever about code, idk how all that stuff works. I tried editing the file as per the instructions in the RR thread - but no luck. Can anyone who is familiar just go over the instructions and see if they are accurate still?
-Editing the .ini file is still exactly the same as the RR instructions. You basically just change the com port #, add "set dev 1" and add the kernel location, just as the instructions state. Everything else you can leave alone.
- The download for nisprog itself seems to be faulty, or maybe im just dumb. I cant find any .exe file to actually run nisprog, it doesnt seem to be included in the folder that is available for download off of the RR thread. Do I get nisprog from somewhere else? Is it hidden somehow?
-The download from the RR sticky is indeed broken for Nisprog (seems to be missing the .exe file). Use this link instead, DL and unzip the folder to where ever is convenient. https://sourceforge.net/projects/nis...3b.7z/download
EDIT: Got it to work, Ill update this post later with links. HOWEVER...
I didnt get the kernal set up correctly in the correct location to work. The ECU is now dumping successfully, but without the kernal its gonna take over an hour. Is there a way to pause/stop it from dumping so I can reconfigure? Its not letting me input any keys/commands inside of nisprog while its dumping, so idk how to make use of any of the commands there.
-I flipped a coin and exited the program while it was dumping. No ill effects (DO NOT DO THIS THE OTHER WAY AROUND ie; REFLASHING, OR YOULL PROBABLY BRICK YOUR ECU!!) I also found out why the kernel was not working. It is spelled KERNEL, with an E, not KERNAL. Make sure your spelling is correct! This is the reason why I couldnt get it to work.
EDIT2: Figured it all out. Successfully pulled the ROM off of my ECU using nisprog w/ npkern, this turned the memory dump time from 90 minutes to about one and a half. All is good! Ill update this post later tonight with what I did wrong, how I fixed it, info for anyone following along, etc etc etc.
So I converted the Main Ignition Timing map from the 6Y303 ROM file into an excel chart that displays everything in degrees BTDC. Here is the map:
To my understanding, these values are displaying how the base ignition timing is modified, NOT the actual timing. In my case, base ignition timing is 17" BTDC (its 15'' stock but I did the 2'' timing advance on NDS2). So to get the actual timing numbers, you simply combine the base ignition timing (again, for me, its 17'') with the values on the map, and you get an approximation of what the actual timing looks like. For the knock window (area of the map that is highlighted red, which represents where on the map the ECU is aggressively monitoring for knock) its a little different; ALL values inside the knock window have 128 added to them, which is how the ECU for whatever technical reasons need those cells to be in order to tell they are part of the knock window. Anyways - you subtract the values in each cell inside the knock window from 128, and then combine those new values with your base ignition timing # (again, for me its 17"). Just one extra step for the knock window but basically the same thing.
And below, is the excel chart I made that shows all of this.
This should be exactly the same data as the map above - just displaying it in a more readily understandable format of approximate time of ignition BTDC.... at least thats what I believe based on what Ive learned so far lol. Anyone willing to give me a nod yes or no on whether im looking at this correctly? Again I know Im still flopping around in the kiddie pool with this, but since Im learning this with no outside help other than you guys and whats on the internet, Im going to be taking it a step at a time like this.
Another two questions to add:
1) I asked earlier but didnt get a reply on it specifically, is it ok to reflash my ECU to 6Y303, from 5Y703? Couple of things I read infer that this is perfectly fine (and expected, since 6Y303 is the only one that has complete definitions). Just want to be absolutely sure before I do anything.
2) In the RomRaider instructions, it states that the radiator fans should kick on when using nisprog if the kernel worked successfully. I did not have this happen, although the kernel definitely worked since I was able to pull the ROM off of my ecu. Im worried that *something* might not be set up correctly though, since the instructions say if the fans dont kick on, something wasnt done correctly. This in turn makes me very hesitant to reflash, since if something goes wrong, my ECU becomes a paperweight. Can anyone confirm that the fan's kicking on isnt a thing anymore? Like if I was able to use the kernel successfully to pull my ROM, I shouldnt run into any issues as such when reflashing, correct?
3) Jumping ahead a bit, but how does one extend the rev limiter? I know about raising the fuel cut, but what about the maps? How do I determine values when I dont have a base to work from, since the stock maps dont go that high?
Yeah, you can flash 6y303 over 5y703. Fans won't come on because the fans are run by the ECU, on later CAN ECUs the IPDM controls the fans and this is a fail safe behavior.
You're getting the idea for timing, but it doesn't have anything to do with your base idle timing. The trimming table is applied after the mean best torque calculation.
The ECU will interpolate as far as it can on the RPM axis. If your table axis only goes to 6600 and the limiter is 7200, it'll use the 6600 RPM value. Edit the axis as you desire
I have nothing of value to add to this thread, just wanted to chime in to say thank you for posting.
I've been meaning to do this same thing for a while now. I will be checking back here often to see how things progress for you . Hope you keep posting.
You're getting the idea for timing, but it doesn't have anything to do with your base idle timing. The trimming table is applied after the mean best torque calculation.
This has got me snagged right now. So I suppose I dont technically need to convert all timing values like i did on that excel sheet - I can adjust in degrees with the timing map as-is. However, I still want to know what those values actually are. How do I determine that? If im doing (17” +/- X = “BTDC) to convert the numbers on my excel sheet, and that isnt correct, then what is? Basically, what goes in place of the 17”? Like what timing measurement am I looking at that the map is displaying adjustments of? Im just not understanding where/how I find the ‘base timing’ (is this even the correct term??) if its not 17” like i thought it was. Is my excel sheet at all accurate or is it simply the right concept but wrong numbers? Is this something where I would essentially need to use RR logger to see the cells the ECU is accessing in real time, and correlate that with a datalog to see what timing is displayed - thus connecting the map valued to a BTDC degree value?
Another issue just popped into my head. I know in NY state when they plug your car in for inspection, they can see a bunch of information off of the ECU. Im concerned that if I flash to 6Y303, the inspection station will read my ECU as being from a 2003, and fail me, since it doesnt match my car which is a 2002. Do 5.5gen ECUs report VIN or model year? I know on 4th gens the ECU didnt report it as that feature wasnt built in yet - anyone know what year that started? IIRC, its this gen or 6th gen. Edit: I looked into it further, and apparently in NY you can swap an ECU and/or motor legally, as long as the ECU going in is the same year or newer; newer stuff only gets stricter with emissions, where as going to an older ECU is illegal since the older one could have less emission controls. So basically, even if the ECU does report being a 2003 when I reflash to 6Y303, this shouldnt cause me to fail.
Originally Posted by TSelanne
I have nothing of value to add to this thread, just wanted to chime in to say thank you for posting.
I've been meaning to do this same thing for a while now. I will be checking back here often to see how things progress for you . Hope you keep posting.
Cheers mate.
No problem dude. One of the main reasons I make threads like this is so I can ask questions and learn and get guidance from people who know more than I do. It also helps me cement all the ideas and concepts in my head when I right them out like this in my own words, and keeping a record of my learning process also helps if I need to jump back and go over something again. I pretty much treat the thread as my work notes. I figure putting it up for everyone else to read along is just the right thing to do, since countless other peoples threads helped bring me to the level Im at now. By the time im done here, I hope to have enough information compiled here that 3rd parties like you can easily access all the info and do everything yourself without a hitch.
02-19-2019, 08:14 PM
. Will read up more and toy around with all of this and see what I run into. Thanks dude.
