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My 2001 GLE (auto) won't start. This occurred right after I swapped my ignition coil packs and plugs. I can't figure how they may be related, and maybe they're not, but I thought I mention it as it did happen right after a repair.
I suspect it has something to do with park safety switch because I was able to start the car after the coil swap. Then, two minutes later, I was only able to start it in neutral. After driving the car about 10 miles, after shutting off, car will not start in P or in N.
The gear selector will move normally through the gears. However, the indicator in the cluster remains on D. I suspect that's why it won't let me start.
I replaced starter and battery 2 months, 2,000 miles ago.
Any thoughts? Any one have experience with this? Thank you in advance.
Last edited by pastaben; 10-07-2019 at 03:30 PM.
Reason: Update info
The gear selector will move normally through the gears. However, the indicator in the cluster remains on D. I suspect that's why it won't let me start.
^^^^^^ That's a clear indication there is a problem with your PN switch.
^^^^^^ That's a clear indication there is a problem with your PN switch.
Thanks. From my research, that's what I thought. It is cheap enough to just replace it and go from there. I'm not so good to be able to test the power coming from x pin. For the amount of work, I'll just replace it.
It was just really odd that it happened right after I swapped out the coils, which I am 99.9% positive has nothing to do with start up troubles like I experienced.
You didn't mention if your SES light was on. I should think you'd have an error code if the switch was bad. I'd suggest you first check the adjustments of the control cable and the switch.
Costee, good call. I had not thought of that. SES was NOT on. I just ran a code check, and nope. No codes, except for my P0303 and P1320 codes, which was what I was working on when I swapped out the coil packs.
The SES was not on. The only time the SES was on was a few days ago when all of a sudden, while I was driving, the SES started flashing, which led to my P0303 and P1320 codes. I swapped the packs and plugs and was able to take the car on a drive for about 10 miles on the highway, and no flashing SES, and the car drove smooth. No misfire or rough idle. I was able to go for a drive in this sequence:
After swapping coils, with no hint of further trouble:
1. Started car. Started right up. No hint of trouble.
2. Shut car off to go grab wallet.
3. Car would not start in park.
4. After a few tries, tried starting in Neutral. Started right up (tried this about 3 times).
5. Went for test drive. Car drove fine. Came home.
6. Parked car, shut off.
7. Car would not re-start in park.
8. Car no longer starts in N either. Been trying every few hours. No go.
I'll have to try adjustment in a couple of days. I don't think it is possible that I crimped any cables. The coils don't take me anywhere near the shifter cable. I'll go over the harnesses when it's light in next couple of days. However, I did not come near them working on the coil packs.
When I turn key to on position: Gear indicator in cluster is constant "D", no matter where gear shifter is.
My shifter moves normally. Notches are felt.
Cannot shift out of P without foot on brake. Shifts with foot on brake.
Security light goes off when I turn ignition to acc or on position.
Security light blinks normally when key is out of ignition.
The gear indicator by the shifter does not light up. (the general lighting for PRNDL are lit...the little lights indicating the position are all dark. Never paid attention to them before, but I'm thinking they should light up the gear where the selector is?
"the little lights indicating the position are all dark."
Oh those... Hmmm, I never noticed any other lights? Wasn't aware there even were any others.
I'll check again in the morning.
User1, Looks like you have the 5.5. I took another look this morning, my 5th Gen has general lighting which lights up all the PRNDL labels, but, the notches to the right of the labels are not supposed to be lit. In the daylight, it's just a physical orange indicator attached to the shifter which moves along with the shifter and makes the little window show orange wherever the shifter is.
I removed the INHIBITOR relay this morning, and jumped 6 and 7, and still nothing. What does this mean?
I'll have to find time to adjust the control cable.
The FSM AT-91 says it could also be "Ignition switch and starter". That is ONE item, right, as opposed to "Ignition switch" AND "Starter". The ignition switch and starter is in the steering column. I guess I'll swap out the PNP first, and if that doesn't do it, I'll try the Ignition Switch and Starter.
There's a troubleshooting for the PNP circuit, but I have to get to the TCM. Is there a more accessible port to check the voltage for the pins I need, or do I have to take apart the center console just to get at the actual TCM?
The FSM AT-91 says it could also be "Ignition switch and starter".
Yes, if there is a disruption of power supply. Check the SC section of the FSM, the page containing System Description. This is perhaps the easiest of the suggested diagnoses. Proceed by checking 15A fuse [No. 20, located in the fuse block (J/B)].
I think that since the gear indicator lights in the instrument cluster always indicates drive, the starter and ignition switch can be ruled out.
The park/neutral switch on the transmission is a dual switch. One side goes to the TCM and the other side goes to the inhibitor relay for the starter. The gear indicator lights are controlled by the TCM, the switch itself does not directly connect to the instrument cluster.
Since the gear indicator lights in the instrument cluster always indicate that the transmission is in drive, that could be a bad TCM or a park/neutral switch that is telling the TCM the transmission is in drive. I rule out the TCM itself because if the TCM was bad, the engine would still crank over. The logic behind this is the park/neutral switch is a dual switch, one side for the TCM, the other side for the starter. Both sides move together. So if the TCM were bad, the park/neutral switch mechanically could still be correctly indicating the transmission shift lever position and the engine would crank and start. But since the engine does not crank, the park/neutral switch is not moving with the shift lever.
2 possibilities - the park/neutral switch is bad or the cable from the shift lever is loose/broken off.
If you want to try this, pull the INHIBIT relay out. It is in the box in front of the battery, the row directly in front of the battery, the 2nd relay from the radiator. Put a jumper in pin 2 of the relay socket and ground it. This eliminates the park/neutral switch from the starting circuit. *** DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON *** The starter will now work ANY time you turn the ignition switch to the START position. If the transmission is in drive as I suspect, the car will instantly charge off down the road or through your garage wall. You better have both feet on the brake pedal when you try to start the car.
Wow. Thanks, DennisMik. That's a boatload of info there, and very understandable, especially why you don't think it's the TCM. I'll have to get to it in a few days, It's wet out, and and I don't have the new PNP switch, yet.
I'm going to try the jumper just for fun.
Visually, the cable looks okay.
Curious, why do you suspect the transmission is actually in Drive? I can move the shifter through the ranges. When I shift to neutral, the car will roll. When I put it back in Park, it stops.
I think the transmission may be in drive because the starter doesn't work. The park/neutral switch has contacts that energize the starter's inhibit if the transmission is in park or neutral. Since the starter doesn't work, my assumption is that the transmission is not in park or neutral. I assume the position of the switch to be in Drive since the D light in the instrument cluster lights up.
But with the additional info of you telling me that the car rolls when you move the shift lever out of the park position and stops rolling when you move the shift lever back into the park position does change my thinking. It tells me 2 things. First, the cable from the shift lever is attached to the park/neutral switch and is moving the switch's lever. Second, the mechanical movement of the park/neutral is moving the internal parts of the transmission, but not moving the electric switch part.
So it you get the starter to work and the shift lever is in the park position, the car probably won't move. But I am theorizing/guessing so having your foot firmly on the brake pedal is advisable.
But in terms of me being wrong, I definitely am wrong about the inhibit relay procedure I suggested. Removing the relay and grounding pin 2 won't work. Grounding pin 2 would make the relay energize, which is what the park/neutral switch does. The flaw to my thinking is that (DUH) the relay has to be plugged in order to be energized. If you were crazy enough to want to remove the relay box from its mounting and ground pin 2 from the bottom side, then you can leave the relay plugged in and the starter would work. Believe me, you are not that desperate.
What you want to do is remove the relay and jumper different pins in the socket. You need to jumper pin 6 of the socket to pin 7 of the socket. this pin 6 to pin 7 jumper will connect the ignition switch to the starter solenoid.
The question to ask is "how do I know what pin is # 6 and # 7?" If the relay has a schematic on the top of it, IGNORE IT, pretend it doesn't exist. It is not accurate. Look on the bottom of the relay where the pins are. There are tiny little numbers molded into the plastic next to the pins. Just remember that when you are looking the bottom of the relay, what you see on the left side is on the right side of the socket when it is plugged in
So grateful for the tip about the pins in the relay. Yesterday, I tried the 2 pin and the 6 and 7 pin, and nothing, so I was bummed. This morning, I checked the actual pin # under the relay, instead of the diagram on top of the relay, and voila! the car fired right up with 6 and 7 jumped. When I moved through the gears, with the car running, the indicator remained on DRIVE. I also, for the fun of it, started the car in R and in D, and started right up. I did have wheel chocks and foot on the brake, but the brake felt sufficient. The car did not lurch when started in gear.
Visually, the switch does move through the positions mechanically, which at least indicates the cable is not broken or kinked.
I'm going through these troubleshooting steps to try to figure out what is wrong. My part (PNP switch) should arrive tomorrow, and the plan is to swap it out and hope that's the problem. I'm hoping that the troubleshooting information thus far is enough to isolate the PNP switch as the actual problem.
OK, you got some good, valid, positive results. Love to hear that. I feel pretty sure that the park/neutral switch is the problem and replacing it will resolve the problem.
Thanks for all your help. Turns out it was way simpler than I made it, but i was glad to learn about how the switch worked, and to troubleshoot.
It was the PNP switch. I did not do a thorough examination initially, thinking I'd just get under the car once to replace the switch. Visually, the switch and cable looked to be moving from above. The problem is that the arm on the switch was broken. So, the transmission was moving through the gears when I shifted, but the switch was in the same position, D. Lesson learned. If I had seen the break earlier, would have spared the anxiety there was some electronic gremlin related to my ignition coil repair, and that it truly was just time for this arm to go.
WVE brand PNP Switch from Rockauto. Wasn't sure about the quality initially, being a $30 part. However, looks like it's from NGK, so probably okay. Initially, the quality didn't feel so good. The switch didn't seem to have clear detents. However, turns out the original one feels the same. The detent is felt from the actual transmission arm, not from the switch.
The reason the car was not starting was the broken arm on the switch (right). The hub was stuck in DRIVE position, not allowing me to start. The shift lever was physically controlling the transmission, so I was able to drive or reverse once I jump started the car, even though the indicator remained on D.
The original switch has a metal (aluminum) front, but a plastic back. The two halves are screwed together. The replacement from WVE (NGK) is plastic all around. No screws to hold it together. Both arms are plastic, so I suppose durability will be similar. The break in the original looked like it was some time in the making. Didn't look like a fresh break, and was crusty with dirt covering some of the break.
Let's hope nothing else is just time to break, for awhile.
Love it when the solution is in the VERY FIRST response you get. Did you put your eyes on the switch after maxiiiboy answered, or was the first time you saw the broken switch when you went to actually replace it?
Love it when the solution is in the VERY FIRST response you get. Did you put your eyes on the switch after maxiiiboy answered, or was the first time you saw the broken switch when you went to actually replace it?
Yup. After maxiiiboy's comment, I went and eyeballed the switch from the top of the hood. I moved through the gears, and looked each time. Looked fine (the broken portion was moving with the manual shaft). I did not get under the car to get an actual look, so I saw the broken switch when I actually went to remove the part.
Yup. After maxiiiboy's comment, I went and eyeballed the switch from the top of the hood. I moved through the gears, and looked each time. Looked fine (the broken portion was moving with the manual shaft). I did not get under the car to get an actual look, so I saw the broken switch when I actually went to remove the part.
Bummer! Of course it couldn't be obvious (visible)!
10-07-2019, 03:29 PM
