Attn: Berk Tuning & Frankencar
04-24-2002, 08:19 PM
#41
Originally posted by cobymoby
Sorry that I'm not poking around on this board every hour to respond.
Anyhow, rude comments aside, what that thread says is basically by removing the factory air box will be sufficent enough to allow the manifold pressure to have a zero vacume meaning that the intake is sufficiently "filling" the engine with enough air. Although this test is a clever one it doesn't do anything to tell us what the vacume was (or wasn't) on the way to redline. The engine may be able to peak out at redline but what if your engine is gasping for air along the way? The test also doesn't show if the engine was under load during the test. Was the guy just reving it or did he drive it and see the pressure at zero?
Nevertheless it does provide some insightfull information.
Sorry that I'm not poking around on this board every hour to respond.
Anyhow, rude comments aside, what that thread says is basically by removing the factory air box will be sufficent enough to allow the manifold pressure to have a zero vacume meaning that the intake is sufficiently "filling" the engine with enough air. Although this test is a clever one it doesn't do anything to tell us what the vacume was (or wasn't) on the way to redline. The engine may be able to peak out at redline but what if your engine is gasping for air along the way? The test also doesn't show if the engine was under load during the test. Was the guy just reving it or did he drive it and see the pressure at zero?
Nevertheless it does provide some insightfull information.
-steve
04-24-2002, 10:48 PM
#42
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great post Jeff
Originally posted by dmbmaxima88
if you want me and bryan can pack up and leave and not try to expand maxima aftermarket . . .
if you want me and bryan can pack up and leave and not try to expand maxima aftermarket . . .
04-24-2002, 11:07 PM
#43
I too apreciate Steve and his input at the ORG.... Oh by the way Steve, Hurry it up with my intake ! Im racing in May ! . iwant to BRAG about my Frankencar, the powdercoated Red one !!!!
04-25-2002, 11:43 AM
#45
Originally posted by dmbmaxima88
good points also bryan, i'd bet that is was done parked and not moving at which point that car does not suck as much air, as many of you can tell by reving you car in neutral it doesn't sound as mean as it does when you are moving because it's not sucking as much air. and once again, other factors play into the hp side of the intake like smoothness and intake velocity.
-steve
good points also bryan, i'd bet that is was done parked and not moving at which point that car does not suck as much air, as many of you can tell by reving you car in neutral it doesn't sound as mean as it does when you are moving because it's not sucking as much air. and once again, other factors play into the hp side of the intake like smoothness and intake velocity.
-steve
I ran it at full throttle in gear. The vacuum maxed out just before the shifts. I only read the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. There was zero vacuum at lower rpm. I am not sure exactly where vacuum started building but somewhere above 5000 rpm approximately. I would have to be able to look at the vacuum gauge, tachometer and road ahead to get more readings. Need two buddies to ride with me. One for vacuum gauge, one tachometer and me the road ahead. Below 5000 rpm I don't think the factory intake is a restriction on my car.
Larry
04-26-2002, 06:34 AM
#46
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Originally posted by Y2KevSE
From Larry
I ran it at full throttle in gear. The vacuum maxed out just before the shifts. I only read the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. There was zero vacuum at lower rpm. I am not sure exactly where vacuum started building but somewhere above 5000 rpm approximately. I would have to be able to look at the vacuum gauge, tachometer and road ahead to get more readings. Need two buddies to ride with me. One for vacuum gauge, one tachometer and me the road ahead. Below 5000 rpm I don't think the factory intake is a restriction on my car.
Larry
From Larry
I ran it at full throttle in gear. The vacuum maxed out just before the shifts. I only read the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. There was zero vacuum at lower rpm. I am not sure exactly where vacuum started building but somewhere above 5000 rpm approximately. I would have to be able to look at the vacuum gauge, tachometer and road ahead to get more readings. Need two buddies to ride with me. One for vacuum gauge, one tachometer and me the road ahead. Below 5000 rpm I don't think the factory intake is a restriction on my car.
Larry
04-26-2002, 06:43 AM
#47
From Larry
I have modified my cool air intake to see if my vacuum lowers. The following pics show how I have cut out the center pillar and added a small pillar of my own made from hard wood dowel. As you can see, I contoured the leading and trailer edges to allow better flow.
http://www.fbody.com/members/LarryS/intakeI.JPG
http://www.fbody.com/members/LarryS/IntakeII.JPG
My initial tests indicate I have improved flow. On the 1-2 shift I got just flicker on the gauge, maybe 1/4" of Mercury, on the 2-3 zero. Previously I got about 1/2" on both. I can't explain the 1-2 flutter although I believe my transmission shifts lightly higher on the 1-2. If this is the case then perhaps my modification is marginal but improved. I am reasonably sure that with a good flowing exhaust system I will have mountains of vacuum to rid.
I have modified my cool air intake to see if my vacuum lowers. The following pics show how I have cut out the center pillar and added a small pillar of my own made from hard wood dowel. As you can see, I contoured the leading and trailer edges to allow better flow.
http://www.fbody.com/members/LarryS/intakeI.JPG
http://www.fbody.com/members/LarryS/IntakeII.JPG
My initial tests indicate I have improved flow. On the 1-2 shift I got just flicker on the gauge, maybe 1/4" of Mercury, on the 2-3 zero. Previously I got about 1/2" on both. I can't explain the 1-2 flutter although I believe my transmission shifts lightly higher on the 1-2. If this is the case then perhaps my modification is marginal but improved. I am reasonably sure that with a good flowing exhaust system I will have mountains of vacuum to rid.
04-26-2002, 07:02 AM
#48
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So I guess we're back to Steve's point, Kev. Is vacuum the only important measure of an intake's performance? If so, how would Larry explain dyno runs that indicate substantial horsepower increases for aftermarket intakes, all other factors being equal?
04-26-2002, 07:18 AM
#49
Larry never disagreed that there's HP gained w/ an aftermarket intake (see my previous post). He's saying that one can achieve it just by modifying the airbox.
Originally posted by y2kse
So I guess we're back to Steve's point, Kev. Is vacuum the only important measure of an intake's performance? If so, how would Larry explain dyno runs that indicate substantial horsepower increases for aftermarket intakes, all other factors being equal?
So I guess we're back to Steve's point, Kev. Is vacuum the only important measure of an intake's performance? If so, how would Larry explain dyno runs that indicate substantial horsepower increases for aftermarket intakes, all other factors being equal?
04-26-2002, 07:23 AM
#50
Originally posted by y2kse
So I guess we're back to Steve's point, Kev. Is vacuum the only important measure of an intake's performance? If so, how would Larry explain dyno runs that indicate substantial horsepower increases for aftermarket intakes, all other factors being equal?
So I guess we're back to Steve's point, Kev. Is vacuum the only important measure of an intake's performance? If so, how would Larry explain dyno runs that indicate substantial horsepower increases for aftermarket intakes, all other factors being equal?
Airflow intot the throttle body is probably not as extreme as my example, but you sort of get my point, right?
Most of these aftermarket intakes provide better flow than just unhooking the stock intake box.
This is my theory.....
04-26-2002, 07:27 AM
#51
Based on your Theory... would you agree that the Tornado Air Intake would work on cars? 
Originally posted by Y2KevSE
If you give the bottle a little whirl counterclockwise/clockwise, water comes out at a MUCH faster rate.
If you give the bottle a little whirl counterclockwise/clockwise, water comes out at a MUCH faster rate.
04-26-2002, 08:04 AM
#52
Originally posted by soundmike
Based on your Theory... would you agree that the Tornado Air Intake would work on cars?
Based on your Theory... would you agree that the Tornado Air Intake would work on cars?
But that causes a lot of turbulence.
04-26-2002, 08:05 AM
#53
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Originally posted by soundmike
Based on your Theory... would you agree that the Tornado Air Intake would work on cars?
Based on your Theory... would you agree that the Tornado Air Intake would work on cars?
04-26-2002, 08:15 AM
#55
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Originally posted by soundmike
Larry never disagreed that there's HP gained w/ an aftermarket intake (see my previous post). He's saying that one can achieve it just by modifying the airbox.
Larry never disagreed that there's HP gained w/ an aftermarket intake (see my previous post). He's saying that one can achieve it just by modifying the airbox.
04-26-2002, 08:15 AM
#56
Originally posted by soundmike
but what about the tornado effect? makes coke go down faster... why not air? :-D
ok. just playing with ya.
but what about the tornado effect? makes coke go down faster... why not air? :-D
ok. just playing with ya.
They have the right idea, but the product doesn't work as planned.
04-26-2002, 08:20 AM
#57
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Originally posted by Y2KevSE
Turbulence/flow should play a factor. Have you ever tried emptying a two liter bottle of water upside down? If you leave the bottle upside down, water would slowly blurp out while air goes in. If you give the bottle a little whirl counterclockwise/clockwise, water comes out at a MUCH faster rate.
Airflow intot the throttle body is probably not as extreme as my example, but you sort of get my point, right?
Most of these aftermarket intakes provide better flow than just unhooking the stock intake box.
This is my theory.....
Turbulence/flow should play a factor. Have you ever tried emptying a two liter bottle of water upside down? If you leave the bottle upside down, water would slowly blurp out while air goes in. If you give the bottle a little whirl counterclockwise/clockwise, water comes out at a MUCH faster rate.
Airflow intot the throttle body is probably not as extreme as my example, but you sort of get my point, right?
Most of these aftermarket intakes provide better flow than just unhooking the stock intake box.
This is my theory.....
If turbulence exists at the point where the meter is measuring vacuum, wouldn't it tend to affect the meter's readings? I'd expect there to be some variance, perhaps intermittent, as the measurements are taken. But I haven't heard that any such variance exists. Perhaps that's because the meter isn't sensitive enough to detect the variances. But if the meter isn't sensitive enough to notice the difference (assuming it exists), is the engine sensitive enough to react to it?
And no, remykins. The Tornado Air Intake is worse than useless! Do a search if you'd like to learn more about it. It's right up there . . . or should I say, down there . . . with the Electric Supercharger (http://www.electricsupercharger.com/).
04-26-2002, 08:46 AM
#59
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Originally posted by y2kse
OK. Let's play with your theory for just a minute, Kev.
If turbulence exists at the point where the meter is measuring vacuum, wouldn't it tend to affect the meter's readings? I'd expect there to be some variance, perhaps intermittent, as the measurements are taken. But I haven't heard that any such variance exists. Perhaps that's because the meter isn't sensitive enough to detect the variances. But if the meter isn't sensitive enough to notice the difference (assuming it exists), is the engine sensitive enough to react to it?
And no, remykins. The Tornado Air Intake is worse than useless! Do a search if you'd like to learn more about it. It's right up there . . . or should I say, down there . . . with the Electric Supercharger (http://www.electricsupercharger.com/).
OK. Let's play with your theory for just a minute, Kev.
If turbulence exists at the point where the meter is measuring vacuum, wouldn't it tend to affect the meter's readings? I'd expect there to be some variance, perhaps intermittent, as the measurements are taken. But I haven't heard that any such variance exists. Perhaps that's because the meter isn't sensitive enough to detect the variances. But if the meter isn't sensitive enough to notice the difference (assuming it exists), is the engine sensitive enough to react to it?
And no, remykins. The Tornado Air Intake is worse than useless! Do a search if you'd like to learn more about it. It's right up there . . . or should I say, down there . . . with the Electric Supercharger (http://www.electricsupercharger.com/).
I would never buy the tornadoair, it just seems like it might have a good theory behind it.
Like the saying goes if it looks too god to be true then it probably is. Ill take proven results from a trusted company any day. So despite all debate I will be ordering my intake as soon as I get the money
04-26-2002, 09:08 AM
#60
Originally posted by y2kse
OK. Let's play with your theory for just a minute, Kev.
If turbulence exists at the point where the meter is measuring vacuum, wouldn't it tend to affect the meter's readings? I'd expect there to be some variance, perhaps intermittent, as the measurements are taken. But I haven't heard that any such variance exists. Perhaps that's because the meter isn't sensitive enough to detect the variances. But if the meter isn't sensitive enough to notice the difference (assuming it exists), is the engine sensitive enough to react to it?
OK. Let's play with your theory for just a minute, Kev.
If turbulence exists at the point where the meter is measuring vacuum, wouldn't it tend to affect the meter's readings? I'd expect there to be some variance, perhaps intermittent, as the measurements are taken. But I haven't heard that any such variance exists. Perhaps that's because the meter isn't sensitive enough to detect the variances. But if the meter isn't sensitive enough to notice the difference (assuming it exists), is the engine sensitive enough to react to it?
04-26-2002, 01:33 PM
#63
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Victor in the General forum has summed the therory up the best!
I do like Kevin's water in the bottle theory though. You are actually creating a vacuum in the bottle is the reason the water doesn't flow out freely. The weight of the water creates the vacuum. Call it turbulance if you like but eliminate the turbulance, by putting a hole of correct size in the bottom, and guess what, the water flows freely, increasing the gpm, not cfm in this case. You have reduced the vacuum!
"does he mean that when the vaccuum is zero, that the engine is getting sufficient air? and when he is getting a reading then that would be that the engine is struggling to get efficient air into the manifold??"
04-27-2002, 11:21 AM
#69
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Originally posted by Larry
Victor in the General forum has summed the therory up the best!
I do like Kevin's water in the bottle theory though. You are actually creating a vacuum in the bottle is the reason the water doesn't flow out freely. The weight of the water creates the vacuum. Call it turbulance if you like but eliminate the turbulance, by putting a hole of correct size in the bottom, and guess what, the water flows freely, increasing the gpm, not cfm in this case. You have reduced the vacuum!
Victor in the General forum has summed the therory up the best!
I do like Kevin's water in the bottle theory though. You are actually creating a vacuum in the bottle is the reason the water doesn't flow out freely. The weight of the water creates the vacuum. Call it turbulance if you like but eliminate the turbulance, by putting a hole of correct size in the bottom, and guess what, the water flows freely, increasing the gpm, not cfm in this case. You have reduced the vacuum!
so air being displaced up is sucked up by the water that is flowing down ?
-Its all right there.
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