ohmitr

Trying to logically think through these two mods I can see no advantage to them. The front shock towers are so close to the firewall how could a FSTB make a difference and with the beam axle I don't see how the sway bar could improve handling. As I said in the title bar...please enlighten me.
Thanks

THEKNITE

iTrader: (1)

There are people on the org. that could expain it to you much better, but here it goes: FSTB by connecting the 2 strut towers makes the frame more rigid, since the frame moves and shifts.
RSB on the other hand is the Anti-Sway bar. While being fastened to the rear beam axle it stays in place, and at the same time by being fastened to the wheel trailing arms it helps to level the car during the turn, since as we know during turns the car leans to one side, bringing the other side up. The RSB being pushed down by one arm, pushes down on the other side.
Hope this helps a bit.
Good luck

BuddyWh

I am sure you will get several good explanations as to how they work... just let me add to that how well they work... and on my 2k1 GXE, I can say very well indeed.

These are neither snake oil nor appearance only mod's. I put my Cattman (Addco) RSB on and the improvement in understeer was incredible: in fact, it shifted to an annoying degree of oversteer that had to be corrected (by adjusting the bar's bushing locations and front tire pressure) to get more neutral steering. Of course, being FWD with no LSD it will always torque steer/oversteer under strong acceleration as one tire slips, but I understand to improve the roll performance even more and still correct for oversteer a stiffer front bar will help a lot.

Then I put on the FSTB (Courtesy Nissan's) and that made the car much more precise with quick steering inputs. Before (even with the RSB) highway lane changes felt like a boat: make steering input and wait for car to respond. Then countersteer strongly to complete the lane change. Now, just input and then straighten the wheel into the new lane of travel. Very precise, very quick.

I came to my Max from an Integra, at first I was dissapointed in the handling and missed the quickness of the Integra. I thought I had traded it for the Max's size and heavy V6 engine.. but once I put these on and balanced them right I think I have about 80-90% of the Integra's fun back... plus the Max's V6 performance and comfort.

IMHO, these are the most cost-effective handling mods you can make to your Max... and possibly the most effective regardless of cost. If trying to turn your Max into a true sports sedan this is the first mod you should put on, simply because it is so cheap, easy and effective.

BuddyWh

asu174

iTrader: (11)

My car is slammed and the suspension is as tight as all hell. I don't know if the RSB or FTSB would make any difference. Not to mention that there is not one windy road in this grid we call Phoenix.

I think I'm gonna pass on that mod. If I had stock suspension...definitely.

Galo

is a good reason why you probably do need the FSTB...with most of the suspension compliance removed, 5 will get u 10 that you are flexing the towers much more than those of us with more wheel travel in our suspensions....

freeze2k2

The best way to enlighten you would be to take you for a ride in my car....and around a favorite looping bend of mine.......at 85k/ph

asu174

iTrader: (11)

Suspension compliance? What is that? Ihave eiback springs with Ground Control coils. I didn't just cut the springs or anything...../.

Galo

was slammed so....how slammed is slammed? Meaning...how much did you drop? Anything over 2" reduces wheel/suspension travel dramatically, regardless of spring/shock comobination...

asu174

iTrader: (11)

Pic in my sig... I don't know how many inches it is exactly, but the Ground Contorls are all the way down in the front. It's pretty friggin low, but it handles great.

I would think that the FSTB and RSW get rid of the swaying caused by the awkward high suspension of the Max. I have no sway because I am gled to the ground.

Keven97SE

Actually, there is a fair amount of shock tower deflection that occurs under quick transitions (quickly changing direction of the car). The instantaneous loads on the shock towers is large. The instantaneous movement tends to muddy the steering response on the car. Also, when taking corners that have dips in them, the shock tower deflection makes the car steer in a less-positive manner. From my experience, the FSTB definitely improved both of these conditions on my 97 SE. With the FSTB, the car's turn-in is sharper (more point-and-shoot), but where the real improvement occured was when taking corners with dips or crests. The car felt much more solid with less wallow with the FSTB. It's a mild but noticeable and all-around positive improvement.

Without going into too much detail on the RSB, the stock multi-link axle, for as rigid as it appears, does twist when cornering. The RSB reduces the twist and keeps the rear end of the car flatter. Most noticeable is the reduction in understeer (car plow straight ahead when cornering too fast). The car still will not oversteer except in certain circumstances, but it in general handles more neutral. Again, from my experience, the car definitely corners flatter with the RSB, and understeers less. I often am able to get 4-wheel drift during overly aggressive cornering. There is a downside to the RSB, though: Harsher ride over bumpy corners.

Dany

iTrader: (1)

I had FSTB and RSB on my 2000 SE and while it made some difference, I don't think it was anything major.

Car still rolled in turns with RSB and FSTB.

Now on my 2002 SE I am installing H&R springs and going to pass on RSB(sold it already), FSTB is easy to install and I think I will probably put it on.

asu174

iTrader: (11)

How difficult would it be to make a FTSB from Home Depot stuff? I'm thinking a 1 by 2 and some L brackets....

I bet I can do it.

BuddyWh

I read of a guy making one out of 1/2" or 3/4" electrical conduit. Bent it over the top of the engine, hack-sawed to length, bent the ends around to pick up two of the strut bolts (each side), hammered the ends flat and drilled holes for the bolts.

He claimed it worked as effectively as the Stillen unit... just weren't too purty.

BuddyWh

jjs

but since you can get bars for around $50.00 these days, it doesn't seem worth the time, effort, or cost of materials to try that, but hey, gotta give credit for the attempt!!

BuddyWh

Here's another guy's homemade FSTB:

http://www.greghome.com/Greg's%20Gar...E/HomeFSTB.htm

asu174

iTrader: (11)

But you don't have the satisfaction of saying that you did it yourself. Gentlemen, I now have my next weekend's project!

Galo

rigidity: one of the major enhancements in the Gen 5 was improved chassis rigidity over the Gen4 -one of the reasons the Gen5 weight more then the Gen4.
I installed a FSTB on my old Gen4 and saw a noticeable improvement...not to say there wont be an improvement on the Gen 5 because there will be -but it wont be as noticeable as the same install on a Gen4....

CIRCO

iTrader: (1)

I had the incorrect Stillen RSB on my car for a day and I could tell that it made a world of a difference. I don't understand how you could say it wasn't major? I guess everyone has their own opinion. To me that was the most noticable mod that I did. Too bad it didn't fit properly. Gotta get another one soon.

KLOOGY

iTrader: (12)

All I know is my car used to float like CRAP, and the Bouncy effect scared the **** out of me, when I was racing a TL-S on the street, I thought I was gonna die ! Now I have Maxspeeds, a FSTB, and RSB. The car handles like you wouldnt believe. Other Max owners that have driven my car, feel the difference. I cant point to one of them as being the KEY, but all together, they make my car handle the way I want it to. As far as making it yourself.... WHY ? The Fstb, was $55, and the RSB was $115.. Those homemade things look like a broomstick bolted on to your car. Fellas.. we're driving $30K cars here... let's not start being stingy with the LOOT now !

Norm Peterson

What the RSB does is to increase the lateral weight transfer at the rear, which tends to "loosen up" the handling.

Briefly, more weight transfer in the rear = less weight transfer up front = better front grip = smaller slip angle.

The greater rear weight transfer ultimately results in a larger rear slip angle.

That combination of less front/more rear slip angle is an oversteering effect, which you can consider as adding algebraically with the OE amount of understeer. You may find you need to tune further to suit your own handling preference, hence BuddyWh's mention of having to revise his tire pressures (I am a little curious if you tried adding a couple more psi to the rear tires for better grip there though).

Re homemade FSTB's - I'm recently unemployed and thinking along those lines myself but I think that electrical conduit is really too thin-walled and 3/4" aluminum tubing too weak (unless it has quite a heavy wall thickness) to really be very effective. Maybe some of you with commercially available pieces could post some outside diameter and wall thickness dimensions and bar materials for reference. Any flexibility at the strut tower connections will reduce the bar's effectiveness, so the end details are also important.

Norm

asu174

iTrader: (11)

Dude.....uh....are you...like......a scientist or something?

CIRCO

iTrader: (1)

LOL!

KLOOGY

iTrader: (12)

If he's a scientist, he wouldnt be UN-Employed .... .... Those are some NICE wheels CIRCO ! Your Max looks sharp....

Hobert

I believe he is one better than a scientist, I think I remember him being an engineer.

freeze2k2

I recently put in the stillen 5 bolt rsb and i agree with circo, most noticable mod for sure!

BuddyWh

Norm: no, I haven't tried tweaking rear tire pressure... once I adjusted bushings and lowered front pressure I was so tickled with the way the car felt I just left it. I am so sure that if I just got better tires and wheels I'd have 99% of my Integra's fun-factor with all the Max's fun-factor (smooth powerful V6, comfortable ride). Just can't afford that solution, I'm afraid.

I didn't try the home-made bar, I only report someone made one. I agree the conduit and aluminum tubing seem too thin walled to work well, especially since they're bent to go over the engine weakening them substantially. But they reported they were satisfied with their performance. My Courtesy bar is hollow but obviously thick-walled aluminum, I'll pass on cutting it open to measure it though.

I think, if someone wants to be convinced cheaply, it might be worth while hacking up some conduit to try one. If favorably impressed they may be assured a proper solution will perform at least as well, doubtless better. And look better.

BuddyWh

scmaxima2k

iTrader: (3)

I have the Stillen RSB and front strut bar and i noticed a big difference in handling. I like them alot and i recommend them to anyone.

asu174

iTrader: (11)

And it might give me something to do on Saturday. By the way, would you guys do the front or the rear first.... Oh hell, I might just oder the front one for $55..

Norm Peterson

This is off the main topic, but Hobert's got it right. No big secret, it's right there on my profile page for all to see. And the engineer in me stays on duty when it comes to evaluating automotive related problems.

Engineering isn't immune to downsizing, I've been through it before and I wasn't among the first to be cut loose this time either. Life goes on. Aerospace was off big-time at one point during the 70's. In the wake of Enron, funding for power plant upgrade and engineering services has gotten a bit scarce.

Enough aimless rambling for one evening and I've got a 550 mile road trip tomorrow . . .

Norm

BuddyWh

A rear shock tower bar, by all accounts, is not worthwhile. It seems the package shelf in conjunction with the rear window frame makes for a fairly solid structure.

I really don't know which is the more worthwhile first mod... but a rear sway bar would be impossible to make yourself, unless you have access to a hydraulic bending jig that can form 1" spring steel.

BuddyWh

Norm Peterson

True, but you might be able to assemble a custom RSB from parts readily available from the various circle-track car suppliers. The arms are separate from the torsional part (which is available in a variety of diameters and lengths, and some are even tubular for less weight).

Ditto on the RSTB having little effect.

Norm