y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Shoot me down here if you can.

I've got a Berk Tuning intake and I still have my stock air scoop installed. I was thinking about what could be done to prevent heat soak from reaching the air filter, especially during the summer months ahead. I realize you're working on a heat shield, Steve. But I've got another idea.

The back of the stock air scoop isn't very far away from the air filter on my Berk Tuning Intake. In fact, I just measured the distance and it's about 6 inches from the back of the scoop to the filter. Now if there was a way to enclose the filter in an airtight compartment and attach the compartment to the back of the air scoop, what would you have? Answer: A true Cold Air Intake!

OK. What's wrong with my thinking?

asu174

iTrader: (11)

I cut the splash guard underneath and made a ram air ooglie OSCAI using the stock air scoop. I am planning on somehow extending the scoop to reach the filter, but I don't know about completely closing it in.

Neal728

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....8&pagenumber=1


Well, the air ducts leading from under the hood to the stock airbox could easily be routed and opened wider at one end to direct cooler air toward the filter on a HAI right? I think it's time for a Home Depot run, I'll let you guys know if I can figure anything out. I think that may work very well, and leave out the need to punch a hole in my wheelwell or have my filter so low in the engine bay....



Steal my thunder much? LOL it's a great idea, I am going to be looking at the same thing this week. Lemme know what you find out!

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the link, Neal. I actually pulled this thread out of one of my posts in that thread so I could bring it to Steve's and Bryan's attention.

There's a huge difference in pushing air and pulling air. A completely enclosed filter connected to the stock air scoop such as what I've described should be more effective in drawing (pulling) cold air into the intake than any attempt to "direct" (push) air toward the air filter using non-enclosed passageways. At least I think it should. It will be interesting to see how Steve and Bryan respond.

MAX2000JP

I was thinking about doing something like this a while back. I was gonna get some sheet metal and see if I could build a "airbox" around the cone. Actually, Ill see if I can get some scrap metal tomorrow and see if I can work something up.

[maxi-overdose]

iTrader: (3)

so pretty much we are going to create a close system similar to stock but we have an air scoop wrapping a cone filter instead.

or second, we lose the air scoop and bild a tube that connects from MAF adapter to the front, the filter will be at where the air scoop used to be.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Yeah. Both of those ideas might work. The problem with your second idea is that you still have to enclose the filter if it's under the hood in order to prevent heat soak. I don't think there's any way around that.

I figure Steve will probably bring up the issue of heat shields. I'm not sure if they're really effective. After all, your engine is putting out enough heat to cook meat! Do you really think a piece of metal between the engine and the intake is going lower the intake temperature enough to make a significant difference?

I like my idea better. But what the hell do I know?

KLOOGY

iTrader: (12)

The idea would be worth a shot. I mentioned before how on the Ford aftermarket, you can get a vented hood that has a low profile opening right at the point where our Filter sits on the Fraankencar, it has a collector under the hood that feeds directly into the filter. That would be something simlar to a Ram Air setup, which is also simliar to what you are describing. Your idea would work well though. Im afraid that new Injen setup is being fed hot air from behind the radiator ..

MAX2000JP

Your idea is smart. I totally agree with it. The FrankenCar heatshield is almost useless. A better design would be like this
http://www.grandprixstore.com/Mercha...001/tepcak.jpg

Thats what I wanna build, but with sheet metal and I believe is what Y2kse is talking about

[maxi-overdose]

iTrader: (3)

If I can relocate the filter to the front of the car...then I think the filter is close enough to the cold air source....is a heat shield necessary? I have seen eclipse's intake where the route their filter all the way to the front of the car...I am just a copycat.



u know what....I thought about it too. How well it is going to reduce heat from engine. Metal still absorbs heat and it will pass over to the cool side. I think what is it going to do is just to slow down the heat going to the filter. And once the car is running, u will have sufficient cold air blowing in from outside.

Man...I am not living in a hot area (San Francisco, 63F, 9am)...so I wonder will this mod be applicable for me...

Quote:

I figure Steve will probably bring up the issue of heat shields. I'm not sure if they're really effective. After all, your engine is putting out enough heat to cook meat! Do you really think a piece of metal between the engine and the intake is going lower the intake temperature enough to make a significant difference?

I like my idea better. But what the hell do I know?

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Well now that raises the damndest question. If a heat shield prevents hot air from circulating near the intake, does it prevent cold air from doing the same thing? I mean, is a heat shield smart enough to differentiate between hot air and cold air?

MichaelAE

iTrader: (1)

It makes a judgement call...

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

It plays God, in other words . . .

MichaelAE

iTrader: (1)

Morally speaking, yes.

asu174

iTrader: (11)

Well, it would be easy as hell to test this out with some of that silver AC duct piping that Matthew Deal used for his OSCAI. Just buy a big piece and run it over the entire filter. Get an adapter from plumbing that would go down to a 1 1/2 inch and clamp that aroung the output from the scoop. Right?

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

I hope Steve or Bryan show up here quick and save this thread!

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

i think an airtight compartemnt would still be semi restrictive to the operation of the Cone intake and wouldn't be totally beneficial. i feel that the heatshield design with a 2inch tube that extends down throguht the splash guard facing forward getting air rammed into it will work better. it will allow the engine to get all the air it wants because it's not air tight and it will be cooler air.

also thinking as i'm writing this it would be VERY hard to encase the filter in an ari tight compartment, it would have to be two pieces that bolt together. it's food for thoguth but i want to see how the heatshield with air vent works. i think it should be good.
-steve

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Well I'm not sure if this will help, Steve, but maybe it will give you some ideas:

http://www.prmracing.com/

cobymoby

iTrader: (2)

The "correct" (IMHO) cold air box would be this.

cobymoby

iTrader: (2)

I could make it but I don't think that the benefits would be worth it for the cost to the consumer. Remember, I'm king of bang for the buck! It would be a nice "home project" for you though.

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

ya that's my view too, i'm trying to keep my heatshield cheap too, like 30-40 bucks for the shield with tube.


-steve

raynist

We need something like this:

http://www.marchperformance.com/pg32.html

Page down to the version for the 87-93 Mustang. It has a 5 inch diameter hose and big scoop and enclosed air filter.

--Ray

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Right, raynist. The key, I believe, is the enclosed air filter.

I don't want to speculate on your design, Steve. I'd prefer to wait and see what effect your heat shield has on performance. But my suspicion is that an enclosed air filter like the type raynist and I have brought to your attention would provide the greatest gains.

I look forward to the release of your heat shield.

[maxi-overdose]

iTrader: (3)

nope....it just slow down the process of having cold and hot air saturated....so u can have cold air in the compartment while hot air is waiting to pass the shield.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

By that description, you could also have hot air in the compartment while cold air is waiting to pass the shield. And that, in a nutshell, is precisely my concern with an unenclosed air filter.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

I will be adding a thermometer to my intake to monitor the air temp into the throttlebody. I ran about 800 miles over the weekend through high heat temps and when I stopped at rest stops, the midpipe was cool. I don't think the heat is as great a we think when the car is moving.

redfly17

i agree with y2k on this one. an enclosed system would allow the intake to consume cold air almost 100% of the time allowing for maximum benifits. Even when the car is idle and not moving at high speeds cold air (even though not as much) would be forced to enter the enclosed system. The question at hand here is, is it really worth it? an enclosed heat shield system seems like it would leave a hole in my wallet. Perhaps steve's idea is the best intake heat prevention for the money. my 2 cents.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Well I certainly can't argue that point, redfly. As long as the 2" piping he's using to draw air from a cold air source doesn't become a restriction, there should be some advantages to his heat shield . . . at least theoretically.

Time (and dyno tests/track times) will tell.

MaximaMan77

If I'm not mistaken isn't the stock piping from the front of the car a smaller diameter than the MAF and TB. Some of the gains we see are from the removal of this connection regardless if you leave it in to blow colder air into the engine compartment or not.
In my 02 when you remove the airbox you remove a main holding point for this piping, So I just took it out.

But until we all get SC's PVC is very cheap and paintable. It's just figuring how to route it around the battery and a collector that would give you a kind of ramair effect. (Are the filters designed to take that much more airflow?) The box would have to be easy enough to access for cleaning with out blowing the lid off.

Sorry if the second part of this seems fragmented I have some ideas in my head and I need to look under the hood when I get home. I'll get back to you guys. But this is very doable.

djPlayboy

ive actually tried to make something to acheive this with some 3inch tubing and a large oil funnel wich was cut to form around the filter. i think thats proly what your talking about.... yeah its a great idea it cuts down on alot of heat goin to the filter

Shaydz

iTrader: (2)

Deezo,
Have you put a thermometer in you intake before? (oops, that sounded bad.) Seriosly, I want to do this to do some testing with an Injen I'm getting and not sure how to accomplish it.

Shaydz

MichaelAE

iTrader: (1)

Does the Injen have a port for the air temp sensor which mounts on the scoop, stock? Does anybody know? If so, I'll compare results between the temp of air in the FC mid-pipe (where my temp sensor is currently) and the Injen. Most days the air temp is pretty consistant in Seattle, so if I drive around for 30 minutes at around 10am and then do the swap, let the car cool and drive around again around noon...I should get a fairly consistant test environment.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

Str8ridin put this together:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=110241

I bought the same thermometer he used in his test. It has a 10 foot wire attached and keeps maximum temp readings in memory. I do have an sensor port on my MonsterFlow setup but I want to put the sensor closer to the throttlebody to measure the air temp just as the air reaches the throttlebody. The wiring will need to be insulated though. I will mainly use it at the track to keep track of the air temp readings.

Craig Mack

If me and deezo were to race, I would walk him with ease.

xfirepwr1

If I am not mistaking they have few pics of that on frankecar web site, if that is what u r talking about.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Is this what you were thinking of, xfirepwr1?

http://www.frankencar.com/intakepic2.shtml

deezo

iTrader: (3)

Sure you would. Stop whoring.

MaximaMan77

Well after taking a close look at the stock "scoop " I noticed some thing. It is nowhere near a CAI because it will suck air from where ever it can when stock or boxed.

I'm not looking at a box yet, I'd like to find the place we're gonna get the air from first then worry about how to enclose the filter.

Those of you that still have yours on lift your hood and take a good look at it. The section around the hood latch is lower than the hood itself and extends several inches to either side of the latch. Now lower your hood and watch the area in front of the "scoop". As you slowly lower your hood till it clicks into the latch you will notice the "scoop" is covered by that part of the hood and when you close it completely it is fairly if not completely obstructed. Any air going through there in a stock setup is purely from the engine scavenging for air, very little if any will be forced through the lower part on the hood. The foam tape on it is to help stop air from above the radiator and engine compartment from being sucked in. So why keep it on in the 1st place. I know from looking at it with the hood up it looks like it will do something which is why I left mine on in my 99. And yes in forward motion the air will be cooler, but somewhat restricted.

I like robsae's concept because it's the only place to get better air with out cutting the fender for a true CAI or like kloogy has found modifying, cutting, and or buying a new hood.
The splash gaurd should be fairly cheap too if you ever need to take the car into the dealer.

Now off to HD I go. I'd like to come up with something that not only looks a little better but is larger at the splash gaurd and is screened.

Let me know what you guys think.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

OK. I just went out and took a look at the stock air scoop. Now I'm not a mechanical engineer, so what I'm about to say is purely speculative on my part. But two things appear evident to me: (1) The stripping around the scoop and under the hood effectively isolates the intake from engine heat, and (2) the grill opening provides plenty of air circulation in front of the intake so that air flow is not restricted by the hood. If anything, the design of the grill and the hood seem to force air upward into the scoop opening, particularly when the car is moving. I'd call the entire arrangement quite a piece of engineering, all things considered.

I still like the idea of using the stock air scoop to provide a cold air source for a HAI with an enclosed filter. But once again, what the hell do I know? And I see absolutely no advantage in removing it. After all, it weighs exactly the same amount whether it's under the hood or in the trunk.

MaximaMan77

Are the hoods much different from 00&1 to 02? When I look up through the grill it looks like the hood blocks most of the front end of the scoop. The grill appears to direct the air right to the radiator and not up. Also when sitting hot air from the radiator will rise to the inlet.

In an 02 with the stock equipment removed, and in my garage, there is a lot more room to run piping from the front splashguard.

If you find a way to run a pipe from the scoop I'd like to see what kind of gains you get along with air temps at the TB or MAF. I'll keep going the way I am with robsae's approach, I found what I'm looking for down the HVAC isle but it has a BIG opening, and when I get to the box I'll share what I come up with.