How to give the 3.5 the top end legs of the 3.0
07-09-2002, 12:23 AM
#1
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How to give the 3.5 the top end legs of the 3.0
Assuming that the VQ35DE and VQ30DE-K share more similarities than they do differences, it surprises me just how radically different the dyno charts are between the two. I know the first gen of VQs were not top end power engines, but that seemed to change on the 5th gen applications. So what gives? Why is the 'new and improved' 3.5L motor digressing back to low and midrange power only? And why is it that the G35 and new Z car, which share the same basic motor, are more top end monsters. Here are several (totally unscientific theories).
1) Intake tracts. Examine the OEM intake system on a new 2002 Maxima. Now compare it to a new G35. The difference is amazing. The Maximas intake tract has a fairly narrow opening and immediately introduces a resonator and other kinks before the air is channeled to the filter. The G35 intake tract is ideal. It has a large opening in front for a direct charge of air as well as a second sourcing of air from the outside. The airfilter is within sight of the open duct (about 5-6"). The flow from that point is pretty much a straight shot back to the manifold. If you haven't seen a G35s underhood parts, take a close look at the intake system.
2) Exhaust system. I'm not as sure on this one. The 2000/2001 Maximas appear to have similar exhausts, with the exception of some changes in the Y-pipe design. I hope that an aftermarket Y-pipe opens this up. From all other accounts, the cat back piping is 'not that bad'.
3) Variable valve timing. As far as I know, 2002 was the first year for this year (not counting the VE engine family). Could the variation in valve timing be optimized from the factory for low end grunt and mid range power at the expense of high end power.
4) Secondary runner in the intake manifold. As these are designed to give good punch off the line initially than as rpms rise, open a second set of runners for more air, could they be muffling high rpm power. I'm shakey on this assertion since the 4th gen guys seems to gain alot of high end with the so called middle east variable intake.
5) ECU modification/timing retardation. Maybe this was an intentional design by Nissan to keep the Maxima a step below the more expensive G35 and Z car. Could it be possible that the ECU backs off the timing so the car peaks out well below redline much the way GM does the Camaro/Corvette rivalry.
Disclaimer: I am in no way shape or form a licensed mechanic or engine guru. I merely want to open this up for discussion with the afore mentioned possibilities with some of the guys here that actually are motor gurus.
1) Intake tracts. Examine the OEM intake system on a new 2002 Maxima. Now compare it to a new G35. The difference is amazing. The Maximas intake tract has a fairly narrow opening and immediately introduces a resonator and other kinks before the air is channeled to the filter. The G35 intake tract is ideal. It has a large opening in front for a direct charge of air as well as a second sourcing of air from the outside. The airfilter is within sight of the open duct (about 5-6"). The flow from that point is pretty much a straight shot back to the manifold. If you haven't seen a G35s underhood parts, take a close look at the intake system.
2) Exhaust system. I'm not as sure on this one. The 2000/2001 Maximas appear to have similar exhausts, with the exception of some changes in the Y-pipe design. I hope that an aftermarket Y-pipe opens this up. From all other accounts, the cat back piping is 'not that bad'.
3) Variable valve timing. As far as I know, 2002 was the first year for this year (not counting the VE engine family). Could the variation in valve timing be optimized from the factory for low end grunt and mid range power at the expense of high end power.
4) Secondary runner in the intake manifold. As these are designed to give good punch off the line initially than as rpms rise, open a second set of runners for more air, could they be muffling high rpm power. I'm shakey on this assertion since the 4th gen guys seems to gain alot of high end with the so called middle east variable intake.
5) ECU modification/timing retardation. Maybe this was an intentional design by Nissan to keep the Maxima a step below the more expensive G35 and Z car. Could it be possible that the ECU backs off the timing so the car peaks out well below redline much the way GM does the Camaro/Corvette rivalry.
Disclaimer: I am in no way shape or form a licensed mechanic or engine guru. I merely want to open this up for discussion with the afore mentioned possibilities with some of the guys here that actually are motor gurus.
07-09-2002, 03:41 AM
#3
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Re: How to give the 3.5 the top end legs of the 3.0
Originally posted by Maximus1000 Disclaimer: I am in no way shape or form a licensed mechanic or engine guru. I merely want to open this up for discussion with the afore mentioned possibilities with some of the guys here that actually are motor gurus.
If that's what your talking about, then think 'marketing'.
Your average 'merican wants torque. They want the "push you back in your seat" feeling when hitting the gas.
Enthusiasts want horsepower, and don't care if they have to keep the engine at 6,000 rpm to keep in the power band.
Witness Mustangs vs. S2000's...
07-09-2002, 05:02 AM
#4
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I think its all to keep the Maxima one level down, the maxima was always known for a top end beast especailly on the 5th gen 2k/2k1....why it wouldn't be ALL of the sudden?, i bet the major difference is the ECU,intake and exhust
07-09-2002, 05:03 AM
#5
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
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"Marketing" is the answer at the business end of things.
When Nissan tweaked out the 00-01 DE-K motor they were really pushing the 3.0 engine to the "MAX" and the 3.5L wasn't available yet. Now that the 3.5L engine is going into pretty much every Nissan, they need to vary the horsepower by application. If Nissan gave the Maxima the top-end of the DE-K then it'd probably be making 290 HP or so, which is going to be reserved only for their top-end products like the 350Z
Swaps from some of these higher end VQ's might be interesting, but a bit costly
From reading here, apparently someone found the cam specs, and the cams on the 350Z are a good bit hotter than on the Max's VQ35. That's not the only difference, though...
When Nissan tweaked out the 00-01 DE-K motor they were really pushing the 3.0 engine to the "MAX" and the 3.5L wasn't available yet. Now that the 3.5L engine is going into pretty much every Nissan, they need to vary the horsepower by application. If Nissan gave the Maxima the top-end of the DE-K then it'd probably be making 290 HP or so, which is going to be reserved only for their top-end products like the 350Z
Swaps from some of these higher end VQ's might be interesting, but a bit costly
From reading here, apparently someone found the cam specs, and the cams on the 350Z are a good bit hotter than on the Max's VQ35. That's not the only difference, though...
07-09-2002, 05:17 AM
#6
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Originally posted by SteVTEC
"Marketing" is the answer at the business end of things.
If Nissan gave the Maxima the top-end of the DE-K then it'd probably be making 290 HP or so, which is going to be reserved only for their top-end products like the 350Z
"Marketing" is the answer at the business end of things.
If Nissan gave the Maxima the top-end of the DE-K then it'd probably be making 290 HP or so, which is going to be reserved only for their top-end products like the 350Z
)
07-09-2002, 07:28 AM
#7
Originally posted by SteVTEC
From reading here, apparently someone found the cam specs, and the cams on the 350Z are a good bit hotter than on the Max's VQ35. That's not the only difference, though...
From reading here, apparently someone found the cam specs, and the cams on the 350Z are a good bit hotter than on the Max's VQ35. That's not the only difference, though...
According to DAVEB's part # checking the 350Z's engine internals are identcial to the maximas.
I am hopeing to see the 6th gen maxima put out 280 HP. If this is the case then I am expecting to see a intake manifold very simaler to the 350Z's on it. A intake manifold swap from the 6th gen may be a easy and effective swap
. We may be able to swap the intake and then swap in the 350Z's ECU 
. This could bring us up to 280+ HP very easaly.
07-09-2002, 07:52 AM
#8
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Am I blind because I've haven't seen any real proof showing that the 00-01 VQ is any stronger in the topend than the 4th gen VQ. I've looked thru all the timeslips and MadMax still has the quickest and FASTEST 00-01. He ran a 14.3X@96.XX with a y-pipe and intake. From what I've seen personally on the track and in the timeslips forum, including my car, there are quite a few 4th gens with I/Y/E running these kinds of ETs, and most importantly, trap speeds. The 00-01 VQ is clearly a better breathing motor than the 95-99, but the added weight and super heavy 17s have really taken the car's power advantage away, IMO. Weight is more important than sheer power.
As for the G35s performance advantage over the 2K2 Maxima, I think you guys need to be looking at the G35s platform and tranny. The G35 is RWD which makes it very easy to launch hard. The 5-speed tranny in the G35 is ideal for the power delivery of the 3.5VQ. When I drove a 2k2 auto, the motor felt held back by the wide ratio gearing of the 4-speed. The G35 doesn't have this problem. Mag numbers suggest 14.6-14.8@95-96mph in the G35 autos. This is pretty freaking good for a 3400lb car with 260hp. Keep in mind that these numbers aren't entirely different than the 6 speeds and even some of the 2k2 autos. ANother thing to remember is that mags correct thier times for atmospheric conditions. If guys in here corrected their times and mphs for conditions, we'd have some pretty amazing times floating around. My 14.6@98 would correct out to a 14.4@100mph even with the pathetic 2.30 60'. The G35 does have a better intake manifold design, but I'd bet you see anymore than 5-8hp difference between the Max/Altima 3.5 vs the G35 3.5.
Dave
As for the G35s performance advantage over the 2K2 Maxima, I think you guys need to be looking at the G35s platform and tranny. The G35 is RWD which makes it very easy to launch hard. The 5-speed tranny in the G35 is ideal for the power delivery of the 3.5VQ. When I drove a 2k2 auto, the motor felt held back by the wide ratio gearing of the 4-speed. The G35 doesn't have this problem. Mag numbers suggest 14.6-14.8@95-96mph in the G35 autos. This is pretty freaking good for a 3400lb car with 260hp. Keep in mind that these numbers aren't entirely different than the 6 speeds and even some of the 2k2 autos. ANother thing to remember is that mags correct thier times for atmospheric conditions. If guys in here corrected their times and mphs for conditions, we'd have some pretty amazing times floating around. My 14.6@98 would correct out to a 14.4@100mph even with the pathetic 2.30 60'. The G35 does have a better intake manifold design, but I'd bet you see anymore than 5-8hp difference between the Max/Altima 3.5 vs the G35 3.5.
Dave
07-09-2002, 08:16 AM
#9
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Originally posted by Dave B
we'd have some pretty amazing times floating around. My 14.6@98 would correct out to a 14.4@100mph even with the pathetic 2.30 60'. The G35 does have a better intake manifold design, but I'd bet you see anymore than 5-8hp difference between the Max/Altima 3.5 vs the G35 3.5.
Dave
we'd have some pretty amazing times floating around. My 14.6@98 would correct out to a 14.4@100mph even with the pathetic 2.30 60'. The G35 does have a better intake manifold design, but I'd bet you see anymore than 5-8hp difference between the Max/Altima 3.5 vs the G35 3.5.
Dave
i think we're a while away from doing any sort of meaningful swap. besides who would want to do such a thing when our cars will be older and we can move up to bigger and badder things like the 350Z. 
07-09-2002, 08:17 AM
#10
Originally posted by Dave B
Am I blind because I've haven't seen any real proof showing that the 00-01 VQ is any stronger in the topend than the 4th gen VQ. I've looked thru all the timeslips and MadMax still has the quickest and FASTEST 00-01. He ran a 14.3X@96.XX with a y-pipe and intake. From what I've seen personally on the track and in the timeslips forum, including my car, there are quite a few 4th gens with I/Y/E running these kinds of ETs, and most importantly, trap speeds. The 00-01 VQ is clearly a better breathing motor than the 95-99, but the added weight and super heavy 17s have really taken the car's power advantage away, IMO. Weight is more important than sheer power.
Am I blind because I've haven't seen any real proof showing that the 00-01 VQ is any stronger in the topend than the 4th gen VQ. I've looked thru all the timeslips and MadMax still has the quickest and FASTEST 00-01. He ran a 14.3X@96.XX with a y-pipe and intake. From what I've seen personally on the track and in the timeslips forum, including my car, there are quite a few 4th gens with I/Y/E running these kinds of ETs, and most importantly, trap speeds. The 00-01 VQ is clearly a better breathing motor than the 95-99, but the added weight and super heavy 17s have really taken the car's power advantage away, IMO. Weight is more important than sheer power.
Compare dynos of the VQ30DE and VQ30DE-K, and it's obvious that the former runs out of breathing room as RPMs go above 5000 or so (I'm working from memory). The variable intake runner helps enormously, allowing the VQ30DE-K to breathe better at high RPMs, and keeping the HP from falling off like that of the VQ30DE.
07-09-2002, 10:22 AM
#11
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Yeah, I was actually comparing dyno charts of 4th and 5th gens. Although Dave does bring up a good point. When my car was 100% stock down to the RE92 tires, I ran my fastest time of 14.2@99mph. The weather conditions were absolutely ideal. In the high 60s, 0% humidity and high pressure. On hotter days, with lighter wheels/better tires and a frakencar intake I've only been able to hit 14.3s at 97mph or so. Most of this is based on a subjective feel of the car too. With stock intake and everything else, I can most certainly feel the power fall off after about 5500rpms. I've never had my car dynoed (doh!), but it troubles me how I can feel the power drop off and yet trap out so dang high.
Has anyone had their car dynoed with a wideband O2 sensor? On Hondas, leaning out the higher rpms, from an air/fuel standpoint at least, opens up an already usually good top end. I presume a change to a more aggressive ECU (ala 350Z) would do that too. Also the idea of changing the intake manifold to the one in the 350Z is promising too. But, isn't the OEM Maxima manifold supposed to be pretty good with its variable intake already?
If I do keep the Maxima (I'll give you varying answers depending on the weather and time of day), I'd be more than willing to be a test pig of sorts for these types of swaps. Ofcourse, as most others, my mind races each day with the thoughts of trading for a G35 or 350Z.
Has anyone had their car dynoed with a wideband O2 sensor? On Hondas, leaning out the higher rpms, from an air/fuel standpoint at least, opens up an already usually good top end. I presume a change to a more aggressive ECU (ala 350Z) would do that too. Also the idea of changing the intake manifold to the one in the 350Z is promising too. But, isn't the OEM Maxima manifold supposed to be pretty good with its variable intake already?
If I do keep the Maxima (I'll give you varying answers depending on the weather and time of day), I'd be more than willing to be a test pig of sorts for these types of swaps. Ofcourse, as most others, my mind races each day with the thoughts of trading for a G35 or 350Z.
07-09-2002, 10:57 AM
#12
...
We should collect a few STOCK dynos to compare the 3.5L Altima and Max to start with. I'm betting the ~15hp is marketing BS, but it could be ECU tuning.
Once someone steps up with a G35 sedan(260hp/260tq) dyno and eventually a 350Z(280hp/?tq) and G35 coupe(~275hp/?tq), we may be able to see where some of these extra ponies are coming from.
It's probably just a lot of ECU, intake, and exhaust optimizing but some swapping might be possible.
Once someone steps up with a G35 sedan(260hp/260tq) dyno and eventually a 350Z(280hp/?tq) and G35 coupe(~275hp/?tq), we may be able to see where some of these extra ponies are coming from.
It's probably just a lot of ECU, intake, and exhaust optimizing but some swapping might be possible.
07-09-2002, 11:04 AM
#13
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I'll check some G35 sites. I'm sure at least one person has had their G35 dynoed by now. I saw, a few months ago I think, a dyno between a Max and 3.5Altima. They were almost identical with very minor variations. Do a search here and it should turn up. I think Russ may have put it up with a CL-S dyno overlayed on it.
07-09-2002, 11:26 AM
#14
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Originally posted by Maximus1000
I'll check some G35 sites. I'm sure at least one person has had their G35 dynoed by now. I saw, a few months ago I think, a dyno between a Max and 3.5Altima. They were almost identical with very minor variations. Do a search here and it should turn up. I think Russ may have put it up with a CL-S dyno overlayed on it.
I'll check some G35 sites. I'm sure at least one person has had their G35 dynoed by now. I saw, a few months ago I think, a dyno between a Max and 3.5Altima. They were almost identical with very minor variations. Do a search here and it should turn up. I think Russ may have put it up with a CL-S dyno overlayed on it.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....5&pagenumber=1
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