Toronto Star Maxima vs. Grand Prix review
06-03-2003, 05:43 PM
#43
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Originally posted by gmc74
6 speed manual, or 5 speed auto... how can they call it a sports car or sports sedan with a 4sp auto? that is a joke.
I need to pick that mag up tomorrow
6 speed manual, or 5 speed auto... how can they call it a sports car or sports sedan with a 4sp auto? that is a joke.
I need to pick that mag up tomorrow
06-03-2003, 06:21 PM
#44
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Originally posted by MONTE 01&97 SE
Well their are lots of cars that still have 4spd autos and perform quite well, its all in the gearing.
Well their are lots of cars that still have 4spd autos and perform quite well, its all in the gearing.
06-03-2003, 08:50 PM
#45
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Originally posted by gmc74
Most of the sports sedans have the 5speed auto now (BMW 3 series, Audi, Acura TL Type S, and others) and they perform better with them. I do agree that you can have a good performing car with a 4 speed, but 5 speed is almost always better.
Most of the sports sedans have the 5speed auto now (BMW 3 series, Audi, Acura TL Type S, and others) and they perform better with them. I do agree that you can have a good performing car with a 4 speed, but 5 speed is almost always better.
06-04-2003, 09:55 AM
#49
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Originally posted by gmc74
So you don't think they would perform better with a 5 speed auto? Everyone knows that the more gears you have, the better performance you can achieve
So you don't think they would perform better with a 5 speed auto? Everyone knows that the more gears you have, the better performance you can achieve
06-04-2003, 11:18 AM
#50
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sure it will still perform admirably, but it doesn't live up to it's potential.
It surprises me that it took this long for manufacturers to move to 5 speed autos. The better gearing definately helps the car get up and go. I need to go drive an SL so I can see what the 4 speed does, now that I have 3900 miles on my SE
It surprises me that it took this long for manufacturers to move to 5 speed autos. The better gearing definately helps the car get up and go. I need to go drive an SL so I can see what the 4 speed does, now that I have 3900 miles on my SE
06-04-2003, 12:10 PM
#51
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Re: Toronto Star Maxima vs. Grand Prix review
Originally posted by LeoB
interesting comarison of Maxima vs. a Grand Prix
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=969048871196
interesting comarison of Maxima vs. a Grand Prix
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=969048871196
06-04-2003, 01:26 PM
#53
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Originally posted by gmc74
sure it will still perform admirably, but it doesn't live up to it's potential.
It surprises me that it took this long for manufacturers to move to 5 speed autos. The better gearing definately helps the car get up and go. I need to go drive an SL so I can see what the 4 speed does, now that I have 3900 miles on my SE
sure it will still perform admirably, but it doesn't live up to it's potential.
It surprises me that it took this long for manufacturers to move to 5 speed autos. The better gearing definately helps the car get up and go. I need to go drive an SL so I can see what the 4 speed does, now that I have 3900 miles on my SE
06-04-2003, 04:01 PM
#55
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ALL IM AM GOING TO SAY IS, THE GTP NEEDS THE SUPERCHARGER TO COME UP TO RANKS WITH THE NEW MAXIMA, THE MAXIM AHAS NO SUPERCHARGER AND IF IT DID COME WITH THAT OPTION PONTIAC WOULD CRY, THAT TEST WAS SO BIASED, THEY USED THE HIGHEST MODEL GTP AGAINST A LUG. SL MODEL JESUS, THINK OF IT THIS WAY, NISSAN DONT NEED SUPERCHARGER TO SELL A CAR, GM DOES.
06-06-2003, 02:28 PM
#57
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Originally posted by gmc74
when you mix an auto with a manual you now have to factor in user error, slow reaction times, poor judgement. Assuming that the driver is perfect, the 6 speed should win.
when you mix an auto with a manual you now have to factor in user error, slow reaction times, poor judgement. Assuming that the driver is perfect, the 6 speed should win.
06-06-2003, 02:51 PM
#58
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Originally posted by brizsblackmax
ALL IM AM GOING TO SAY IS, THE GTP NEEDS THE SUPERCHARGER TO COME UP TO RANKS WITH THE NEW MAXIMA, THE MAXIM AHAS NO SUPERCHARGER AND IF IT DID COME WITH THAT OPTION PONTIAC WOULD CRY, THAT TEST WAS SO BIASED, THEY USED THE HIGHEST MODEL GTP AGAINST A LUG. SL MODEL JESUS, THINK OF IT THIS WAY, NISSAN DONT NEED SUPERCHARGER TO SELL A CAR, GM DOES.
ALL IM AM GOING TO SAY IS, THE GTP NEEDS THE SUPERCHARGER TO COME UP TO RANKS WITH THE NEW MAXIMA, THE MAXIM AHAS NO SUPERCHARGER AND IF IT DID COME WITH THAT OPTION PONTIAC WOULD CRY, THAT TEST WAS SO BIASED, THEY USED THE HIGHEST MODEL GTP AGAINST A LUG. SL MODEL JESUS, THINK OF IT THIS WAY, NISSAN DONT NEED SUPERCHARGER TO SELL A CAR, GM DOES.
However the GM 3.8L S/C fans could turn your statement around and say that the Maxima VQ needs more cams, variable intake, variable cam phasing, more valves, and other hardware to achieve roughly comprobable peak hp, less torque, and somewhat better city fuel efficiency in a package that may cost more, despite widespread use (this is speculating but conceivably correct), and is more complicated than the supercharged (that roots blower is elegantly simple) iron block/head GM OHV 3.8L.
However when it comes to noise emission from the engine, now that's a pro-VQ argument. I cannot imagine the pushrod blown 3.8L V6 (valvetrain and blower are notable sources of NVH) could be competitive at all to the VQ.
06-08-2003, 12:04 AM
#59
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Here's a letter that I wrote to Kenzie:
... and here's the reply that I got back, within a few hours:
Why is he talking about price? If price was a factor then the SRT-4 Neon would probably be the best car on the planet since it would outperform most cars out there today, at just around $20,000.
http://www.thetorontostar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1052251633588&call_pag eid=968867497088&col=969048871196
Hi Jim,
First, let me introduce myself. I am one of the many Nissan Maxima enthusiasts who post on the various online forums. On one of our forums, I saw a post about your article, in which you tried to go back and please GM after your first, not-so-favourable review to their Grand Prix. But this article, I must say, got me “pounding on the breakfast table while reading this story and screaming at my dog” – oh wait… I don’t have a dog and I buy my breakfast every morning.
Nissan has been quite ahead of it’s time right from the introduction of the 4th generation Maxima back in 1995. It looks like just recently that every other car manufacturer has been able to catch up and match the performance of the Maxima. I will be the first to admit that the newest Maximas have taken a step away from performance to take a step closer to luxury since that is what the Maxima is designed to be. But it is still quite a formidable beast among cars in it’s class.
Now, back to your article. I’m afraid that you have made a big statistical boo-boo here. Comparing the flagship Grand Prix GTP with every option, to the base luxury model Maxima is like comparing apples to oranges. You were comparing the performance attributes of those two vehicles but failed to take the best from both worlds. The least that you could have done is picked the 2004 Maxima SE 6-spd manual, as opposed to the 2004 Maxima SL 4-spd auto (not even 5-spd auto). That way you have the best that the Grand Prix has to offer vs the best that the Maxima has to offer. You could make the argument that it would be unfair to compare an automatic to a true manual transmission. Then I could make the argument that it is unfair to compare a supercharged 3.8L to a naturally aspirated 3.5L. So I do think that the flagship GTP vs the flagship Maxima (SE 6-spd) is a fair comparison of what the best each has to offer.
You compared a 2004 Nissan Maxima SL to a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix with a Competition Group Package (Antiskid system, upgraded variable-assist power steering, manual-shift capability, special axle ratio, head-up instrument display, trip computer, red-painted brake calipers, performance suspension, 225/55VR17 tires). Now the Maxima is a 4-speed auto bottom of the line while the Pontiac is a 4-speed Tap_shift (manual). So it's pretty much inevitable to say that the GTP won the drag, not by much but never the less it won, manual vs. automatic. If you wanted a fair comparison, again they should have used a 2004 Nissan Maxima SE with 6-speed manual against the Grand Prix, not an auto.
As for the split-mu brake test, I really don't think that there was as big of a difference in car control as you said there was. You state that the Maxima ended up "90 degrees to the direction of travel" on several occasions when braking hard, while the Grand Prix barely budges. Last time I checked, mu test were to be set up on a straight road with patches of water and dry road, not 2 wheel on wet 2 wheel on dry.
From what I know and read the Nissan Maxima didn't get spanked maybe beaten but not spanked. You may have written it so it sounded like so. If they wanted to compare a top of the line Grand Prix (supercharged) with a sport they should have compared it to the SE not a luxury model (SL). I also found it quite odd that the article stated that the first time you test drove a Grand Prix in Arizona the brakes where horrible, but this time around the car was perfect. I believe that GM was embarrassed by it's poor performance in the first run and gave you a Sports model that had every option on it to out perform the competition. I think this comparison had a predetermined winner in the Grand Prix from the beginning. I mean GM sure as hell wasn't going to make itself look bad twice. If you read the article you can't go more than 2 sentences before reading the words, “…and GM says this and GM gives us this statistic.” It shouldn't be about what the company says it should be about actual performance. Oh by the way did you know that the 2004 Grand Prix has a 3.8L engine plus supercharger while you compared that to a 2004 Maxima 3.5SL with no supercharger, which seems real fair… nice and even comparison. I realize that you are comparing factory vs factory and the GTP just happens to have a supercharger from the factory. But a “truly fair” comparison would be the Grand Prix 3.8 SE (no supercharger) vs the model of the Maxima that you tested. It would be like comparing the GTP to the Cavalier, I assure you. If you did do a fair test of the GTP vs the SE 6-spd then I assure you again, that the results would be quite the other way around if not worse.
All that being said, I do realize that your job in itself, when comparing one car to another, cannot please everyone. But that is part of the territory. It would however only make sense to compare apples to apples – even if that means that the end result is the same (GM looks bad yet again). You should have possibly picked the new Toyota Camry or new Honda Accord (I think the GTP still wouldn’t stand a chance against the Accord) if the goal was to please GM. An even better way to please GM and give the GTP a better chance would have been to compare the GTP to another domestic, like the Monte Carlo SS.
Hope I was able to clear some major flaws in your article. If you do see anything that I might have missed, please feel free to point them out. I would be curious to see what angle you were coming from while conducting some of these tests.
Thanks for your time.
Anish Ghosh
1995 Maxima SE 5-spd
Hi Jim,
First, let me introduce myself. I am one of the many Nissan Maxima enthusiasts who post on the various online forums. On one of our forums, I saw a post about your article, in which you tried to go back and please GM after your first, not-so-favourable review to their Grand Prix. But this article, I must say, got me “pounding on the breakfast table while reading this story and screaming at my dog” – oh wait… I don’t have a dog and I buy my breakfast every morning.
Nissan has been quite ahead of it’s time right from the introduction of the 4th generation Maxima back in 1995. It looks like just recently that every other car manufacturer has been able to catch up and match the performance of the Maxima. I will be the first to admit that the newest Maximas have taken a step away from performance to take a step closer to luxury since that is what the Maxima is designed to be. But it is still quite a formidable beast among cars in it’s class.
Now, back to your article. I’m afraid that you have made a big statistical boo-boo here. Comparing the flagship Grand Prix GTP with every option, to the base luxury model Maxima is like comparing apples to oranges. You were comparing the performance attributes of those two vehicles but failed to take the best from both worlds. The least that you could have done is picked the 2004 Maxima SE 6-spd manual, as opposed to the 2004 Maxima SL 4-spd auto (not even 5-spd auto). That way you have the best that the Grand Prix has to offer vs the best that the Maxima has to offer. You could make the argument that it would be unfair to compare an automatic to a true manual transmission. Then I could make the argument that it is unfair to compare a supercharged 3.8L to a naturally aspirated 3.5L. So I do think that the flagship GTP vs the flagship Maxima (SE 6-spd) is a fair comparison of what the best each has to offer.
You compared a 2004 Nissan Maxima SL to a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix with a Competition Group Package (Antiskid system, upgraded variable-assist power steering, manual-shift capability, special axle ratio, head-up instrument display, trip computer, red-painted brake calipers, performance suspension, 225/55VR17 tires). Now the Maxima is a 4-speed auto bottom of the line while the Pontiac is a 4-speed Tap_shift (manual). So it's pretty much inevitable to say that the GTP won the drag, not by much but never the less it won, manual vs. automatic. If you wanted a fair comparison, again they should have used a 2004 Nissan Maxima SE with 6-speed manual against the Grand Prix, not an auto.
As for the split-mu brake test, I really don't think that there was as big of a difference in car control as you said there was. You state that the Maxima ended up "90 degrees to the direction of travel" on several occasions when braking hard, while the Grand Prix barely budges. Last time I checked, mu test were to be set up on a straight road with patches of water and dry road, not 2 wheel on wet 2 wheel on dry.
From what I know and read the Nissan Maxima didn't get spanked maybe beaten but not spanked. You may have written it so it sounded like so. If they wanted to compare a top of the line Grand Prix (supercharged) with a sport they should have compared it to the SE not a luxury model (SL). I also found it quite odd that the article stated that the first time you test drove a Grand Prix in Arizona the brakes where horrible, but this time around the car was perfect. I believe that GM was embarrassed by it's poor performance in the first run and gave you a Sports model that had every option on it to out perform the competition. I think this comparison had a predetermined winner in the Grand Prix from the beginning. I mean GM sure as hell wasn't going to make itself look bad twice. If you read the article you can't go more than 2 sentences before reading the words, “…and GM says this and GM gives us this statistic.” It shouldn't be about what the company says it should be about actual performance. Oh by the way did you know that the 2004 Grand Prix has a 3.8L engine plus supercharger while you compared that to a 2004 Maxima 3.5SL with no supercharger, which seems real fair… nice and even comparison. I realize that you are comparing factory vs factory and the GTP just happens to have a supercharger from the factory. But a “truly fair” comparison would be the Grand Prix 3.8 SE (no supercharger) vs the model of the Maxima that you tested. It would be like comparing the GTP to the Cavalier, I assure you. If you did do a fair test of the GTP vs the SE 6-spd then I assure you again, that the results would be quite the other way around if not worse.
All that being said, I do realize that your job in itself, when comparing one car to another, cannot please everyone. But that is part of the territory. It would however only make sense to compare apples to apples – even if that means that the end result is the same (GM looks bad yet again). You should have possibly picked the new Toyota Camry or new Honda Accord (I think the GTP still wouldn’t stand a chance against the Accord) if the goal was to please GM. An even better way to please GM and give the GTP a better chance would have been to compare the GTP to another domestic, like the Monte Carlo SS.
Hope I was able to clear some major flaws in your article. If you do see anything that I might have missed, please feel free to point them out. I would be curious to see what angle you were coming from while conducting some of these tests.
Thanks for your time.
Anish Ghosh
1995 Maxima SE 5-spd
Hi Anish:
At least you understand the challenges we faced trying to do this fairly.
But the Grand Prix SE (non-supercharged) is priced more like an Altima!
The objective wasn't to "please" GM. It was, primarily, to give you readers
a good story!
Also, we wrote about what happened the first time, then we wrote about what
happened the second time. We praised the Grand Prix for what it did well,
and praised the Maxima for what IT did well. I even said that despite its
"luxury" fitment, its handling and steering were better.
The split-mu thing is admittedly a rare occurrence. (Don't forget those
centre-bare winter roads..). But so is air bag deployment, and we wouldn't
buy a new car today without them, would we? And the Grand Prix was MARKEDLY
better than the Maxima in this test. No contest - as we said. I was able to
keep the Maxima more-or-less under control, but that was by "cheating" and
heroic driving! If Grand Prix can do it (and deliver a supercharged
engine!) why can't Nissan? Aren't they supposed to be technology leaders?
Another factor that you don't bring up which was important to us was price.
Even as tested, the top-of-the-line Grand Prix had a higher list price than
our SL Maxima. Part of that was that the Maxima had a Sat-Nav system, which
Grand Prix doesn't offer.
So the Grand Prix is a great performance bargain.
Personally, I'd probably drive a Maxima over a Grand Prix myself....
Cheers, and thanks for reading.
Jim Kenzie
At least you understand the challenges we faced trying to do this fairly.
But the Grand Prix SE (non-supercharged) is priced more like an Altima!
The objective wasn't to "please" GM. It was, primarily, to give you readers
a good story!
Also, we wrote about what happened the first time, then we wrote about what
happened the second time. We praised the Grand Prix for what it did well,
and praised the Maxima for what IT did well. I even said that despite its
"luxury" fitment, its handling and steering were better.
The split-mu thing is admittedly a rare occurrence. (Don't forget those
centre-bare winter roads..). But so is air bag deployment, and we wouldn't
buy a new car today without them, would we? And the Grand Prix was MARKEDLY
better than the Maxima in this test. No contest - as we said. I was able to
keep the Maxima more-or-less under control, but that was by "cheating" and
heroic driving! If Grand Prix can do it (and deliver a supercharged
engine!) why can't Nissan? Aren't they supposed to be technology leaders?
Another factor that you don't bring up which was important to us was price.
Even as tested, the top-of-the-line Grand Prix had a higher list price than
our SL Maxima. Part of that was that the Maxima had a Sat-Nav system, which
Grand Prix doesn't offer.
So the Grand Prix is a great performance bargain.
Personally, I'd probably drive a Maxima over a Grand Prix myself....
Cheers, and thanks for reading.
Jim Kenzie
06-08-2003, 12:59 AM
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,282
That is what cracks me up, his entire story revolves around price and transmission, when neither is important...
He picked the SL because of the 4spd and because it is the higher priced model, he should have picked the SE for performance and value, but he is obviously biased or stupid... not sure which.
He picked the SL because of the 4spd and because it is the higher priced model, he should have picked the SE for performance and value, but he is obviously biased or stupid... not sure which.
06-08-2003, 07:33 AM
#61
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 184
Originally posted by gmc74
That is what cracks me up, his entire story revolves around price and transmission, when neither is important...
He picked the SL because of the 4spd and because it is the higher priced model, he should have picked the SE for performance and value, but he is obviously biased or stupid... not sure which.
That is what cracks me up, his entire story revolves around price and transmission, when neither is important...
He picked the SL because of the 4spd and because it is the higher priced model, he should have picked the SE for performance and value, but he is obviously biased or stupid... not sure which.
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