04RedOpMax

I have heard mentioned in past posts about the "Black Box" that the 6th Gens are suppose to have. Anybody have the scoop on the "Black Box"? What does it do, how does it work? Where is it located? What kind of info does it gather? If you get your car airborne, will it tell you the altitude?

Holla back if you know anything about the mysterious BB!

Maxidriver

What I know it does, it gives you the speed you were going right before you get into an accident. Also if you applied the brakes, how long you skid and if you were wearing a seat belt. I'm not kidding.

msoemax

Our cars, and many other new vehicles, have a "black box". Essentially it records values such as speed, rpms, engine load, seat belts, airbags, abs/brakes, etc

Essentially it is a diagnostic tool on crack. Some one, big brother, decided it would be a good idea to monitor these values. Most cars already monitor/record simple engine features for the mechanic and the government (department of transportation). Some legislative body decided to be able to record some other important values.

In the long run I don't know how this will effect accidents and law suits. I believe that this has come about due to insurance companies and the IIHS. It's very helpful to analyze accidents and crash test when you have more data available to you. This is just another tool.

BTW don't even try asking where it is and how to remove it A)You will face stiff penalties if someone ever found out B) because I don't know where it is in the car.

BTW this was in the news today:
http://www.newsday.com/ny-libox0914,...span-headlines

SkoorbMax

The pontiac grand prix has had these for a while (or at least did). It was successfully used to help in convicting a guy who was speeding at gross speeds and killed a couple of people. The article was in C&D a year ago or so.

nemo

from what i've heard the black boxes are usually somewhere under the car where that lump is in the back seat... around the transmission/drivetrain area..... i'm not 100% sure though.

KCMAXX

iTrader: (22)

If you click the link at the top of the post, It takes you to an article on these things. Theres another link on the right side that lists all the cars equipped w/them. Ours do not. Check it out...

Tvetti

i thought our cars were not equipped with those... and we can speed as much as we like

MaxMus

Did anyone ever confirm with Nissan if the 6th Gen's have them or not?

Ralph Wigum

that would be pretty cool

msoemax

Your'e welcome for the link...BTW all of the cars on that list are domestic. I don't know about imports. someone else do the leg work, i got some speeding to do

Looking at the service manual, we do have the event data recorder. Sorry guys...don't do stupid stuff in the car.

lightonthehill

I can confirm what msoemax just said: the '04 Maxima most definitely has the 'black box'. And if one hopes to ever have warranty work done on the power train, the black box better be in place and untampered with.

Despite fairly widespread concerns of this box being government intrusion, etc, I would bet the black box is not only here to stay; its scope of data covered will probably expand. At some point, I would not be surprised to see it checking a hidden 'breathalyzer' sensor near the steering wheel, and cutting off the ignition if a reading above .08 registers.

Like everything else associated with progress: some good facets, some bad facets.

Poor Man's Max

also a benefit of owning a 95. no fancy crap, however my dad wont be speeding anymore now that i tell him this!

NismoMax80

iTrader: (6)

I thought it only kept recent items in memory so "they" can read your driving habits before an accident? And how could they convict you for an accident if the other party doesn't have this feature but are actually at fault or as much to blame for incident?

Monotaur

Yeah, I was also under the impression that it only kept a very, very short history?

lightonthehill

The 'very short history' part is the speed, braking, etc, which is tied to accident analysis. There are other types of info (not tied to accident analysis) kept for longer terms.

Monotaur

Any idea what this might be? Do you think the computer will keep the time from 2 months ago that I hit 105?

SkoorbMax

Yes, it keeps a short history now, but in time there is no reason why it can't hold a very extensive driving history, since data storage is increasingly cheaper.

People complain - hell I'd complain - but it's not something you need to worry about unless you're breaking the law. Undoubtedly it will eventually get to the point where all cars have these and they store tons of info. I'm sure you'll even get an insurance break. It will help massively with accident analysis. Sucks if you're reckless, but is great if you're not.It's just information that can help an investigation. If you say that somebody else was at fault for the accident, but the black box proves that you were driving at 120 before hand and your car was undergoing .82 G laterally just before impact and your throttle was at full, they'll know that you were being a bad boy.

I've said it before and I will say it again now: it will be increasingly difficult to speed and drive recklessly as technology allows for greater investigative knowledge in the future. Cars are becoming faster and faster, and yet finding themselves on roads that are more and more clogged with traffic, and confronting a police force that is more and more capable of taking out speeders. It's all but assured that we'll all have video cameras in our cars in the future, or GPS units or whatever. And if you don't want the government legislating it in, the insurance company effectively will. Imagine a 20% discount on your insurance premium if you're willing to keep a GPS unit in your car. Most people would do that. And those who don't? Well they must have something to hide - let's raise their premium even further. BTW this was already tested in one market, but scraped. I can't remember why, but I'm sure it will come around again.

Ironically we have, with every year, cars that are getting faster, and roads on which driving fast is ever more difficult and dangerous.

msoemax

There is a lot of new debate regarding the data event recorder. A lot of privacy groups are fighting so that information collected cannot be used against you.

California is the only jurisdiction in North America with any rules on the use of black box information. In that state, the information can only be used with a car owner's consent or with a court order.

There are tons of aticles out there on this subject. Just do a google search.
Here is a good start
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jul26.html

this one is good too
http://www.epic.org/privacy/drivers/edr_comm81304.html

Re Black boxes in cars-
"The prospect that we're all under constant scrutiny has social effects and legal effects that we haven't even contemplated," said Stephen Keating of the Privacy Foundation at the University of Denver. This quote is why we need to take the time to see all sides and make an educated decision how these data are used in the future. For now, i repeat, don't do stupid s#%t in your car...if you do, be smart about where you do it and how it will effect others.

off to cruise

SkoorbMax

This article I just came across on foxnews.I absolutely would get that if I have a son, when he turns 16. I almost wish that my Dad had one, since I had far too many brushes with death at highspeed. If I'd have known that my dad was keeping a tab on speed and cornering (which was often at the limits of the car) I'd have driven better

046mt

if anyone knows where the black box is located in my 2004 maxima let me know
thanx

REVOLUTIONZ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132056,00.html

here is a picture of it.

msoemax

I think I saw it in the car today. It's on the inside of the car in the middle console on the firewall. Look there...That's all i have to say.

Galo

I can tell you these 'black boxes' can also be very wrong sometime. When the post-October 2003 3.3 liter BMW M3's were blowing up left and right (literally), several BMW dealers plugged into the cars' black boxes (it's actually the memory of the OBD-II CPU) and 'recorded' (or so they said) readings of 8600 RPMs -which they used to tell the hapless owners that they hd been at fault for miss-treating their cars & charged them $12k for a new engine

This farce lasted until some chap with an SMG (sequential/semi-automatic manual gearbox) tranny (which will NEVER let you go past redling nor EVER downshift in a way that would force the car to over-rev) went into a BMW dealer with a blown engine, was told he had over-revved it, blah blah and he looked the service manager straight in the eye and said 'oh, really?? Pray tell me how that could happen in an SMG car?

The service mgr mumbled something, this guy went to the already-popular 'hate BMW' web sites that were discussing this problem and the treatment owners were getting....found several SMG owners who like him had been misled & took BMW to court based on the issue of the misleading RPM recordings in the CPU.

BMW backed off, fixed all engines & gave every M3 a 100k mile engine warrantee...they also found the root cause to be an bad design upgrade of the crank bearings which was implemented in October of '03.

Moral of the story: these recordings exist, but they are not foolproof nor golden

NismoMax80

iTrader: (6)

or the dealers simply/consistently lied ignoring the true data. unbelieveable. and we wonder why we need so many lawyers, then people abuse that too.

mjg

wow,

this is all news to me, frankly i don't believe it.

I know the scope of this discussion is only on our cars and privacy, but as was said in here, by i forget who, as technology advances greater and greater, the fact comes closer and closer to home that we do not live in a free place.

(I hope this isn't news to anyone)

Atomic_Ed

OMFG! When I first heard of this I was appalled as an American who believes that our forefather died for a reason. It seems to today their valiant efforts are all but forgotten with corruption and the shear desire to enslave the average citizens of this country into what equates to a cash crop by removing any shred of rights or privacy afforded to them by our constitution.
This is nothing more than another step towards Amerika and it's move towards socialism / communism. Joseph Stalin would be ecstatic to hear of this technology.

Don't get me wrong I consider myself a law abiding citizen and after 20+ years of driving every day, never yet had a ticket or accident thank God. But my privacy and rights as an American citizen state that I do not have to be forced into self incrimination. Essentially that is what these black boxes do is allow a driver to self incriminate since they own this box being paid for by the buyer which resides within their personal property (the car) and can be used to incriminate themselves. My God has everyone forgotten about your constitutional right to not be forced to incriminate yourself?

Now before some people say but if your not doing anything wrong whats the difference kind of stuff, that type of comment has nothing to do with your right to privacy. I have been in Information Technology now for 20 years and can tell you that if anyone thinks these devices can't be tampered with is fooling themselves. Besides technology no matter how good is not infoulable and how would you like to be in an accident one day that was truly not your fault but a bug in the firmware or the other driver's black box countermeasure device flashes your data to look as though you were speeding or whatever? If you think this can't happen guess again. As these intrusive gadgets become more commonplace I guarantee their will be hacks to deceive them.

If people really want good crash data and means to protect safe drivers, invading their rights is simply not a way to do it. I can think of numerous legitimate ways this can be acomplished legally and without destroying our rights or privacy. Like making people responsible for their actions with stiff punishments and fines instead of using these people as cash crops through repeated trips through our court systems. Another would be to make it alot more difficult to obtain a drivers license and require mandatory pre-licensing programs be taken and passed as pre-requisites. Other ways would be to truly offer great discounts to good drivers as incentive to be one. I could go on and on but that is not what the Goverment nor Insurance industries want. What they want is a larger cash crop of ignorant mind numbed citizens treated like cattle with little to no rights. Come on just think how this technology would evolve to tracking more and more data on people as the years pass and the desire for more revenue by corrupt agencies heigtens.

I don't know about the rest of you but as a supposedly free American citizen I have a right to privacy and to not self incriminate. These are just some of the things our forefathers and veterans after them had died to protect and I find it hard to fathom how so many of todays people seem to just roll over and almost help justify these corrupt actions.

I am IMO a good American, person and obey the law to the best of my abilities and happen to believe in the constitution. I love my family, friends and this country but I have rights as do all of us and this is simply unconsciounable adding spyware to our personally owned property.

Lets also look at this in another arena for those who still say if your not doing anything wrong who cares. Lets say the Goverment and other corporate money hungry organizations decide that it is for our own good to install cameras within our new homes. Well they can say it is for our own good and if your not doing anything illegal within your house then who cares right? They can say well if someone were drinking too much and accidentily fell asleep with an iron on or smoking and the home burnt down then the insurance shouldn't have to pay. Or maybe it could protect someone from child abuse or spouse abuse, etc right? Or further yet maybe it would catch someone that is illegally hooking into or descambling cable tv? You see how ridiculous but yet it is the same thing they are doing with these black boxes in our cars.

Sorry for the rant but my God this Amerika we are starting to inherit these days makes me sick to my stomach and the level of money hungry corruption is becoming to a level almost unimaginable IMO.

BTW.. I have a really good small flash file that exemplifies the evolution of spyware in our lives and is a really good example of what will happen. http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-AtomicEd

eLMo

When I was in the rollover, no one checked this. Even when Geico came to check it at the junk yard. They didn't even check if my father was speeding or not. Which he wasn't he just fell asleep from the long road from Atlantic City.

04blackmax

Very interesting the things you learn when people simply talk. I never knew about the blackbox. very interesting...

pae1215

iTrader: (3)

Ed, that is so true. its shocking whats becoming of making a simple call for an order of pizza

lightonthehill

eLMo - In the case you mentioned, there was no need to check the box. The cause of the accident was known, there was not a third 'aggrevied' party suing for millions, and there was no suggestion anything on the car malfunctioned.

In such cases, there is no need to waste time checking out details that won't change who is to blame. Too many other serious accidents waiting where there is great dispute as to who or what is at fault.

eLMo

Ah, ok, cool.

wsu

I bet the ACLU would have something to say about an automatic cutoff for a concealed breathalyzer test. What if a bottle of liquor broke in your car but you weren't drinking? What if there was an emergency and you needed to take someone to the hospital who was drunk, but your car wouldn't start because of who was riding with you? To me, cutting off one's car under these conditions (a surreptitious breath analyzer) would be going too far.

Atomic_Ed

I know and what most are not thinking about is in conjunction with the new facial recognition cameras being installed all over the place and the traceability trail left by those not using cash to pay for things and instead credit and debit cards, as well as the sheer amount of spyware residing on the average person's PC, all of which is stealthily taking away their rights, privacy and puts them in harms way for identity theft, corporate and govemrnet profiling and possibly exploits where clear benefit to the agencies are possible both in the way of profits as well as control / power.

Just wait and see how this all escalates and evolves to the point where mandatory DNA registration at birth will become something as touted for your own good. Then they can estimate your entire lifespan potential with all medical traits within your genetic makeup as well as a persons potential for criminal activity. This way the will class people based on their code such as worker /laborer, professionals, teachers, etc right from their birth. I suspect at that point it would become unlawful for that classed person to take on any other type of occupation. Additionally their diets, activities, cost to society will all be weighed during that classification process.

If we don't all start doing something about the removal of our American rights this kind of thing will happen. It is just a matter of when.

lightonthehill

Ed - I agree that our government is sort of 'flushing our Constitution down the toilet' with some things. And I also worry about where it will all end.

But the privilege of driving on public roads is a little different in my mind.

The public has a right to expect that government has done everything reasonably possible to insure we won't meet head-on with a drunk driver when driving down the highway with our family.

If this requires a breathalizer in every vehicle, then so be it. The sensor would have to be designed/hooked up in such a way that only the driver's breath is checked. As wsu brought out above, the car must be drivable even if passengers in the car are stoned out of their mind.

Granted, it is 'government intrusion'. But this particular intrusion is clearly for the public good.

I would hazard such a device might be on the Maxima as early as gen 7.

Atomic_Ed

Yes they are undoubtedly flushing the constitution down the toilet thats for sure. Unfortunately this practice is moving very fast now with technology advances being what they are. It won't be long at this rate until freedom will become nothing more than a memory of a lost society. Sad indeed.

I am also concerned with keeping drunk and unsafe drivers off the roads as well and want my wife and kids to be safe too. However forcing this or any other law enforcement through unconstitutional means like making me unknowingly purchase, maintain, operate and then ultimately exposure to corruption with equipment hidden within my personal property that can even self incriminate (elimintating the 5th) is seriously communist. I want drunk or any other kind of bad drivers off the road as much as anyone else but taking away my constitutional rights is not acceptable in any way shape or form. As I was saying before, there are many legitimate ways to enforce the law without resorting to communism. Make drunk driving penalties so severe that very few would even dare to partake in it. Raise the driving age to 21 years of age to start and make mandatory driving education programs prior to obtaining a license. There are multitudes of ways this same thing can be accomplished without communism being a part of it. Heck the Goverment could even enact laws that offer incentives to the alcohol industry for producing commercials that promote responsible driving. I could go on and on with many more ideas but the point is invading privacy and removing the rights of honest Americans is simply not the answer. Just think where would the same thinking end? They could start putting spyware in houses because a crazy neighbor might doing something illegal in their house that could affect their neighborhood or put them in bathrooms because you know a pervert or bad person could be lurking for a victim or better yet put them in schoolyards because during recess a shool kid might actually pray to God or something. You see how none of this makes any sense to me at all. The solution is not in surveiling everyone everywhere but to enforce and stiffen the laws we have and take the crooked legal system out of the cash crop business where they just keep making money over and over on repeat offenders. If the laws were alot stiffer these repeat criminals would have a single visit through the system for drunk driving and not dozens with the right money and lawyers.

The bottom line to me is that I believe in this country and for what it was founded for but I do not believe in communism. If I wanted to live under constant surveilance I would have moved to Russia a long time ago.

No matter how you slice it we as American citizens have all of the rights and priveledges afforded to us through our constitution and invading our rights even for supposedly good purposes is a violation of those rights plain and simple and if anyone thinks that those in power will not abuse their all powerful control with these systems is just fooling themselves. Power and corruption go hand in hand through every society throughout history which is why our country is so great. It balances these powers to maintain fairness through the voice of the people it governs not a voice telling the people how they are to be governed.

Also think about this, even a device that might be installed for checking breathe and such can and will be hacked and defeated by those who would drive that way to begin with. The defeats would be mass marketed and found on ebay as well. I can tell you I have yet to see any technology come out that is not exploited by those who wish to do so. This whole thing is nothing more than goverment controls with a guise of "its for your own good" smoke screening it.

Sorry for the rant but to me it is just ridiculous what is going on today.

jinsatx

Atomic_Ed,

Nice rant and I agree with you. Putting a chip in my car is okay for collecting data/statistics, but using it to prosecute me, without my consent, is a definate violation of the of the 5th amendment. You are right, where does it end. As of now, we have cell phones with mandated GPS chips that can be used against us. Is a GPS chip a good idea, yes and no, depending on how it is used. Is a breathalyzer in an automobile a good idea, yes and no, depending on how it's used. If you are a convicted drunk driver, yes, you have lost some of your rights by breaking the law, but putting it in every car is a bit much. Same goes for those chips they want to implant in your body for medical records, security clearances, and, in some instances location devices. It this a good idea, yes and no. If you choose to have this type of device because of a special medical condition, alzhiemers disease, special security needs, or, a possible kidnapping, it's still your choice. I for one wouldn't mind a chip with just my medical records because I'm allergic to just about all antibiotics known to man, and, if I was in an accident and they didn't see my medic alert tag or card, they could scan the chip before they killed me with the wrong antibiotic. However, that's me and my choice. Technology is all well and good, except if should be applied by choice and not mandated by the government. Damn all the black boxes to hell unless I choose to use one as my choice, or, I break the law and the penalty is to be tracked and checked on as part of my punishment.

**** Just a side note about auto breathlyzers.

Knew a guy who was busted for his second DUI, so the court mandated a rehab clinic and an auto breathlyzer. The day he got out of rehab he headed straight for his regular bar to drink. All he did was fill up his tank with gas and lock his truck with the engine running. At the end of his drinking escapade, he unlocked his truck and drove off. This went on for months until he got busted for his third DUI. At that point he got some jail time and a warning that a 4th DUI would mean state prison time in years not months. Well, that finally sobered him up, something a "black box" couldn't do. In case you all are wondering, there is another way to defeat that breathlyzer, at least the one's they use in my area. Be sure you have it put on a vehicle with a manual transmission then just clutch jump start it like a car with a dead battery, worked every time his car stalled and he had to restart it. Better yet, just borrow somebody else's car when you want to get drunk.

I'm with you Atomic_Ed, just enforce the laws on the books and make the punishment fit the crime. But never, ever, punish the innocent by having big brother always looking over their shoulder. You can't legislate morallity or common sense, you just have to punish the guilty and hope that the punishment acts as a deterent to others.

GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH, just don't watch my every move just waiting for me to screw up.

Atomic_Ed

Well said and very good points on this subject!

tubells

Hope I dont get anyone pissed off.... but this is what is called "H0me1@nd 3ecur1Ty" or whatever the current "gang of **$()@ in the Wit3 hou5e wants to call it.

As for the BB... it's a computer and will be hacked/tampered/messedWith sooner than later depending on the case in courts/mediaPublicity

Atomic_Ed

Actually I believe your mistaken on the homeland security since this started in the 90's during the clinton regime. It is only now people are starting to become aware of it and more and more manufacturers are installing them.

Make no mistake about it, this kind of thing is regardless of which party is in office or special interest groups lobbying for legislation.

tubells

I was .. thanks, now I know better