Nissan Announces 09 Maxima pricing.....
#1
#6
#10
They look like the vents in my Mazda 3 gt. They look pretty good and are very easy to adjust and use while driving. [IMG]
The deal breaker with the mazda 3 (versus a focus) was the dash layout actually. I will still reserve judgement on the max until I see it in person.
The deal breaker with the mazda 3 (versus a focus) was the dash layout actually. I will still reserve judgement on the max until I see it in person.
Last edited by maxger; 06-24-2008 at 11:26 AM.
#14
I will be waiting like you guys until the site is updated so that I can design my own Max. I do like the pricing its a great starting price considering this is the MSRP. However I am most interested in the pricing of options for the car. I am looking for a pretty well equipped model, more like fully loaded. Pricing on the packages and how they are combined will be interesting to see. I understand someone out there has the actual brochure. can you post option prices? or have you scan it? Thanks in advance.
#15
I will be waiting like you guys until the site is updated so that I can design my own Max. I do like the pricing its a great starting price considering this is the MSRP. However I am most interested in the pricing of options for the car. I am looking for a pretty well equipped model, more like fully loaded. Pricing on the packages and how they are combined will be interesting to see. I understand someone out there has the actual brochure. can you post option prices? or have you scan it? Thanks in advance.
#16
i'll take a wild guess the new sunroof won't be the standard $900.
the packages will likely be a bit more than before since so much more is offered.
I'm thinking $35k for a nicely equipped 09 is the best one can hope for.
unless the sit on the lots and don't sell due to the lack of tranny choices
the packages will likely be a bit more than before since so much more is offered.
I'm thinking $35k for a nicely equipped 09 is the best one can hope for.
unless the sit on the lots and don't sell due to the lack of tranny choices
#18
tigersharkdude - Thanks! $35,350 is a GREAT MSRP for the top of the line version of the '09 Maxima. Numbers such as $38 to $40K for a top-of-the-line '09 have been bandied about here on the ORG over the past three months. Thank goodness, those estimates were not correct.
With the economy in the pits, and with the normal slide toward 'invoice' after the first few months of excitement have worn off, I would not be surprised to see an astute bargainer drive home a 'maxed out' '09 Maxima for not too much over $32K by around Thanksgiving. In my opinion, considering all the goodies included on a maxed-out '09, that would be excellent value for the money on an exciting new car.
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NervinE - Considering past Maxima performance, you had what would usually be considered a 'sure' expectation about torque steer on the '09 Maxima. And I'm sure you aren't alone. But, thank goodness, you are very wrong this time! KiNgOfQuEeNz's wishes have come true. Of the five road tests of the '09 Maxima we have seen referenced here, one found very slight torque only under hard accelleration in turns, but none otherwise. A second tester found barely noticable torque only at maximum accelleration in turns, but none otherwise. The other three testers found no torque steer under any conditions, and were most impressed Nissan has finally licked this ubiquitous and previously omnipresent annoyance.
I know my son will be glad. Strong torque steer was the reason he chose the TL Type 'S' over the Maxima several years ago.
With the economy in the pits, and with the normal slide toward 'invoice' after the first few months of excitement have worn off, I would not be surprised to see an astute bargainer drive home a 'maxed out' '09 Maxima for not too much over $32K by around Thanksgiving. In my opinion, considering all the goodies included on a maxed-out '09, that would be excellent value for the money on an exciting new car.
------------
NervinE - Considering past Maxima performance, you had what would usually be considered a 'sure' expectation about torque steer on the '09 Maxima. And I'm sure you aren't alone. But, thank goodness, you are very wrong this time! KiNgOfQuEeNz's wishes have come true. Of the five road tests of the '09 Maxima we have seen referenced here, one found very slight torque only under hard accelleration in turns, but none otherwise. A second tester found barely noticable torque only at maximum accelleration in turns, but none otherwise. The other three testers found no torque steer under any conditions, and were most impressed Nissan has finally licked this ubiquitous and previously omnipresent annoyance.
I know my son will be glad. Strong torque steer was the reason he chose the TL Type 'S' over the Maxima several years ago.
#19
I predict that this car will sell extremely poorly. In fact, it will be the worst selling Maxima ever. Given the price of gas, very few people will buy a car that gets 19mpg city (and requires premium?) . Look for 5k discounts off sticker rather quickly.
#20
I was all in with the new Max but gave me a bit of a stumble when i saw "Remapped for premium gas only". After doing the math though its only an extra couple hundred dollars a year compared to the 08. I'm not sure how many people will sit down and do the math.
#21
Without trying to impugn the judgement of any of my beloved personal acquaintances who drive Maxima, honesty forces me to admit that, in talking with many of them, I find they bought the Max because they loved the style, loved the image they felt the car gave them, loved the way the car drove, and loved all the bells and whistles and things that made life comfortable while driving. Within reason, MPG was never a serious concern for them.
Being even more honest, two drivers I know who have driven Maximas for over fifteen years have never put one drop of premium gas in their vehicles, and never will. The way they use their Maxima (as a roomy, comfortable and reasonably impressive way to make it to their Tupperware parties) is not impacted by any reduction in performance based on octane. To be even more brutally honest, that reduction in power has been undetectable in my style of driving also, which is why I have used only regular in my 6th gen for almost two years.
Granted, the re-mapping of the 7th gen will make the octane difference more noticable for drivers who have performance high on their list of 'needs'. But, although I demand many things from my vehicle, I am perfectly happy with less HP. The Maxima has more power than 80% of drivers need anyhow.
Several times recently around where I live, the difference between regular and premium exceeded 50 cents a gallon. Regardless of the fact that, because of the doubling of the price of gas, that was, percentage-wise, similar to the traditional 20 cents difference, I found 50 cents difference to be unacceptable. When we get back to a situation where the difference between regular and premium is less than forty cents a gallon (always was less in some places), I will probably step up my octane grade again. Especially in the '09.
Yes, MPG will be a factor wth more buyers than it once was. But the real problem was for folks driving behemoths that got 10 MPG in the city. Improving their MPG by 5 MPG will save them 50% on gas. But stepping up from the Maximas's current city MPG to a vehicle getting 5 more MPG in city driving will only save around 25% on gas.
Those who crunch numbers for a living say it means a great deal to move from a vehicle getting 15 MPG on the open highway to one that gets 20, but means only half as much savings to go from one getting 30 MPG on the highway to one getting 35. The 'crunchers' are exactly right.
I get around 28 MPG on freeway trips, often have my wife and either grown children and/or grandchildren on board and have absolutely no intention of giving up the regal comfort, room and things like heated steering wheel and air conditioned driver's seat to jam into a smaller car for any paltry 5 to 10 MPG increase in MPG.
I personally feel the new Maxima will sell at a time when several similar cars are not selling as well. We will see.
Being even more honest, two drivers I know who have driven Maximas for over fifteen years have never put one drop of premium gas in their vehicles, and never will. The way they use their Maxima (as a roomy, comfortable and reasonably impressive way to make it to their Tupperware parties) is not impacted by any reduction in performance based on octane. To be even more brutally honest, that reduction in power has been undetectable in my style of driving also, which is why I have used only regular in my 6th gen for almost two years.
Granted, the re-mapping of the 7th gen will make the octane difference more noticable for drivers who have performance high on their list of 'needs'. But, although I demand many things from my vehicle, I am perfectly happy with less HP. The Maxima has more power than 80% of drivers need anyhow.
Several times recently around where I live, the difference between regular and premium exceeded 50 cents a gallon. Regardless of the fact that, because of the doubling of the price of gas, that was, percentage-wise, similar to the traditional 20 cents difference, I found 50 cents difference to be unacceptable. When we get back to a situation where the difference between regular and premium is less than forty cents a gallon (always was less in some places), I will probably step up my octane grade again. Especially in the '09.
Yes, MPG will be a factor wth more buyers than it once was. But the real problem was for folks driving behemoths that got 10 MPG in the city. Improving their MPG by 5 MPG will save them 50% on gas. But stepping up from the Maximas's current city MPG to a vehicle getting 5 more MPG in city driving will only save around 25% on gas.
Those who crunch numbers for a living say it means a great deal to move from a vehicle getting 15 MPG on the open highway to one that gets 20, but means only half as much savings to go from one getting 30 MPG on the highway to one getting 35. The 'crunchers' are exactly right.
I get around 28 MPG on freeway trips, often have my wife and either grown children and/or grandchildren on board and have absolutely no intention of giving up the regal comfort, room and things like heated steering wheel and air conditioned driver's seat to jam into a smaller car for any paltry 5 to 10 MPG increase in MPG.
I personally feel the new Maxima will sell at a time when several similar cars are not selling as well. We will see.
#22
I would not agree that the Maxima will be the worst seller of all Maximas. I also do not see these things flying off the dealer lots. Yes there are many that have been waiting for the car and will buy right away.
But I will tend to agree that with the economy in the shape it is in, and so much competition from other manufacturers, people losing jobs, others are worried if they will have a job next month. I for one am not going to purchase right away. I will wait at least 6 months to hear what bugs they need to fix and also to see how good the deals at dealerships get. Trust me people, new car or not, all car dealerships are offering or going to be offering very sweet deals to move inventory.
But I will tend to agree that with the economy in the shape it is in, and so much competition from other manufacturers, people losing jobs, others are worried if they will have a job next month. I for one am not going to purchase right away. I will wait at least 6 months to hear what bugs they need to fix and also to see how good the deals at dealerships get. Trust me people, new car or not, all car dealerships are offering or going to be offering very sweet deals to move inventory.
#23
Well, since this thread began with a post on price, and although we know the base and SV prices, we may still have a few questions about 'top end' price, I jotted down a few numbers from the window sticker of a loaded '09 at my dealer. Doing this was difficult, as the temptation was to either stand back and admire the aggressive lines, or sit in the driver's seat and enjoy the interior.
Premium or Sport packages can only be added to the SV, not the base S, so we start with the SV:
SV price - - - - - $31,990
Splash guards - - - -$170
Mats, incl trnk- - - - $180
Premium pkg - - - - $3450
Destination chg - - - $660
-------------------------
Total - - - - - - - $36,450
If being bought by an Arab oil sheik, add:
Appearance pkg & etch -$1494
That price includes everything I could ever want on a vehicle, including the new black double roof, which really looks very snappy on the radiant silver car I was checking.
I feel certain the 'Sport' package will be very similar in price to the 'Premium' pkg.
It is my plan to hold off until the 'newness' wears somewhat, this recession continues to deepen, and the dealers become somewhat desperate. By Thanksgiving, I believe I can drive this 'Premium' package equipped car for $33K. That is a lot of money, but actually this is clearly less than the price of most cars equipped this well.
I continue to be excited!
edit - If we subtract the delivery charge and the non-mandatory splash guards and mats, we are very near the $35,350 'top of the line' price tigersharkdude gave us yesterday. For the 'Sport' package, his number might be right to the penny.
Premium or Sport packages can only be added to the SV, not the base S, so we start with the SV:
SV price - - - - - $31,990
Splash guards - - - -$170
Mats, incl trnk- - - - $180
Premium pkg - - - - $3450
Destination chg - - - $660
-------------------------
Total - - - - - - - $36,450
If being bought by an Arab oil sheik, add:
Appearance pkg & etch -$1494
That price includes everything I could ever want on a vehicle, including the new black double roof, which really looks very snappy on the radiant silver car I was checking.
I feel certain the 'Sport' package will be very similar in price to the 'Premium' pkg.
It is my plan to hold off until the 'newness' wears somewhat, this recession continues to deepen, and the dealers become somewhat desperate. By Thanksgiving, I believe I can drive this 'Premium' package equipped car for $33K. That is a lot of money, but actually this is clearly less than the price of most cars equipped this well.
I continue to be excited!
edit - If we subtract the delivery charge and the non-mandatory splash guards and mats, we are very near the $35,350 'top of the line' price tigersharkdude gave us yesterday. For the 'Sport' package, his number might be right to the penny.
Last edited by lightonthehill; 06-25-2008 at 11:50 AM.
#25
I'm new to being a fan of the Maxima, but some how I find it hard to believe the new Maxima will be the worst seller. I personally have never liked any Maxima until this one, so maybe it will be the new fans that will be buying them. The price alone eliminates most car buyers as the majority of car buyers fall between the $15k-25k range (I don't have the stats but I bet it can be proven).
#27
landoniandeux is probably quoting the approximate total of the dealer sticker added on after the car is delivered. That sticker includes a bunch of 'packs' most folks have no intention of paying.
Either that, or something very unusual was added to what is already a really loaded vehicle.
Either that, or something very unusual was added to what is already a really loaded vehicle.
#29
Ilyak - I hope you asked him to break down the price, because if he quotes you a total that includes his 'standard' one to two thousand dollars of 'dealer add-ons', then you have no real idea of what the true MSRP of the car is, or what you might actually be able to get the car for.
#31
Nissan Announces 09 Maxima pricing.....
Nissan Announces 2009 Maxima Pricing
New Style, more performance, and flagship quality.
Nissan North America, Inc. announced pricing on the all-new, flagship 2009 Nissan Maxima, which on sale now at Nissan dealers nationwide. The seventh generation Maxima returns to its heritage as “The 4-Door Sports Car,” combining thrilling performance with premium sedan comfort, quality and amenities. It features all-new sports styling, a driver-oriented interior and an enhanced 290-horsepower 3.5-liter DOHC V6 engine – offering 35 more horsepower than the previous generation Maxima and better fuel economy (EPA estimated 19 mpg City/26 mpg Highway versus 19/25 mpg for the 2008 Maxima).
The 2009 Maxima is offered in two well-equipped models, Maxima 3.5 S and Maxima 3.5 SV, each equipped with standard 3.5-liter V6 and intelligent Xtronic CVT™ (Continuously Variable Transmission). Prices start at a Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP)* of $29,290 for the Maxima 3.5 S and $31,990 for the Maxima 3.5 SV.
“The 2009 Maxima 3.5 S features an increase in standard equipment, horsepower and style, combined with better fuel economy, yet remains very competitively priced with nearly $400 more value than the 2008 Maxima 3.5 SE,” said Al Castignetti, vice president and general manager, Nissan Division, Nissan North America, Inc. “As the flagship of Nissan’s exciting 2009 lineup, this new Maxima sets the standard in every category, including value.”
The 2009 Maxima is also available with several new option packages, including the Sport Package (3.5 SV), with sport-tuned suspension, 19-inch aluminum-alloy wheels, premium leather-appointed seats, paddle shifters and more; and the Premium Package (3.5 SV), with dual panel moonroof, 7-inch color monitor with RearView Monitor, Eucalyptus wood-tone trim and more.
About the 2009 Nissan Maxima
Designed as a commanding four-door sports car, Maxima is unique in both appearance and driving feel. High targets were established for the development of the new Maxima, including the goal of creating “the best performing front engine, front-wheel drive car in the world,” along with the goals of class-leading acceleration, braking, handling, craftsmanship and cockpit design.
The breakthrough exterior design of the new Maxima imparts a feeling of “liquid motion,” which combines an aggressive stance and powerful fender design – not unlike many exotic sports cars on the market today. Maxima’s new stance comes, in part, from a slight reduction in wheelbase and overall length, along with a wider front and rear track.
The new Maxima’s interior design team developed an interior concept of “Super Cockpit” – imparting the feeling of sports car with controls ergonomically close, yet with ample roominess and comfort for both driver and passengers. The interior includes a special driver’s sport seat, available leather-appointed seating, offset shifter lever that is closer to the driver, “Daylight Illumination” gauges and a wide range of available technology, including a Bose® audio system, RearView Monitor and Nissan Hard Drive Navigation system with XM NavTraffic® real-time traffic information (active XM® subscription required, sold separately), Voice Recognition and 9.3GB Music Box Hard Drive.
The 2009 Maxima comes equipped with a standard 3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve VQ-series V6 engine, rated at 290 horsepower and 261 lb-ft of torque. The new Maxima’s standard intelligent Xtronic CVT™ is tuned specifically for the car’s sporty driving character. It includes a manual mode, new “Ds mode” (drive sport) and available paddle shifters.
In North America, Nissan's operations include automotive styling, engineering, consumer and corporate financing, sales and marketing, distribution and manufacturing. Nissan is dedicated to improving the environment under the Nissan Green Program 2010, whose key priorities are reducing CO2 emissions, cutting other emissions and increasing recycling. More information on Nissan in North America and the complete line of Nissan and Infiniti vehicles can be found online at www.NissanUSA.com and www.infiniti.com.
# # #
* MSRP excludes applicable tax, title and license fees. Dealer sets actual price. Prices and specs are subject to change without notice.
http://www.nissannews.com/newsrelease.do?id=508&mid=1
New Style, more performance, and flagship quality.
Nissan North America, Inc. announced pricing on the all-new, flagship 2009 Nissan Maxima, which on sale now at Nissan dealers nationwide. The seventh generation Maxima returns to its heritage as “The 4-Door Sports Car,” combining thrilling performance with premium sedan comfort, quality and amenities. It features all-new sports styling, a driver-oriented interior and an enhanced 290-horsepower 3.5-liter DOHC V6 engine – offering 35 more horsepower than the previous generation Maxima and better fuel economy (EPA estimated 19 mpg City/26 mpg Highway versus 19/25 mpg for the 2008 Maxima).
The 2009 Maxima is offered in two well-equipped models, Maxima 3.5 S and Maxima 3.5 SV, each equipped with standard 3.5-liter V6 and intelligent Xtronic CVT™ (Continuously Variable Transmission). Prices start at a Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP)* of $29,290 for the Maxima 3.5 S and $31,990 for the Maxima 3.5 SV.
“The 2009 Maxima 3.5 S features an increase in standard equipment, horsepower and style, combined with better fuel economy, yet remains very competitively priced with nearly $400 more value than the 2008 Maxima 3.5 SE,” said Al Castignetti, vice president and general manager, Nissan Division, Nissan North America, Inc. “As the flagship of Nissan’s exciting 2009 lineup, this new Maxima sets the standard in every category, including value.”
The 2009 Maxima is also available with several new option packages, including the Sport Package (3.5 SV), with sport-tuned suspension, 19-inch aluminum-alloy wheels, premium leather-appointed seats, paddle shifters and more; and the Premium Package (3.5 SV), with dual panel moonroof, 7-inch color monitor with RearView Monitor, Eucalyptus wood-tone trim and more.
About the 2009 Nissan Maxima
Designed as a commanding four-door sports car, Maxima is unique in both appearance and driving feel. High targets were established for the development of the new Maxima, including the goal of creating “the best performing front engine, front-wheel drive car in the world,” along with the goals of class-leading acceleration, braking, handling, craftsmanship and cockpit design.
The breakthrough exterior design of the new Maxima imparts a feeling of “liquid motion,” which combines an aggressive stance and powerful fender design – not unlike many exotic sports cars on the market today. Maxima’s new stance comes, in part, from a slight reduction in wheelbase and overall length, along with a wider front and rear track.
The new Maxima’s interior design team developed an interior concept of “Super Cockpit” – imparting the feeling of sports car with controls ergonomically close, yet with ample roominess and comfort for both driver and passengers. The interior includes a special driver’s sport seat, available leather-appointed seating, offset shifter lever that is closer to the driver, “Daylight Illumination” gauges and a wide range of available technology, including a Bose® audio system, RearView Monitor and Nissan Hard Drive Navigation system with XM NavTraffic® real-time traffic information (active XM® subscription required, sold separately), Voice Recognition and 9.3GB Music Box Hard Drive.
The 2009 Maxima comes equipped with a standard 3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve VQ-series V6 engine, rated at 290 horsepower and 261 lb-ft of torque. The new Maxima’s standard intelligent Xtronic CVT™ is tuned specifically for the car’s sporty driving character. It includes a manual mode, new “Ds mode” (drive sport) and available paddle shifters.
In North America, Nissan's operations include automotive styling, engineering, consumer and corporate financing, sales and marketing, distribution and manufacturing. Nissan is dedicated to improving the environment under the Nissan Green Program 2010, whose key priorities are reducing CO2 emissions, cutting other emissions and increasing recycling. More information on Nissan in North America and the complete line of Nissan and Infiniti vehicles can be found online at www.NissanUSA.com and www.infiniti.com.
# # #
* MSRP excludes applicable tax, title and license fees. Dealer sets actual price. Prices and specs are subject to change without notice.
http://www.nissannews.com/newsrelease.do?id=508&mid=1
#32
I am here to confirm that the 4DSC is back again. I have not been too impressed with the Max since I sold my 5.5SE 6spd. With it's wide body stance and overall shape, this vehicle was amazing to see in person. My stealership had (1) S(already sold) and (1) SV model. The S model was a little over $30K while the SV w/Sport Pkg was well over $35K. I'm a little disappointed that for $30K, Nissan couldn't throw in some leather seats but it did have a sunroof. On the $35K SV w/Sports Pkg. there was no Nav. system either. Dealer said top of the line model will be at least $39K with premium pkg. and Nav. system. This will be my next car once rebates are offered and the qwerks are worked out. Dealer also said rebates probably won't be available on this vehicle for about a year but we'll see!
Last edited by MajesticMax02; 06-25-2008 at 05:07 PM.
#34
Ilyak - Yes, you certainly will see the sticker when you test drive it. Since the official 'first day of sale' is tomorrow (Thursday), I expect nissanusa.com to also have official prices posted within a day or so.
Additionally, the '09s will start showing up in the nissanusa.com inventory for each dealer very soon; possibly tomorrow. When the inventory is accessed via nissanusa, every little detail about the car is right there.
A friend (actually the service manager) who works at my dealer called me this afternoon to let me know they had received an '09 (he knows I worship Maximas). When I replied 'you mean VIN # 801278, the radiant silver SV with Premium Package that arrived at 9AM today and was moved from the detail shop to the showroom at 1:30 PM?', he was almost speechless.
Yes, I am truly a Maxima nut.
Additionally, the '09s will start showing up in the nissanusa.com inventory for each dealer very soon; possibly tomorrow. When the inventory is accessed via nissanusa, every little detail about the car is right there.
A friend (actually the service manager) who works at my dealer called me this afternoon to let me know they had received an '09 (he knows I worship Maximas). When I replied 'you mean VIN # 801278, the radiant silver SV with Premium Package that arrived at 9AM today and was moved from the detail shop to the showroom at 1:30 PM?', he was almost speechless.
Yes, I am truly a Maxima nut.
#36
IlyaK - Yes, I am very devious. I sail by the showroom in my shiny 6th gen, smile and wave to the sales folk lined up at the showroom windows, then head down the service ramp, at which point their eyes redirect themselves toward the front gate, awaiting the next victim.
Once out of their sight, and just before entering the service door, I make a sharp turn and sail through the 'no admittance' gate just like a flunkey moving a vehicle to or from service would do, park in as inconspicuous a place as I can find, then use a windowless part of the service building as a screen and circle behind the first row of cars in the back storage lot.
Once there, as long as I never let my head show above the cars, I can make my way all around the storage lot (always between one and two hundred cars back there, mostly new arrivals). When finished there, I sneak out the other entrance, which feeds through the detail shop. They are always surprised to see me coming OUT of the lot, but since their job only includes not letting folks IN the storage lot, they never know quite what to do, so do nothing. And that detail shop is where I spent part of my day, discussing the '09 Maxima they were detailing.
I am normally not a sneaky person. But when it comes to Maximas, I have no limits, no scruples, and no fear.
Once out of their sight, and just before entering the service door, I make a sharp turn and sail through the 'no admittance' gate just like a flunkey moving a vehicle to or from service would do, park in as inconspicuous a place as I can find, then use a windowless part of the service building as a screen and circle behind the first row of cars in the back storage lot.
Once there, as long as I never let my head show above the cars, I can make my way all around the storage lot (always between one and two hundred cars back there, mostly new arrivals). When finished there, I sneak out the other entrance, which feeds through the detail shop. They are always surprised to see me coming OUT of the lot, but since their job only includes not letting folks IN the storage lot, they never know quite what to do, so do nothing. And that detail shop is where I spent part of my day, discussing the '09 Maxima they were detailing.
I am normally not a sneaky person. But when it comes to Maximas, I have no limits, no scruples, and no fear.
#38
I am here to confirm that the 4DSC is back again. I have not been too impressed with the Max since I sold my 5.5SE 6spd. With it's wide body stance and overall shape, this vehicle was amazing to see in person. My stealership had (1) S(already sold) and (1) SV model. The S model was a little over $30K while the SV w/Sport Pkg was well over $35K. I'm a little disappointed that for $30K, Nissan couldn't throw in some leather seats but it did have a sunroof. On the $35K SV w/Sports Pkg. there was no Nav. system either. Dealer said top of the line model will be at least $39K with premium pkg. and Nav. system. This will be my next car once rebates are offered and the qwerks are worked out. Dealer also said rebates probably won't be available on this vehicle for about a year but we'll see!