CT Maxima

I am old school in regards to oil changes. First change is at 1,000 miles; 3,000 miles thereafter. Always a new oil filter. This protocol has served me well for I have never had an engine problem. I run my engines well over 140k miles.

For my new Max, I plan the first change at 1,000 miles. Perhaps the days of engine shavings are gone; but an early change sets a good baseline.

Here is the question: Should I continue with dino oil until the engine is broken in, i.e. when gas mileage is at its long term trend line. Or should I go directly to synthetics? The concept is that synthetics are better lubricants which prevents wear on the engine. It is the early wear that is the basis for "break in" period. So goes the theory. Thus by using synthetics, I delay the day when gas mileage peaks.

I also own a Nissan Frontier. Yes, I know, beauty and the beast. The Frontier's oil filter is p/n 15208-9E000. It has the same threading and gasket diameter as the correct filter for the 09 Max. My dealer said they are interchangeable. The filter for the 09 Max is 2 cm shorter than the one for the Frontier: obviously less filter area. The factor in choosing one filter over the other is fitment. Technicians may not be able to fit the larger filter in the 09 Max. Does anyone have any experience in this area?

Gollum67

iTrader: (1)

Don't mix apples and oranges in regards to the filter. Stick with the appropriate part # for each vehicle. I have an 03 Xterra and an 08 Max and both uses Mobil synthetic. A bit pricer than regular but I think it's worth it.

Mick7

As you know, that is a dilemma for many of us. Also, there are two opposite theories of breaking in an engine. The rationale for each makes sense which leaves us wondering which is right. After reading and trying to apply common sense, I decided to change the oil at 600 miles the first time and use dino oil for the next three changes which will put it at about 10k and then switch to synthetic..probably one with high ester content as Nissan recommends.



Everyone has to make their own call on it. I also believe in a more "vigorous" break-in than Nissan recommends. Here are two links to start some controversy. Have fun with these.



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Talk about **** about oil!! Lots of stuff here to think about. Most are adamant that the first change happens early. Some test their freakin oil every change to determine metal content, wear, etc.

http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/t...ine-break.html

lightonthehill

About five years ago, we had input here from a Nissan engineer who said Nissan recommends dino oil until the engine parts have all had a chance to 'seat' themselves, making for a more efficient engine. He said synthetic oil was so good it greatly delayed proper seating of engine parts. That seating process usually takes between 10K and 20K. but virtually all the seating happens in the first 10K, so switching to Synthetic at 10K should be fine.

As far as I know, we have not had input here from an Nissan engineer as to whether anything has changed in the last five years, but I am assuming it has not. So I plan to use dino at least the first 10K.

CT Maxima

Thanks Light. This is the info confirms the break in concept. I will use dino until 10k miles. Thereafter, I will use a 6k mile cycle rather than 3k.

nitro230

Is it really worth the (huge) extra in cost to use synthetic, or is it fine to just use dino? Are there any consequences or problems by using dino for its entire life? I am planning on picking up my new max in a few months and I was just asking myself this question since I have never used synthetic before. Thanks.

CT Maxima

I think the market has answered this question for you. Price, wear, frequency of oil changes are the factors. If the price/performance of synthetics was so much better than dino oil, the market would have shifted already. I have never encountered a wear issue with oil.

However, we are car enthusiasts! We can do what we want to do notwithstanding the cost benefit balance.

gizzsdad

I have been reading the forums at BITOG for many years, and don't buy into the "synthetic won't let the engine break-in" thesis. If that were the case, then there wouldn't be so many new cars delivered with synthetic from the factory.

From my understanding, virtually all new engines are "run-in" before they are ever installed into your Maxima. As far as seating rings, etc., the most knowledgeable people I've read indicate that it's pretty much done by the time they back your car off the transport. The main reason for following the break-in period has more to do with brakes and transmissions than engines.

Your car will do just fine on quality dino for hundreds of thousands of miles if you follow reasonable OCI's (5K or less, many go farther - and have the oil analyses to prove it). The odds of any us suffering an oil related failure are infinitesimal.

The most proven rationale for synthetics is longer drain intervals. Many on BITOG go 15K and longer. I can't.

All that being said, I get the factory oil out at 1-1.5K. Then I run an OCI of dino, then an OCI of syn-blend, then I get full syn in around 5-6K. Then I limit my OCI's to around 5K, which is probably a HUGE waste of money. I've actually had people tell me they want my used oil to put in their cars.

Why do I waste the money? Simple, it makes ME feel better. I like the improved flow at start-up, especially in cold temps (-15F here this AM). I like the extra element of protection synthetic offers in case of over heating (happened to me once in 36 years of driving). I also like the added protection (even though I probably don't need it) that the robust additive packages of synthetic offer. Can I justify the extra cost based on these benefits alone? Absolutely not - but it does make me feel better and gives me an ever so tiny element of confidence. What makes this routine even more nuts, is that I have never put more than 85K on any of my cars before selling/trading them.

I have used 0W-30's from GC and Amsoil, as well as 5W-30's from Mobil 1, Pennzoil, QS and Valvoline. Now I usually just get whatever synthetic I can find on sale. I currently have lots of GC, Pennzoil Platinum and Quaker State in my garage.

lightonthehill

nitro230 - No, it is not worth the extra cost in mechanical terms, but yes, it can be worth the extra cost in emotional terms. I never used synthetic from 1949 until around 1995, and never had major engine problems. I drove an '85 Maxima 206,000 miles commuting in Atlanta traffic (the WORST) using only Castrol GTX dino oil the entire time I had it, and the engine was still purring like a kitten when I finally let it go.

Some new cars come with synthetic oil. There are several reasons. Synthetic definitely keeps the moving parts from each other better than dino, and the manufacturer knows that breakins of modern engines take less time (better fitting of parts), care less about the breakin period being extended, and know most buyers will be impressed that the car comes with synthetic oil.

But we ALL know the REAL reason some new cars come with synthetic: The fruit cakes who take these new cars on test drives seem to have the brains of a pea. They think nothing of 'seeing what a car will do' when there may be only 5 miles total on the odo. To protect from such brain-dead nuts, synthetic is a far better protector from rampant abuse than dino. If I were an auto manufacturer, I would put synthetic in my cars as they came off the assembly line, even though dino would be better for the first 10K if the car were driven correctly.

Synthetic is a 'nut-proof' oil. Dino is not.

njmaxseltd

iTrader: (19)

Breaking in an engine is such a misconseption. Ask any true engine builder about breaking in an engine and he'll tell you that the only thing that needs to break in is the camshaft. AND that happens in the first 20 minutes of operation.

dkmura

After building and running Nissan race and street engines, the other mechanical component that is a critical part of the break-in process is piston rings. Particularly with the VQ, "seating" piston rings properly is critical. While I don't have a new Maxima (yet), I found that there was still some blow-by of synthetic oil on my VQ35DE (preorder '03 Z) when I swapped over at 7.5K.

The rings had clearly not seated! I swapped back to conventional oil until the Z had run almost 12K miles. After that, I've run synthetics with no problems, so I think those of you waiting until 10K are on the right track. BTW- used oil analysis has been used to track how certain brands and grades of oil have done with the VQ35DE. Surprisingly enough, some conventional oils have performed very well, while certain (high-priced) synthetics have not done as well in extended usage.

STARR

iTrader: (1)

I could not agree more with this, but also not to insult anyone some of those nuts work at the dealerships, I try never to think about it but sometimes especially now when the weather is in the teens, seeing brand new cars with the white tape covering them or a window sticker in the window, and seeing them haul *** onto the highway is just stupid.

From my own personal experience, synthetic is great just with the added benefits of people who tend to unknowingly beat on their car, but I also believe that many of the new engines could highly benefit from synthetic, I've seen everything from low mileage Lexus's, to Fords that had engines replaced and it was probably due to hard driving and using regular dino oil.

CT Maxima

Inquisitive minds want to know!

Which brands have been naughty? And which brands have been nice?

dkmura

Best if you read and decide for yourself. Pay attention to the charts and UOA comments: http://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-d...-and-info.html

CT Maxima

Thanks for the link.

The central poster, Resolute, is one detail-oriented dude. His approach is excellent. It would be good if every 20th post, he summarizes his and his fellow enthusiast's findings.

What I have been able to glean: Mobil 1 is not so good. Castrol Syntech is better.

lightonthehill

I think most engine builders (including my son-in-law who both builds engines and races cars) know that statement to be an incorrect generalization. For evidence, look no further than the post following that one - by dkmura. I trust dkmura. He knows Nissans.

Shoey1

so apparently everyone who has ever built/engineered an engine is totally wrong, and this njmax guy knows something they don't. enlighten us all as to why only the camshaft needs to be broken in and not other components? you cant make a statement like that without backing it up with fact.

dkmura

Resolute started that thread with an eye towards providing some fact-based comparisons of oil in the VQ35DE. Read those charts a bit more closely; you'll find Mobil 1 0-40W has several excellent results. As I recall, Castrol Syntech has two versions: the U.S. version has had fair wear results, while the European formula (marketed under the same name) has been quite good in the VQ. One conventional oil that's had good results is Castrol GTX 5W-30.

lightonthehill

Castrol GTX 5W30! The same oil I ran in my Datsuns in the 1970s, and in my Maximas in the 1980s. Consumer Reports did a major article on oils way back in the 1980s or early '90s, and after much lab testing and field testing, pronounced Castrol GTX as the best of the dozen or so oils they tested (all dino). I never forgot that.

Of course that CU test was much older than the one being discussed here, and may no longer be valid. But, of all dino oils, I still prefer Castrol GTX.

Mick7

After digging through a lot of posts on the link dkmura posted, it seems that Castrol GTX 5-30 is one of a few non-synthetics given a thumbs up for the VQ engine.

I used it at the first oil change and will use it the next three until around 10k is on the odometer. By then the efficacy of the Nissan recommended oil should be established...or not. The German Castrol synthetic 0w-30 is the current number one contender if it is still available since it has some ester content. I won't have 10k on my car until 2010.

If you read all the posts, the original poster thinks the 12.00 Nissan oil is a rip-off and questions whether it will even work. The rev-up engines with a 7500 redline seem to be the ones that are breaking.

What I got from the oil analysis thread was that RP shears and is not a good choice for the VQ35, some Amsoil weights are also lacking in the shear dept. as is Mobil1 in its 5-30 form though the 0w-40 Mobil was close to the German Castrol as was one 0-30 Amsoil..the expensive one?. Pennzoil PP looked good also or did it..I am confused. Any others I missed or misinterpreted? Anyone use Shaeffer's oil. Resolute is very high on it though he uses Mobile1.

dkmura

Nope, I think you've generalized the results quite well, Mick7. Penzoil Platinum (PP) had some good results as well. But keep in mind that these results continue to evolve as the UOAs pour in (literally). Oil producers will also change their formulations and packages periodically and that will affect the results as well. Finally, the 350Z is obviously a longitudinal package and the VQ35DE in the Maxima has different heads and ancillary parts, so the actual results may be slightly different for each model. It might be a good idea to have some Maxima UOAs posted to this, or another thread.

dkmura

I've never used or sought out Shaeffer's. Unless there's more outstanding results than already posted, I'll likely stick with the mass-produced oils that are easy to buy off-the-shelf. Mobil 1 0-40 is a good example and works well in the climate that I live in (Colorado).

Mick7

That was some good stuff in that thread. Thanks for posting it!

It darn near killed an evening for me... which is good as our high temp has been -1 so far today.

KRRZ350

iTrader: (29)

This is a little off topic, but since alot of you guys appear to be very **** with your oil changes, here's a little trick I was taught and do all the time now-

Grab an extra quart (or use the 3/4 qt that would normally be leftover) and after the oil drains out but before you put the drain plug & filter back, pour that extra oil through the engine! So simple right! Me personally I never thought about it until someone keyed me onto it. It flushes out the majority of old oil that's left in the pan and gives you a much better oil change

dkmura

I don't really know what to make of that suggestion, other than to suggest it's a waste of good, clean oil. That oil simply drops (in as straight a line as possble with gravity) through the head and block. Then it drains into the pan and only touches a portion of the crankshaft. It certainly won't circulate through the engine, or drive out much of the old oil. If you really want to flush the engine, there are motor flushes made for that purpose. But with the cost of oil today, I'm not eager to waste any!

CT Maxima

KKR is correct that we are **** about oil changes. But I agree with you, a straight drain does little to displace oil within the channels.

In my younger days, and when oil was cheaper, my protocol was to drain pan and filter, seal the plug and add 1-2 quarts of new but cheap oil, run the engine and then drain again. The new filter would be installed after the second drain. I don't do this anymore.

KRRZ350

iTrader: (29)

I don't really know what to make of you commenting about something you've never even tried, because it works really good. 1/2 qt + sits in the bottom of the lower pan on a VQ, it gets the majority of that out. Again, don't comment negatively on something you haven't tried, it doesn't circulate through the block (I never said it does), and it doesn't by any means get all of the old oil out, but it does work well at getting a large portion of it out. Why don't you give it a shot and watch what comes out of the drain.

Nissan recommends against their use.

dkmura

People can make their own decision on how well your "trick" works. For the record, I've tried it--but only by mistake! Started adding oil while in a rush to finish an oil/filter change and went underneath only to see a fresh quart drop straight into the drain pan. Sure, there was a little contamination in it, but that oil would have served me much better lubricating my VQ.

CT Maxima

Whoa! Don't chase off our lubrication expert. He seems to know his stuff and can opine if he wishes. In fact, anyone on this board can offer a differing opinion.

To remove the residual oil that resides in the bottom of the pan, there is an easier way than displacement with fresh oil. Just jack the car up in the direction of the drain hole. It works like a charm. I only do it if I screw up and not warm the oil up before draining.

fixerupper10

ugh well unlike all us smart guys on all about oil changes the previous owners of my 4th gen didnt know about the dino oil and breaking it in and so now at 150k miles i have to use all synthetic oil and pop a can of this blue engine restorer stuff into the new oil so i can stop this smoking smell i get after turning off my engine. the smell isnt that bad but when you open your door and smell that faint hint of it you know you want to kick the previous owner in the butt for not carring about what racing an engine that old and used can do. Any way something me and my mechanic of an uncle has told me and done is once an engine hits 100k he does all the stuff for it and starts spending a few extra bills for this stuff and after that he dosent have to worry about scrapings or anything till like 350k miles. lol

KRRZ350

iTrader: (29)

I've made that mistake in the past as well, I think everybody ends up doing it once in their lifetime, the one time I did it involved some atf and I was on the 3rd quart before I caught it.

That UOA thread on My350 is good ****, based on the info in there when I did rings on a '06 rev-up I used that hard to find european blend Mobil-1 0w40, I did the first 10 miles & started out gentle but made sure to decelerate alot as well, increasing revs more and more after time but never went over 4k, told the customer to not exceed 4k & to come back for a free 1st oil change after 500 miles, which I used the m1 0w40 again, Yes I know, those were some expensive oil changes & probably overkill on the mileage for sure, but last I talked to him he had over 40K since the "rebuild" and his consumption is no more than 1/4qt or less between changes. I myself was skeptical about breaking an engine in on synthetic, but it turned out great for me, especially considering that particular engine was seasoned (only 15k though, so there was still plenty of crosshatch that I was confident about re-ringing it without a hone) AND it is an engine that is known for massive oil-consumption problems. Granted the bearings, cams, etc etc were already broken in though, but I still don't believe the hype & agree with Mobil & Mercedes to name a few.

dkmura, sorry about being snappy with my response last night, & for not turning it into a *****fest like most members would have, I was in a pissed off mood last night.

f550maranello2

iTrader: (2)

Hmm thats weird cuz just spent a week in a mitsubishi assembly plant (working on their cnc's) i walked around the entire factory saw the entire process of assembling/painting and i never saw any engine engine being "run in".. they were assembled and started for a minute and then installed at the other end of the factory....

KRRZ350

iTrader: (29)

^^ I think he means the little 10 miles they put on the car to check for major problems after it's assembled, but yeah they don't exactly due much there as far as I know, to say a new car shouldn't require breaking in the engine is ludicrous. 99seltd's comment was a tad off, BUT breaking in a new cam is very important, the thing is that happens very very quickly, breaking the cam in is the reason a new engine should be revved to roughly 2k+ rpm's right away upon the first start and held there for a minute or two, the higher rpm's actually puts less load on the whole valvetrain & in particular the cam lobes. I would assume Nissan does this, but I have no clue and would love to know, f550- When they started those mitsu engines, did it seem like they were revving them high?

f550maranello2

iTrader: (2)

Well they finish putting the sound insulation under the hood they start it a bunch of metallic smoke comes out and the the car idles for like 15 minutes till they inspect all the gaps.. then they are immediately moved outside into the parking lot for storage...

lightonthehill

Sounds about like what I usually saw at the GM, Ford and Nissan plants I have toured. I would say the factory break-in we usually see is about 1199 miles short of Nissan's recommended 1,200 mile breakin period.

Mick7

Surprise to me. European Castrol 0w-30 in WalMart at Gulf Shores, Al. We are on a winter vacation here. I thought Autozone was the only big retailer that carried it?

Shoey1

my auto tech teacher in trade school used to build race engines for a living and said that if you drained out a half quart to a full quart about 500 miles from your next oil change and replaced it with a bit of tranny fluid, the detergent agents in the trans fluid act like an engine flush but more effective and less harmful. i asked some other techs i know and they have all told me the same thing.

mudbelly

Well, I did my switch over to synthetic on my 6.5 gen a couple of days ago with 6K on the ODO. This was the second change for the car (1st at dealer @ 2.5K). Using Penzoil Platinum, I did this "extra oil" trick after letting the old oil drain, and 1- the oil took a few seconds before it came out, and 2- there was still a lot of crap in the oil coming out until the last bit. I think this is a good use for the extra 1/2 quart left in the 5Q jug since you'll want to put the old oil in there to transport (after you do a few changes). Its also cheaper to DIY synthetic than to dino quick lube. With beer, neighbors, and BS, its more fun as well... I ended up using ramps since I didn't want to split the one jack notch between the floor jack, and the jack stand (there was like almost a foot of space between the two for a 3 inch area). Definitely get the ramps and DIY...