boone

iTrader: (1)

Now this is a piece of interesting info I ran across in Road & Track today - Ferrari is only offering a 7-speed dual clutch transmission in the new 458 Italia. This is because only 1% of the F430s (predecessor to the 458 Italia) were sold with a manual transmission. If a true sports car manufacturer like Ferrari is abandoning manual transmissions, there is very little hope for them to continue to be sold in less sport-oriented cars or lesser sports cars.

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

No surprise I'm a huge F1 fan and NHRA and variations of auto transmissions have been in use now for years.

For pure speed an auto will be faster. The 7 speed Z beats my manual Z off the showroom floor. I do enjoy the manual on the weekends which is why I got the car, but the days of pure manual transmissions are going by the wayside.

lightonthehill

but . . . but . . . but a REAL MAN will drive nothing but a MANUAL. What on earth are those foolish auto makers thinking?

Oh! The're thinking of the BOTTOM LINE! The're trying to make a PROFIT! Which means dumping any profit-destroying version that is only selling one or two percent. How greedy of them! Yes, practical, business-like and wise, but still greedy.

Boone and MaxLoverAz, bringing the brutal, unvarnished truth to a board that nostalgically tries to keep a manual 'candle of hope' burning. Reality may hurt, but that is just the way it is. And, despite the manual Maxima hanging on until 2006, the words of Ghosn in 2002 warned us 'the end was near' for the manual. The days of producing 'show pieces' for image purposes are gradually going by the wayside; the brutal competition no longer permits such budget-bursting chest-thumping.

Norm Peterson

I'll respectfully disagree . . . even though it's a subjective matter that tends to split along traditional vs progressive lines of thought, it's not about nostalgia.

Would you choose the skating or dance partner that you know you can naturally lead and who will remain in step . . . or the one who you know has all the right technical moves but never quite the right timing?

Brutal is also a good description of what it's like being on the receiving end of having choice removed. Shopping elsewhere might only be a short-term solution, if Carlos Ghosn is to be taken at his word.


Yes, I've read those Ferrari reviews - at least three of them. It's over-reaching more than a little for Ferrari or any other mfr to suggest that a few tenths of a second matters anywhere except in timed competition or to assume that more than relatively few cars actually end up on the track being driven anywhere near their capabilities. It's an image thing, pure and simple. Unfortunately, it seems, image counts for more to way too many people than does substance.

I have heard that the upshifting in the various automated manuals/DSG's isn't completely smooth under all driving conditions. That does suggest that a paddle-shifted CVT with proper programming could be the better solution in most cases.

BTW, gear preselection in a MT is nothing new (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preselector_gearbox).


Norm

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

To suggest that milliseconds doesn't matter with competition super cars i.e. Ferrari, Porsche, Auto etc is rather foolish, every single second counts in racing. This is what they do, why they cram Carbon Fiber everywhere so they can to eek out that extra millisecond of time. These manufacturers are seeking the ultimate in performance at any cost, and a manual won't cut it anymore.

When your trying to win a race you need to be able to out accelerate your opponent and be faster overall on the track, shifting a manual is counter productive when you look at it from a pure racing perspective. Why would you want to slow the engine down when accelerating?

That's what you do every time you shift, can you imagine trying this with the space shuttle? Ok time to shut off the throttle and shift gears, then full throttle up...

The delay with shifting slows you down, hence why you now see 7 & 8 gear automatics. The reason why I get smoked against a 7 speed Z, I'm busy shifting, getting out of the throttle, reengaging the drive line, etc and my buddy just has his foot-down the whole time allowing the electronic transmission to make gear changes in seconds or faster while I'm fiddling around.

The new F430 Scuderia shifts in 60 milliseconds. Your able to take an almost 3000 lbs (2975) car with only 510 HP and have a 0-60 time of 3.6 seconds.

I personally think DSG will be the common mans gearbox in the future, not too expensive but very high performance. It will replace the powerglide from the sixties that are so popular today at the drag strip.

Norm Peterson

Yes.

You have completely reiterated my opinion, where I did state that it matters IN TIMED COMPETITION. I have never tried to suggest otherwise. But there's more to driving than just the hard performance numbers - that you may or may not be able to duplicate yourself.

What I am contending is that relatively few cars, including the high-$ Ferraris, are actually used at a level where advantages that small will affect the overall outcome. Or even a step down at the HPDE/PDX/open-track day level where a true MT version of the same car would be fully capable of running the same sort of lap times. Not too many more cars in general even see autocross action, where you typically make one upshift and no downshifts at all.

I am also saying that it doesn't matter at all anywhere else. The ability to get a shift accomplished in 60 ms, or 40, or wherever the low limit is at this point has no meaning whatsoever in any driving use that involves use of the public streets.

For the vast majority of actual owners, it's still just another want-it/gotta-have-it bragging point. Just like 505 HP vs 485, 201 mph capability vs 190-something, or a 12.9 second quarter mile ET vs 13.x, etc., are.

Wouldn't get me to work enough quicker to matter, for instance (and please understand that I buy cars because I want to drive them, not to let them live in the garage and brag about having them).


Norm

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

but see success in competition is what sells cars for the higher end car buyer....

A racing pedigree goes a long way to making those buyers loyal customers.

Most people who purchase these cars contrary to popular belief actually drive them at least out in the better weather states.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Interesting to see this thread in the 7th gen, inviting what could be negative opinions about the only transmission you guys have. (And strange to see it wander into a discussion about color. Seriously... color? Too funny.)

I've been driving my 5th gen 6MT for over 7 years. I've driven the 7th gen on 3 separate occasions. And I've driven the G37 a couple times, both their 6MT coupe and their 6sp-auto sedan. Here are my opinions:

• The G37S manual transmission (and mine) are a joy to drive. It's old-school driving, and I say that in a good way. Even though there's no denying that rush hour traffic is a royal PITA.

• The 7th gen Maxima CVT is weird and unpleasant in auto mode, but suddenly all kinds of fun in manual mode. That said, I still couldn't get past the obvious, that a CVT was mimicking transmission gears in order to satisfy a driving experience requirement.

• And the G37 6-spd in manual mode slipped up and down the gears in a much more satisfying way than the 7th gen Maxima. It was so pleasant, that I really didn't miss the clutch.

Long story story -- I'd take a MT over an automatic any day. And although the 7th gen CVT is pretty darn good, the G37 6-sp auto is far better.

Compusmurf

So true, so true. However "images" change as to what's "in".

The "world's image of in" is slowly drifting towards the "green" movement. Green PC's, green cell phones, green energy, green cars.... Dozen years back and the Prius was a novelty item and not seen too often. It was small, electric powered rollerskate. Now, just about every mainstream consumer automaker has at least 1 if not more hybrids, and based on the number I see on the roads, must be selling rather well.

Now segway this into what Light and others are saying as well, if a product only sells a handful a year, where is the rational to keep producing it?

So between the consumer image and buying habits and the desire of the companies to be profitable, and no matter how good, efficient, connected, etc you are with a manual tranny, the writing is on the wall. Naysayers or not, there are fewer and fewer MT cars produced every year. That's a pure fact.

Besides, in my 2035 Maxima SVHE (SV Hovercraft edition), who's gonna need a transmission????

gizzsdad

I have been a manual guy my whole life. When my dealership ordered my '10, I started advertising mine to sell it on my own. After 10 weeks, I'd had exactly two calls, and both were not interested when they realized it was a MT. Getting close to the end of Nov. my dealer was getting antsy to make a deal, so they put another $3K into my car, which was enough to get me to trade. I picked it up the day after Thanksgiving, and as of today (1-20) they still have it. And we are talking about a very sharp, pristine car with sharp A/M wheels and they have obviously gotten no takers.

My father-in-law also can't understand why he can't buy size 40-28 slacks. He has to buy longer slacks and have my wife hem them up.

Duh - no demand = no market.

Norm Peterson

I think you're on to something. I see it elsewhere, in the disappearance of various other consumer products. So has my wife, who has been directly affected on a daily basis in a couple of cases.

I also suspect that many people today are so predisposed to having things done with some sort of electronic/digitally computed assistance that they have come to expect it in everything.

For some automotive things - fuel and ignition control come to mind - it's a great solution. I've tinkered with aftermarket EFI and all of its programming, and I would not want to return to the analog solutions for those things (points/condensor/carburetor).

But for other things, it still seems like an overly complex and synthetic-feeling way of getting them done. Little microswitches under the keys are perfectly satisfying to use in communicating information or to play with something like a Wii; much less so when the thing that you're ultimately controlling is a mechanical contrivance involving things that slide and other things that rotate that have to be physically moved in some fashion.

It probably comes as little surprise for me to say that I generally suck at most video games.


Turning the long-running pricing model the other way around and making the MT an extra-cost option might be one way.


How much faster would they disappear completely if nobody ever talked about them at all? I'm pretty sure I can guess how silence would be interpreted by anybody who had reason to look for opinions on the matter.


What I haven't mentioned until now is that we're starting a little very-long-lead looking with respect to the next vehicle purchase. What I hope remains the case should be obvious. Failing that, I can only hope that whatever the "best of the rest" choice ends up being doesn't make me feel that I made a "best choice from a bad bunch" decision.

The CVT - in paddle-shifted form - is not off the list. Yet.
A pure CVT won't make it to the list.


Norm

IFuXwiTuZ

i agree with blackness monsta this car deserved the 3.7L engine and a 6speed AT or 6MT

the cvt belongs with the lancers, altimas, civics, etc....
i feel this car would be way faster with a 6MT

lightonthehill

Since this bucket of worms has been reopened for the umpteenth time, I again say:

To #1, I say no. Automatics and manuals are trannies of the second millenium. They were fine for their day, but have reached somewhat of a limit in efficiency. Any tranny that shifts has those inefficient shift points. This may be OK for a pure sports car, or as an option for a car that hopes to sell 250,000 copies. But not so much for a limited-production upscale flagship family sedan like the Maxima. Additionally, traffic is so thickly congested in many places these days that a manual would be a pain in the behind.

To #2 I say no. The CVT has the most potential for highest fuel efficiency AND fastest acelleration (no shift points). It is the tranny of today. Many folks don't like the idea of a CVT, but that is their problem. Nissan has to look at the greater picture, choose the most efficient and best performing tranny for the buyers it is aiming for. The low production numbers of the newly-upscale Maxima do not economically permit a tranny choice.

To #3, I say no. Engineers knew early on that a well-designed tranny that does not shift will have better acelleration than one that does. Nissan said they ran tests and confirmed this. We can sorta prove this to ourselves by testing an '06 Maxima with Nissan's best manual against an '06 Maxima with Nissan's old under-performing CVT. Then remember the newly-redesigned CVT of the 7th gen Maxima is much better than that old CVT. As time goes by, the superiority of the CVT over the manual will only grow.

The future is here, and us old codgers who grew up on manuals (as I did) either have to grit our teeth and move into the third millenium, or dig in our heels and be left in the second millenium.

I originally was not sold on the idea of a CVT, but I chose to not be left behind. I'm glad I made that decision, as I have grown to love this 7th gen CVT.

Flip2cho

Light, your a wise man

TigerGenetics

Don't know if there is any truth to this, but when I first began looking at Maximas, the dealer told me that Toyota is currently in talks with Nissan for rights to use the CVT in their cars. Anyone know if this holds any water?

lightonthehill

Thanks a bunch! But I am not really wise; I just know when to hold and when to fold. I knew I would not be able to stop the market rush to the CVT, so rather than bang my head against a stone wall, I simply decided to make the best of the situation and understand and embrace the CVT. I found this approach causes less stress and less frustration.

No, I'm not very wise. But I am pragmatic. I deal with what is there.

lightonthehill

I have heard nothing about this. But it could make sense in that Nissan is far ahead of Toyota in CVT development, and Toyota now realizes the CVT is going to be a more efficient and better performing tranny as we move into a world where MPG becomes very important because of impending government requirements.

Norm Peterson

Heels firmly dug in, Light. Still dance to the beat of a different drum, not ready to give up the choice to do so, and I'll do it all by myself, thanks. And with Toyota's recent difficulties, I'm not willing to surrender any further control to anybody's electronics.

Wifey isn't ready for a two-pedal car, either with or without the paddle-shift option (I asked, shortly before we went to the auto show in Philly a little over a week ago).


But I can absolutely understand if a mfr was to offer a customer choice in this matter, it would be a MT (of some sort) vs either CVT or conventional automatic. If it's tough to justify two trannies within a single model line, it would be all but impossible to justify three or more.


Norm

bk2k3max

Thanks for all the technobabble about CVTs and Manuals and I know that this is what this thread is about but I wanted to kind of piggyback on this forum instead of starting a new one; so I just want to know if anyone has found a remedy to the killer "CVT BOG"??

I read this posted by Aaron92SE:

Not sure if CVTs carry a TC but it must be some similar device to maintain such a high stall when our CVT hits it's peak and stays there. That comment from him got me wondering if there's simply no answer and that we have to accept/live with that killer bog or if for those of us who race 1/8 & 1/4 mile need to consider dropping the CVT and subplanting an old 6 spd manual from previous Maximas (5th Gen/early 6th Gens) to rid ourselves of this "bog" and see what this car is really capable of in those racing categories.

I see no reason (other than the CVT, especially the bog) as to why this car shouldn't be a reglar mid to low 13sec 1/4 mile car even with the added weight gain given the 290 (extra 35 hp) and similar weight to the 6th gen that was making low 14 passes in 6 spd trim.

DISCUSS!!

Norm Peterson

You might want to look through this article. Or google on "torque converter Nissan CVT" (without the quotes).

My understanding is that torque converter design for a CVT would stay away from high stall speeds and stall ratios, since the CVT transmits torque essentially via friction between the chain and the variable pulleys. Once you overpower static friction through a suddenly applied heavy torque spike, you'll get LOTS of sliding and heat generation and (I suspect) the possibility of local overheating of the metal bits.

I suppose that a higher-performance-oriented design could be developed, using higher hydraulic pressures to develop higher normal forces against the chain and therefore friction. Then you could perhaps use a slightly looser TC. Of course, there would be some penalty in the form of increased parasitic power and efficiency losses, so I'm not expecting much development in this direction from Nissan production. Nismo, maybe???.

Otherwise, the initial launch with a CVT is going to be mostly a function of having overall lower gearing rather than a sudden torque 'hit' via TC stall. That was GM's philosophy back in the early days of conventional automatics (Hydramatics) that used a two-element fluid coupling (no torque multiplication) - crutch it with a low 1st gear below the normal three. Worked fine in normal driving, but couldn't launch anywhere near as hard as the later Turbo-Hydramatics that only had 3 speeds.


Norm

bk2k3max

Thanks Norm, that was an interesting read and I appreciate it very much.

Maxim_ized

Ok, now the unwarranted disdain for the 2009/2010 MAXIMA CVT is getting old. First of all I highly doubt most of the detractors have really driven any of the 7th generation Maximas.

Ok now for the meat of my argument. Jatco's CVT that is used in the 7th Gen is not the same as CVT's in the past. It is one of the first CVT's that have been engineered to be sturdy enough for high horsepower/high torque engines. The flexible METAL belt is the difference.

Secondly this car has 3 distinctly separate drive modes...Standard, Sport, and Sport Shift (not the official names, but for ease of explanation). Standard mode is what people have come to know about CVT's...a straight pull to redline with no drop in rpm. Standard has the least responsive throttle response, but it is the best for fuel economy, and if you have a wife/gf that drives the car on occassion. Sport mode has a very snappy and instant throttle response...sport mode will also simulate the rpm drop between shifts. If you are on the interstate and need to pass at high speed, or you need to speed up to merge safely, just flick the gear shifter to the left and floor it. Very exhilarating. Sport Shift mode can be activated in three ways if you have paddle shifters, one way in the base model. The paddle shifter equipped cars can initiate Sport Shift while in Standard Mode by manipulating the paddles...it will automatically go back to Standard Mode once you leave the paddles alone for like 6 or so seconds. Sport shift can also be activated by sliding the gear shift lever to the left and tapping the lever up or down to upshift or downshift OR you can use the paddles. Paddles are better if you need to keep your hands on the wheel. The shifts via paddle or gearshift lever are very quick and lively and responsive. It will hold a gear until absolutely necessary to upshift.

The CVT in the 7th Generation Maxima is incredibly versatile and so far sturdy. Jatco has engineered a CVT that doesn't suffer from the setbacks of the earlier models, and it can definitely handle a higher output engine because of the innovative flexible METAL belt.

I admittedly was skeptical of the CVT...until I rented a base model 7th Gen and drove the famous Pacheco Pass mountain range in Northern California. Was so impressed by the engine, and the transmission, and the styling of the car that when I got back from my visit in California I promptly went to the Nissan dealership in my town and bought a 2010 SV with Sport Package in Ocean Gray. In less than one week after driving in the mountains of California I was driving with my 2010 Maxima Sport in the mountains of Tennessee sustaining speeds of up to 100 mph in curves with no extreme body roll or feeling like a loss of traction was eminent.

So in my opinion I say the heck with a 6-speed manual, the sheer versatility of the new and improved Jatco CVT was definitely a step in the right direction for the MAxima. Have to have a 6-speed with RWD?...get an Infiniti G37...the money is still going to Nissan.

BTW, I appreciate a manual as I have come from a Manual BMW 5 Series. Great car, IMO the blueprint for a Sports Sedan. With that being said I am open to the newer alternatives as the Dual Clutch Auto-Manual (True manual with an automated clutch) and also the newer CVT's.

Norm Peterson

There is no need to emphasize that this CVT employs a metal belt, as it should be apparent to anybody participating in this discussion. Its being metal does not make it immune to heavy use/harsh use/abuse, just perhaps more resistant to it. The metal belt still has its design limit, perhaps limited by things like available friction and hydraulics. And it can still fail, though probably not in the same catastrophic manner as a reinforced belt of some other substance might.


You're probably aiming comments at me, and all I can say is that we have somewhat different mindsets when it comes to driving. But perhaps you can clear up some of the remaining confusion.


I'm aware that CVT's can be made to synthesize discrete intermediate ratios via programming, and IMO that's a good thing. But do I correctly understand that after a few seconds of inactivity with the paddles the CVT/PCM will once again take over control? That doesn't sound like such a nice thing to have going on during a longish corner or sequence of turns.

I'm not sure what to believe here. Either the electronics take over or they don't, unless there's some driver actions that let that happen while other driver actions don't. I hope it's not as confusing to operate as it is to try to phrase my concerns. Like I said earlier, I'm not dismissing a paddle-shift out of hand (or something similar accomplished via the stick, which I'd probably default to using anyway). What I can't and won't do is speak for my wife, though.


Glad you like it. Really. Though I'm not sure how styling and chassis dynamics figure into this discussion.


Guess I'm too stubbornly independent to be a marque loyalist. If I ever had been (Pontiac, Plymouth, Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Nissan, Mazda, Nissan, Ford - in that order).


I wasn't going to break open the DSG topic, but since it has been I'll mention that I have to take a "wait and see" attitude. It's still pretty early in the development of these things for passenger car use and not all of the rough edges have been finished smooth yet. That has to be accomplished in order for them to make their case clear. It's not enough to only be just as good as a conventional manual, they'd have to be clearly superior in all respects and earn the title of being an improvement by overall experience instead of by implication from the higher level of technology required.


Norm

Maxim_ized

With all due respect Sir, I don't even know enough about you or your posting history to directly comment to you. I was making general statements to no one specifically.

Sometimes people become so "knowledgeable" and omniscient, that it prevents them from having an open mind about new concepts, or at the very least alternative concepts.

But anyway here it goes. The metal belt design of the CVT utilized in the 10 'Max is actually quite ingenious. It is both flexible and semi-rigid depending on which pulley it is coming off of or going onto. The special lubricant is the key to this transmission...it provides both friction from the belt to the pulley AND lubricity [Nissan is using a special oil that helps lock the steel belt to the pulleys but it also lubricates and cools the transaxle. The best way to describe the oil is that it contains “rubber molecules” that provides the grip between the belt and the pulleys. As pressure is applied to the oil, the “rubber molecules” compress, turning into a crystalline form that locks the belt and pulley together. Relax the pressure and the oil returns to its original state.]. It also has like three transmission coolers to prevent overheating...and as a failsafe if for some reason the temp of the oil still gets too high the engine will be limited to 4000 rpm until it cools off. The only documented case I have heard of that happening was after 15 minutes of repeated launches from 0 MPH.

I mentioned if you have the center mounter shifter in AUTO mode and you manipulate the paddles it will temporarily put the engine in Sport mode allowing you to shift via the paddle shifters...If you allow at least 5-6 seconds to elapse before manipulating the paddles again then it will go back to AUTO mode. BUT, and please pay attention this...if you have the center mounted shifter in the SPORT mode which is the left gate and you manipulate the paddle shifters it will stay in SPORT mode until you move the center mounted shifter back to AUTO mode. It is far less complicated in practice...but a person would only know that if they have actually driven one. So what's the reason for the temporary SPORT mode??? Well if you just need to drop a few "ratios", sort of akin to downshifting for a quick acceleration boost, you can do so and then it will go back to the standard auto mode. It is merely an option, not something mandatory.

All in all considering the fuel economy you get in a 3.5L engine outputting 290HP and the performance which is very good ,considering it's a sedan south of 40K and not a product of Bayerische Motoren Werke, the CVT in the 7th Generation Nissan Maxima is a winner so far. As far as long term, well time will tell, but it is a piece of mind knowing the warranty being 10YR/120,000 miles has me covered in case of any malady.

Maxim_ized

With all due respect Sir, I don't even know enough about you or your posting history to directly comment to you. I was making general statements to no one specifically.

Sometimes people become so "knowledgeable" and omniscient, that it prevents them from having an open mind about new concepts, or at the very least alternative concepts.

But anyway here it goes. The metal belt design of the CVT utilized in the 10 'Max is actually quite ingenious. It is both flexible and semi-rigid depending on which pulley it is coming off of or going onto. The special lubricant is the key to this transmission...it provides both friction from the belt to the pulley AND lubricity [Nissan is using a special oil that helps lock the steel belt to the pulleys but it also lubricates and cools the transaxle. The best way to describe the oil is that it contains “rubber molecules” that provides the grip between the belt and the pulleys. As pressure is applied to the oil, the “rubber molecules” compress, turning into a crystalline form that locks the belt and pulley together. Relax the pressure and the oil returns to its original state.]. It also has like three transmission coolers to prevent overheating...and as a failsafe if for some reason the temp of the oil still gets to high the engine will be limited to 4000 rpm until it cools off. The only documented case I have heard of that happening was after 15 minutes of repeated launches from 0 MPH.

I mentioned if you have the center mounter shifter in AUTO mode and you manipulate the paddles it will temporarily put the engine in Sport mode allowing you to shift via the paddle shifters...If you allow at least 5-6 seconds to elapse before manipulating the paddles again then it will go back to AUTO mode. BUT, and please pay attention this...if you have the center mounted shifter in the SPORT mode which is the left gate and you manipulate the paddle shifters it will stay in SPORT mode until you move the center mounted shifter back to AUTO mode. It is far less complicated in practice...but a person would only know that if they have actually driven one. So what's the reason for the temporary SPORT mode??? Well if you just need to drop a few "ratios", sort of akin to downshifting for a quick acceleration boost, you can do so and then it will go back to the standard auto mode. It is merely an option, not something mandatory.

All in all considering the fuel economy you get in a 3.5L engine outputting 290HP and the performance which is very good ,considering it's a sedan south of 40K and not a product of Bayerische Motoren Werke, the CVT in the 7th Generation Nissan Maxima is a winner so far. As far as long term, well time will tell, but it is a piece of mind knowing the warranty being 10YR/120,000 miles has me covered in case of any malady.

Norm Peterson

I suspect that I get viewed as being something of a 'holdout' on this topic.

I do engineering for a living, being mostly involved with things in the grey area between structural and mechanical, which is probably more relevant than any posting history. I'm quite aware that oil is a cooling medium, and the details of Nissan's fluid operation do represent a potentially useful little piece of knowledge. Thanks.

However, as an engineer I do tend to be skeptical of things until they are proven. In one of the issues here, it's the rather narrow use of the Jatco CVT in dragstrip duty or possibly under significantly greater torque loading that's in question, as I'd expect that Nissan had done sufficient testing to qualify the use of this CVT for any use that could be considered normal. For those specific circumstances, I'd still say the jury is out.


Again, thanks.

That you do have a way of forcing 'Sport' to remain the active mode is something that I'd require. That 'Auto' is the default setting might still be a minor irritation, though, just like having the Traction Control always default to 'on' is in my Mustang. In both of these instances (and others as well), I'd really like to see an available option by which the default settings could be swapped.


Norm

67whitegoat

iTrader: (4)

Hey Norm. Auto is only a default in drive. Drive sport mode using the paddles it doesn't default to drive mode.

Norm Peterson

As Maxim_ized noted (shift lever in 'Sport' rather than in 'Drive'), right?

That was one of the things I was needing to get straight; that there was some means of keeping the PCM from taking control after a few seconds if you only used the paddles. Going one step further, personal preference for me would be the ability to "permanently" set 'Sport' as the default mode, if not for a specific driver at least for that specific car.

What you perhaps need to know about me - it is normal for me to drive with more than an average amount of what you might call "traditional sports car enthusiasm", and I'll just about always use a little leading throttle through a lengthy turn, which may well take longer than 5 or 6 seconds. Finding myself driving a car that's suddenly become less responsive car because it had defaulted back to 'Auto' and moved to a taller overall ratio would definitely not be a good thing. IOW, if I want to be accelerating along an onramp or tthrough some other sequence of turns with the engine running up (and occasionally down, as dictated by corner radius) through 3000/3500-ish rpm with the overall gearing about what 3rd gear with a MT would be, that's where I want it to stay for as long as it takes. I don't want to suddenly find myself out of the powerband at 1500 rpm with 5th gear-ish torque multiplication. Yes, I really do drive that way (it puts a little fun into driving), and no, I don't see that changing (been doing it that way for too long).


Norm

Maxim_ized

If you want to drive in Sport mode %100 of the time you can...there are no switches or buttons to push. As a matter of fact you can drive the car without EVER being in Non-Sport mode if you'd like.

This transmission is very flexible and provides more than a few options. There is Auto (Non-Sport), Sport, and Sport Semi-Auto (which allows the driver to select 6 different ratios via paddle shifter OR gearshift lever).

lightonthehill

THE SAGA OF THE SAD DEMISE OF THE MANUAL TRANNY MAXIMA

Norm's reluctance to unconditionally embrace the CVT brings back my memories of back in the early 1960s when I first heard about those newfangled TV 'remotes', which enabled especially sedentary (lazy) folks to change channels without even rising from the sofa.

At that time, I swore to my wife that if I ever got so lazy as to use one of those stupid remotes, I would stop watching TV.

But time passes, and things change.

Now we have so many remotes in our den I hardly know what operates what. Our eight outdoor spotlights are all sensor-triggered. Our garage doors open/close at the push of a button from 300 feet away. We turn our fans on/off without stirring from our seat by simply touching a button. We have cordless pushbutton phones all around the house, and they can be operated anywhere on the property. All seventeen sensors of our security system can be individually programmed at the touch of a button. Outside sensors let us know if even a cat or dog enters our property 300 feet from our home. We can set up our DVR to record any program, or even any PART of a program on any of hundreds of TV channels at any time while we are away. Our security lights can pe programmed to go on or off at whatever time we choose.

And yet we are still somewhat deprived, as our neighbor has such things as a four car garage and eight color video cameras around the inside and outside of his (admittedly huge) home, recording everything that happens 24/7. I don't know where it all ends.

None of these things I listed even begins to address the almost incredible number of conveniences and self-maintaining features of our 7th generation Maxima. Back in the 1940s, or even as late as the 1970s, I would never have dreamed we would have heated steering wheels, individually air conditioned seats, a rear view camera displaying on our dash, integrated music boxes that could hold over a thousand songs, much less a tranny that could be operated as a manual, semi-sport auto, full sport auto or full normal auto. Yes, I really enjoyed my old manual trannys . . . at least when I lived in the Arizona desert, and traffic actually moved.

But those days have faded. Unless I move to a rural area where the traffic does more than just sit, I no longer have any use for a manual tranny. Increasingly worse gridlock in more and more areas has had a huge impact on the number of manual tranny drivers. For better or worse, there are now probably less than 25 million folks in the U.S. that even know how to drive a manual, less than 10 million who would drive a manual if given a choice, and less than 2 milllion who would buy a manual, because family cars (such as the Maxima) must be useable by all members of the family. Even that old eternal and valid justification of better gas mileage with a manual is no longer true.

And that saga covers the pimary reasons why manual Maxima sales dropped to well under 5% of total Maxima sales. When we combine all those reasons with the fact Maxima is now a low-volume vehicle, we understand why we will not be seeing a manual Maxima in the future. The manual tranny will soon be limited to an option with high-volume vehicles such as the Altima, and to specialty cars selling an ego trip and/or a 'rally-style' driving experience (BMW comes quickly to mind).

In a way, sad. But very understandable.

End of rant.

Compusmurf

" We can set up our DVR to record any program, or even any PART of a program on any of hundreds of TV channels at any time while we are away"

OMG Light, you are sooo dark ages.... I can do that from my phone and I have around 1000 channels of reruns to do it with....

Not to deviate too far, but Light, check out the x10 systems for your home. Do all that stuff right from your computer and let me introduce you to the programmable, universal remote while I'm at it. Tech has advanced enough that you don't need those 8 remotes. Just 1 programmable from your pc.....

lightonthehill

No wonder my neighbors all consider me to be a fossil from the Pleistocene geological era. My brother-in-law and my son have been particularly hintive that I need to consider at least moving into the 1990s. They know I can't handle the third millenium. In fact, my direction seems to be backward in time, as I have an intense interest in archaeology, anthropology, plate tectonics and astronomy (big bang and expanding universe proponent).

I'd like to continue this discussion, but I need to get back to trying to figure out why I can't get my DVD recorder to work. My granddaughter messed it up 18 months ago, and it hasn't worked since. At this point, I think driving a manual tranny may have been the crowning glory of my technological advance. I've been behind on just about every tech development since then. Thank goodness my 7th gen Maxima handles all the tech stuff; all I have to do is push the right button.

davey6693

For those interested in the efficiency sub-topic:
This link is fairly interesting. It's probably slightly out of date, but it does go into how the efficiency of CVTs compares with that of manual trannies from a system perspective.

To answer my question about heat generation, the paper alludes to higher overall losses in the CVT over the manual tranny when considered in isolation. Losses are in:
The hydraulic operation of the changing pulley diameters
(Slight) belt slippage
Torque converter at startup
Bearing losses from the two shafts which are under high radial stress (due to belt tension), and from the belt itself.

However, it puts the overall driving efficiency of the CVT as about equal to a manual, since the optimal driving curve for the engine can be matched more closely by a CVT.

From my view, I'm convinced enough to call it a wash. The MT can't really go any further of course since 5/6 gears is enough for everyone. The CVT can maybe eke out another few percentage points but I think we'll be talking about similar numbers when all is said and done.

Norm Peterson

Thanks. Looks like I'm in for a lengthy read . . .


I'm not surprised. In overall driving, a CVT should be able to match a 3-D surface map more closely than the intersections of five or six discrete surfaces with it ever could.

Six discrete gears is probably sufficient for any car not capable of over 140 mph or so. After that – and assuming that you have a place to actually drive that fast – there is a little stronger argument for another ratio or (for the very fastest cars) two, as there is more "room" without having ratios needlessly close to one another, a low gear too low, or a top gear too tall. But that's an 'outlier' as far as regular production in meaningful volume relative to overall global sales is concerned.


Norm

lightonthehill

This situation came into play with my '78 Datsun 200SX (which had 13" wheels). The 5 manual ratios were a little too close, so 5th gear was still turning the engine somewhere around 3200 rpms when coasting down the freeway at only 60 mph. I found I was using 5th gear at all speeds above 40 mph.

While watching the local news one evening late in 1979, I saw a wrecker hooking up to a new 1980 200SX that had somehow gone belly-up on the downtown connector. Knowing the 1980 200SX had 14" wheels, I noted the name on the wrecker, called them the next day, and got the 14" wheels and tires for $25 each. The 14" wheels (sanded and painted to fit the customizing I had done on my '78) made a noticable improvement in rpms and noise level at freeway speeds. That little 200SX was my daughter's favorite, and stayed in the family for over ten years.

Norm Peterson

Very true, light.

It's not like every MT has ratios that are chosen all that well for the end use of the vehicle, or for the individual driver either. A nothing-special daily-driver ought to work quite nicely with ratios averaging about 45% higher at each step (e.g. 3.1/2.0/1.4/1.0/0.7), and only 35% higher (2.5/1.85/1.35/1.00/0.75) is getting pretty serious in terms of performance intent. I tend to notice the excessively wide steps more, which on the 1-2 for most everything these days is 60 - 80% (3.31/1.83, 3.38/2.00), although the 2-3 and 4-5 on many are now closer to a 50% step. Still OK for normal street driving, though not quite as pleasant when you're "playing around" a bit and occasionally less than useful at autocross on particularly tight courses.


Norm

lightonthehill

You have it pegged, Norm. As you suggested, engineers are in sort of a quandry when choosing the ratios for a manual, because ratios that are perfect for relaxed driving are not ideal for spirited driving, and vice-versa. So ratios tend to be selected based on the 'sportiness' of the vehicle, and that little 1978 Datsun 200SX coupe sure looked sporty. A 6th (and truly tall) gear/ratio for high speed freeway cruising is sometimes enough to handle this situation.

In many cases, a skilled manual driver can use engine compression/downshifting in place of using the brakes. My daughter loved that manual '78 200SX so much she has owned nothing but manuals her entire life. She made her first daughter learn to drive a manual (by buying her a manual car), and will do the same for her second daughter when she reaches driving age.

Driving manuals can become an obsession. We once had a poster here on the ORG who . . . oh, wait; that was you.

Maxim_ized

At the end of the day, for the type of car that the Maxima is supposed to be (A sporty, stylish, well performing, inclement weather friendly [FWD], modern family car [by modern I mean the smaller 4 person families] with a touch of luxury [but not so much to permanently cost over 40k])...the CVT is an almost perfect fit. Its flexibility allows it to be somewhat performance oriented, while still being tame enough if needed for the wife/significant other if she isn't into performance. The CVT also allows for a respectable level of fuel economy if not driven too hard.

I argue that if true performance is what a person is looking for...then the Maxima is not the best choice. If a person just has to have a manual then there are a few good options in price range of a Maxima namely the Infiniti G37 plus you get a RWD car to boot. You got the BMW 335i, and 535i among others.

And for the record even if it is off topic...the whole 4-Door Sports Car deal is not to be taken too seriously. It's just a nod to the Max being more on the sporty side of the family car market. But then again a sub 6 second 0-60, right under 100 mph in the 1/4 mile at only slightly more than a second slower than the 370Z, and approaching .87 on the skidpad is nothing to dismiss for a family car.

lightonthehill

Maxim_ized - Very well worded. I could not have put it better.

Norm Peterson

Yeah, light, probably was me. I tend to describe myself with term 'hardcore' on this topic both here and elsewhere. Three standard deviations or so above the mean.



For three out of the four cars we've bought since 1979, that's as good a definition of our purchase requirements as anything I could come up with, and the Maxima has fit into that niche quite nicely two of those times (1987 and 2001).

We didn't shop at the Nissan store in 1995 for car #2 since 1979 because of extensive problems with Maxima #1's transmission input shaft bearing (which disassembled itself on three separate occasions, about 50,000 miles apart) and most of the interior switchgear. Too soon, too many bad memories still crystal clear. I know, most folks would have given up on MT's at that point. But like I said, hardcore. Both of us, I guess.


Advertising executives probably hate people like me simply because I won't buy into their neat little slogans and buzz-words with blinders on and go shopping all starry-eyed over whatever they're pitching – claims and slogans have to be backed up with the appropriate levels of fun and performance. Seems simple enough.


Norm