Maxim_ized

'Preciate that lightonthehill. I could have easily purchased other cars but the reasons I stated above are why I bought a Maxima.

Hey Norm if I was the type that bought into marketing slogans I'd have a garage full of Pontiacs..after all they "Build Excitement" correct? Marketing has a job to do, and consumers have a job to do. I didn't even know about the 4DSC campaign (the newest iteration of it anyway) until I was already at the dealership ready to buy the car after becoming pretty intimate with a 2009 Maxima S rental while I was in California blasting through the mountains between 80 and 100 mph...in a family car. It's all relative, I mean like you say, you are hardcore, but to another guy claiming hardcore none of the cars in the list that you own would be good enough. A guy with a Lingenfelter ZR-1 could be like that Mustang GT is not enough...again it's all relative.

I'll say it again, there are other alternatives...it's the beauty of having choices.

Norm Peterson

Unfortunately, I have to make my degree of "hardcore-ness" fit within a financial box of more limited size than some (going through several lengthy periods of unemployment/underemployment as you approach retirement age will do that to you). Anyway, while that box is big enough to consider Maximas, Mustangs and other cars in the $30k neighborhood, it cannot be stretched beyond that by enough to include Corvettes, virtually all BMW's, and probably not the G37 by the time taxes on it are paid. So while financial reality may keep me out of cars that are higher up on the perceived "status" or actual absolute performance scales, it does not place any limit on how we want to be able to drive the cars that we can afford.

The next choice for me may very well be to build it myself. That's actually the relatively easy one.

The next one for the household - it's her turn - is going to be the tough one.

Choices, indeed!


Norm

smarty666

do any of you guys think that Nissan is going to have to add a RWD/AWD manual option to say the sports package of the Max in order to keep it competative with that option which is now available on the Acura TL and too make it the "true 4-dr sports sedan" Nissan tries to bill it as?

I personally like the FWD/CT set-up because of how comfortable the ride and fuel economy is but many want the car to drive and behave more sporty which a RWD-manual option would go a long way of doing!

my concern is, if Nissan was to do this, what then would make the Maxima any different from its RWD G37 manual brother? for almost the same if not only a little bit more money you could then be in the G37 and I think that most people would do that rather than buying a RWD/manual Maxima! plus, the Maxima is selling pretty well for Nissan still averaging between 4-6k sales a month so there doesn't really seem to be any financial incentive for them to change?

what do you guy think Nissan should do? do you think they should leave the Maxima the way it is or offer a RWD/AWD manual option on the sports package on the Max?

lightonthehill

Of course it would be wonderful to have the choice of a manual/AWD/RWD. But Nissan learned this lesson the hard way. They eventually lost millions of dollars giving us a manual option of the Maxima every year from 1981 through 2006, and the percentage of manuals sold dropped every one of those years.

By the time Nissan finally accepted the market's message that the manual Maxima was not wanted, the percentage of Maximas sold with a manual had dropped to around 3%. Even that 3% is misleading, as dealers balked at accepting manuals from Nissan because they couldn't sell them, and when Nissan pushed the manuals on them, dealers usually sold them way below invoice just to free up space on their lot. I had several conversations with my dealer about this; he couldn't GIVE manual Maximas away. Nobody would even look at them.

The message here is NOT that Nissan decided we didn't need a manual Maxima; WE TOLD NISSAN we did NOT WANT the manual Maxima. This is ALL OUR FAULT; NOT NISSAN'S.

Releasing a sports-oriented manual Maxima with AWD or RWD would be economically impractical with a low volume car such as the Maxima, and would be far too incursive into Nissan's Infinity line. We can forget that.

Norm Peterson

Given that Nissan can't/won't justify a FWD/MT combination as it is, I doubt that the niche that a RWD/AWD Maxima with a MT option would fit into is anywhere near big enough to support the necessary chassis redesign and crash recertification. A RWD/MT Max would steal sales from Infiniti, an AWD/MT Max would be priced closer to the G but more than likely end up competing against the Subarus. Not a winning strategy.

A MT Altima would make more sense, and even that has gone away.


Norm

lightonthehill

WOW! I was not aware until now that Nissan had dropped the manual from the Altima with the 2010 model.

It is a given that manuals are not selling well in family cars these days, and may be economically impractical in a low-volume vehicle like the Maxima. But to not have a manual option in a high-volume class leader such as the Altima is a little tough to take.

This leaves Nissan with NO full-size sedan with either a manual or automatic tranny option. Nothing but CVTs as far as the eye can see. Make no mistake, I LOVE my 7th gen Maxima CVT. But to have no optional tranny whatsoever in either the Maxima or Altima seems a bit extreme.

Sales of manual Altimas must have been really dismal to result in this situation. I find this sad . . . sort of like a part of my past is disappearing forever.

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

The 6-speed MT Altima 3.5 SR is available but only for the coupe.

Norm Peterson

Yes, and I probably should have been more specific. It's the same story over at Honda, where if you want a V6 Accord with MT the only way to get it is with two doors.

You can still find a few MT's in what Consumer Reports classifies as "Family Cars", but you have to be willing to "drop back down" to four cylinders and up around 1300 lb/liter of engine displacement (one of my quick-and-dirty daily-driving performance estimators).

30 years ago a coupe was a viable choice for all of our cars; we were younger and a good bit more flexible, and the kids were a lot smaller too.


Norm

smarty666

I tend to agree with your assessment of the situation; but personally I think the Maxima didn't sell well with the manual also because the 5th and 6th Gen was not that popular and at least I felt the 6th gen was not that great looking, just a little too boxy for my taste

But in the whole picture, manuals did become less and less popular and since they didn't sell, it makes financial sense for Nissan to get rid of them in the Maxima!

I personally love the CVT, I'm getting 22-23mpg avg with 28-29mpg on open highway/interstate on trips which is absolutely fabulous for a car with almost 300hp under the hood! only dislike of the CVT is the high/loud whinny noises it make when you step on the gas! But I'll take the good mpg anyday! wouldn't get that mpg in the G37!!

The only disadvantage to the current FWD-CVT pairing I've found now with my first winter with the car is its sloopness in even a tiny amount of snow/slush! What happens is, I think with wet/slippery weather, 290hp is just a little bit too much for its own good for the FWD set-up to handle and I have had a hard time controling the car while I drive with any amount of snow on the ground. I live in NJ and this winter has been worse than usual and I've had plenty of opportunity to do drive in snow! Using the driver sport mode and manually shifiting has helped but the car still slips almost constantly! you would not believe how many times the VDC and slipping warning has come on, almost every 1-2 minutes; the VDC is probably the only thing that has kept me from spinning out and off the road!!! GOD BLESS VDC!!!!

I think eventually, Nissan, at the very least will need to add a AWD option to the Maxima so that people who live in colder/snowier areas of the country can get that incredible 290hp distributed more evenly to all 4 wheels rather than just the 2 front ones!

I would love to have a snow mode, similar to Infiniti, so that 90% of the year you would just use the normal FWD and then in snowys slippy weather you just put on the snow mode to activate the AWD! just a thought, but I have not felt safe driving my Maxima in any kind of snowy weather; plus the extremely loose steering wheel doesn't help trying to make adjustment when driving on slick pavements!

well that was my two cents, I do agree with everyone that a manual for the Maxima doesn't seem plausible at this point but I think that a AWD option wouldn't hurt!

don't get me wrong, except in slippy/snowy weather, the rest of the year, even in heavy rain, the Maxima handles excellent and the FWD option works just fine for the other 90% of the year!!!!

Norm Peterson

I didn't realize that you were a fellow New Jerseyan. Yeah, we had fun this morning in our 5th Gen too - even with only 3.0 liters and a viscous limited slip diff, wheelspin is real easy to come by after the salt goes down on the roads but before they get scraped/swept bare. And once that happens, directional control pretty much goes out the window (and the nose gets very good at finding out which way "downhill" is). Even 3rd gear barely off idle @ ~1000 rpm could get them loose with very little throttle today.

Perhaps you can fill in a little gap in my understanding of acronyms - just what is "VDC"? I think I might know what it is by its generic name, but I'm not at all sure.


Norm

smarty666

hey Norm, nice to hear from a fellow New Jerseyan as well! yeah, this winter has been worse then usual for us considering the last several had been pretty mild! I've just come to realization that 290hp is probably the highest on the market in a FWD platform because most others who have 300hp+ in a V6 engine most I believe are RWD! thats a tremendous amount of hp and torque to having spinning through the front wheel ONLY when the road is slick and slippery!

anyway, VDC stands for Vehicle Dynamic Control, another name for electronic stability control, which is becoming standard in most cars now because of how nice of a safety feature it is; I think Nissan, after being complained at for years, finally made it standard across the entire Altima line regardless of what one you get; pre-2010 I think you could only get it in the V6 models of the Altima!

anyway, because the car slips a lot when the road is slick, the VDC has been great in trying to compensate for the slipping and prevented the car from spinning out!!

ME HEART VDC!!!

lightonthehill

VDC is Vehicle Dynamic Control (although I have heard Nissan dealers/service techs refer to it as 'vehicle directional control'). It is simply Nissan's name for their electronic stability system.

Nissan's VDC constantly monitors our steering and braking actions, comparing them with what the vehicle is actually doing. If it senses an understeer (plowing) or oversteer (first indication of impending fishtailing), VDC will selectively apply braking to the appropriate wheels until the car is once again under control. If necessary, VDC can even reduce engine power. Just as computers are used to control today's high performance fighter jets because humans cannot react quickly enough, VDC can prevent a spin or fistail situation because it can react more quickly, and more selectively, than a human can. For instance, a human has no way to apply braking to just one or two wheels.

But then I'm sure you know all about electronic stability control, and were just asking what Nissan's VDC acronym stood for.


EDIT - OOPS! Smarty responded while I was laboriously typing my response in. I should have learned to type when young. But didn't.

lightonthehill

I will add that electronic stability control really works. That has been proven many times by many testers. That is why the government is pushing it.

I picked out exactly the equipment I wanted on my '04 SL before they reached the dealer's lots in March 2003 (generation 6 had the earliest release of any new generation Maxima). But it wasn't until May of 2004 (over a YEAR later) that I found exactly the '04 SL I had been waiting for. That lost year was attributable to ONE THING: I was not interested in any vehicle without electronic stability control, and only around 5% of '04 Maximas were built with VDC. Of course that 6th generation VDC package also included a full-size spare tire and alloy wheel exactly like the four on the ground, which was nice.

As one who fishtailed around this earth from 1949 until 2004, I will never own another car without stability control. And those who say 'a skilled driver would have . . . etc, etc,' are not correct. The power steering in use on vehicles up until '04 (maybe even now) did not allow the instantaneous extreme reversal of the steering wheel necessary to recover from a fishtail. VCD, however, can act instantaneously.

smarty666

its funny, it has gotten so many different names over the years depending on the manufacturer and who you talk to

Electronic Stability Control
Vehicle Dynamic Control
Vehicle Stability Assist

etc etc etc etc etc!

Maxim_ized

Hmm, I'm in the mountains of Tennessee and it has been nasty with snow, slush, freezing rain...not to mention all the hills and mini mountains in the area. Heck even with low profile 19's I have NEVER ran into a problem with slipping or poor handling in the snow. FWD is actually preferable in inclement snowy, wet weather conditions. Of course AWD is better but in most cases FWD is just fine.

A lot of people...yes even the ones who live in snowy regions are unfamiliar with how to drive in snowy/icy weather. You can't accelerate and brake as abruptly, it has to be gradual. The Maxima has excellent throttle manipulation, it recognizes even the most minute of manipulations...sometimes you just gotta put the lead foot away.

smarty666

well most of what you say is true, though I have noticed driving at a consisten 40-50mph on a highway with a coating of slush/snow on the highway I have felt the front of the car under the front wheels slip off and on while driving; it had to be slipping for the VDC to flash often on when I feel the slipping! it hasn't been anything severe to the point that the VDC and myself could not control the car

also keep in mind, a lot of the reason I think this happens is not only because of the car but a lot of it has to do with the typically lousy OEM RS-As Nissan has on the car; if the car had some Michelins or really good HUP tires I think that could make a huge difference!!

lightonthehill

[QUOTE=smarty666;7441820]I have felt the front of the car under the front wheels slip off and on while driving; it had to be slipping for the VDC to flash often on when I feel the slipping! it hasn't been anything severe to the point that the VDC and myself could not control the car
QUOTE]



We should just be VERY thankful we are not driving a RWD vehicle. I drove RWD vehicles from 1949 until 1984, and none of them were worth a wad of spit in any amount of snow. With the weight over the front wheels, the rear wheels just just sat on top of the snow with no weight on them and spun.

Like Maxim_ized said, when driving on snow, etc, we must drive like there is a raw egg between our foot and the gas/brake pedal.

I have had no problem driving on snow (except on steeper slopes) with all Maxima generations from 2nd through 7th. The 1st generation Maxima was, of course, a RWD platform derived from the Datsun 810.

But I must admit I have never tackled 'Noo Joisie' roads in wintertime; such a thought is frightening.

smarty666

[quote=lightonthehill;7441952]your absolutely right, despite the fact all Infiniti's are RWD, you'll be extremely hard press to find any Infiniti on the lot that doesn't have the all wheel drive option, because they know about the inherent problems RWDs have in any kind of lousy weather and most people with RWD want that AWD option, at least I did when I had my FX35!!

Norm Peterson

I was afraid that's what was meant. Electronically interfering with vehicle control scared me long before the current Toyota difficulties hit the media.

Some are tuned to activate at unreasonably low levels of cornering - I think I've seen magazine reports of ESC activation down in the mid-0.6 lateral g range. On a nice dry day with no traffic and a "road" (on-ramp, generally) that I'm familiar with, I'll be up there. In any of my cars.

Can it be turned off?

Has anybody driven hard enough on dry or damp pavement to make it kick in?

If you purchase tires at a later date that are significantly grippier than to OE fitment, will the VDC still activate at the same level or is it smart enough to let the driver use the newly added increment of performance?


I hate to keep sounding like a crotchety old geezer about "newfangled technology", but I REALLY don't want the way that (under the proper conditions) I might choose to drive be limited and squeezed into some little box that somebody else is more comfortable having me in.

I rather hope this sidetrack doesn't go too much further - it's probably a subject for the "Advanced Suspension, Chassis, and Braking" section anyway.


Norm

smarty666

well in most cars, the Nissan's included, there is a button I think off to the left side of the steering wheel on the dash I think down under by the manual override slot for the Intelligent Key that says VDC and if you push it in it deactivates it but a warning will come on because it is not recommended to be off - and the computer makes a record that its off so if your ever in a accident with someone else and they find that the VDC was off you could be in some legal trouble!

anyway, I understand how you don't like the computer of the car to monitor and take semi control and matters into its own hands but personally, this is the third or fourth car I've had it in and I have found that it has saved me several times from going off the road; when the car slips, most people inherently panic and either over compensate and cause themselves to go off the road! I have found that the VDC does a good job of preventing that because it compensates to a certain percent and thus the driver only has to give minor feedback through the wheel to keep the car on the road

I think the VDC is a good thing; just keep in mind, don't let this thing with Toyota give you a scare! unlike Toyota and Honda, Nissan has a brake override system in the car, so I wouldn't worry about UA or any other electrical problems causing you to crash; after the lastest thing with Toyota, both them and I bet Honda too, will add a brake override system!

67whitegoat

iTrader: (4)

Where did you get this information. If you are in an accident were you are at fault, you are responsible whether the VDC is on or not. If you are not at fault, the VDC has no bearing what so ever. Don't believe everything you here.

smarty666

take a chill pill, I guess I wasn't specific enough to not get someone to jump down my throat, I'm just saying, the VDC is a major safety feature in the car, a reason why the Gov't wants it to be a standard feature in all cars

when you disengage the VDC yourself, the on board computer makes a record of it, another reason why the owner's manual, and the on board warning flashes that its off and recommends it be reactivated; obviously, if your in a accident where it is your fault, such as if you rear ended someone, then obviously if the VDC was on or off, it won't make a difference because you are at fault; but most accidents are not so cut and dry with who is at fault, and I've read enough online from federal agencies, legal proceedings etc, and in cases, such as if the car spins out of control and you hit someone else or some other instance where you lose control of the car and hit someone, if the insurance company and lawyers finds the VDC was off, and trust me they will, if they can, hook your on board computer up and get that kind of information, you might be held responsible even if it was an unattended accident on your part because you were driving around not having a key safety feature activated on your car that might have prevented the spin out, etc! I've seen it happen!

here is the simple lesson, always drive your car with your VDC, VSA, VSC, or whatever it is called ON at ALL TIMES!! you should never turn it off! there is a reason why the gov't wants electronic stability assist on all cars and why both the owners manual and warning display in the dash warns you not to disengage it and drive with it off!

lightonthehill

Smarty666 - Absolutely correct on all counts.

Norm - The VDC can be turned off with the flick of a switch. I have only turned my '09 VDC off one time - long enough to do a little severe driving in an empty mall lot early one Sunday morning. Then I turned it back on and tried the same maneuvers with the VDC on. It was difficult to trigger the VDC on dry pavement, as only a situation bordering on out-of-control activates it. I was impressed with the results. I had done the same test five years ago with the VDC on my '04 Maxima, and it worked well also.

I will never be driving with it off. I can't speak for other manufacturer's electronic stability control systems, but Nissan's VDC really works. Electronic Stability systems have been under test by the government for over a decade, and they strongly endorse them.

You asked whether it 'adjusts' for such things as replacing the so-so OEM tires with stickier ones. By the very nature of what triggers it to act, it absolutely does adjust. If the car is not skidding in a way that is aproaching an out-of-control situation, the VDC just stays asleep and lets you have your fun.

I think back to the fishtails that led me up banks and down into ditches back in the 1950s and 1960s (I did a huge amount of high-speed coast-to-coast driving before the interstate system was built), and know beyond any doubt that most of those accidents would never have happened had a good electronic stability system been available at that time.

It is wrong to equate ESS systems with Toyota's electronics problems. I posted somewhere here last year that gas pedals and sliding carpets were not the problem, that Toyota was trying to sweep a very serious problem under the rug, and that it knew of this problem at least six years ago. I suspected it as early as 1996, when folks driving Toyotas always seemed to end up in court because they plowed into another vehicle with tremendous force, then denied hitting the gas pedal instead of the brakes. Several of these poor slobs went to prison for manslaughter, and now several of their cases are being reopened by district attorneys.

For me, the whole attitude of Toyota is shown by the fact the ONLY Lexus being recalled is the hybred, where the brakes can fail during the changeover between gas power and electric power. It is an absolute travesty that Lexus owners have not yet been warned they have exactly the same runaway problem as other Toyotas.

Remember the California Highway Patrolman who was driving his top-of-the-line Lexus LS on an open freeway last year when the car took off on its own? He had three family members with him, and they were calling 911 and pleading for help, because the car was doing 120, and there were no brakes. They shot off the highway when the freeway ended, exploding in a ball of flames. All four aboard were incinerated. And yet Toyota STILL has told Lexus owners nothing. This situation is going to get far worse before it ever gets better. I am stunned that a company like Toyota has butchered this thing so horribly.

67whitegoat

iTrader: (4)

smarty, please don't take my take my statement the wrong way. No exclamation points, no inflection in my "voice", no ill will. I wasn't, and i'm not now, jumping down your throat. I don't no why people think i'm upset or mad when I type. I'm not. I only commented because your first statement seemed so absolute. I agree with you (and light for that matter). The VDC is an important safety feature and I will not be driving with it off. I really see no reason to turn it off. The dealer told me I would turn it off if I got stuck in the mud…..yah, like I'm going to have my car in some mud.

smarty666

I like what your dealer said to you! lol!!!

Jopa416

Maybe for you this statement is true "There was a time and place for the manual Transmission. Don't get me wrong though I do enjoy rowing my own gears but it has to be the right car and the right place. A daily driver with a manual transmission these days just isn't pracitcal. It takes me about a 1/2 hour to go about 10 miles." but everyone in the world does not live in a place where it takes 1/2 an hour to go 10 miles. I prefer a manual & have no problem in the traffic I face each day. Kind of arrogant to decree manual's are unpractical for all based on your personal situation.

Jopa416

I agree. When this Toyota recall first came out I though that the government, who now owns 2 car companies, was simply on a witch hunt to kill a competitor, and that is probably partially true. However, I now believe that Toyota has real problem with their drive by wire systems. Drive by/Steer by wire systems are just flat out bad ideas. Computers MAKE MISTAKES all of the time & I would guess that there is a serious glitch in Toyotas systems. In my experience, as an IT Director, computer problems like this tend to get worse over time.

lightonthehill

There are still a few places where a manual can be fun, but the reality is that Nissan tried very hard to keep producing a manual Maxima, and lost a ton of money doing do. When we add the lack of manual Maxima buyers, the separate certification requirements, the cost/profitability factor, the fact the Maxima is now a low-volume near-luxury family sedan, the fact most families now have at least one (if not all) drivers who can't drive a manual, it becomes clear producing a manual Maxima would be very impractical for Nissan.

Jopa416

I agree with you on the financials of the situation, but I would be willing to pay optionally for the 6-Speed in my cars. Nissan has done the engineering for a 6-speed with the Maxima Engine, they are just trying to wring every dollar out of a "one size fits all" solution in the US market. In these days of all cars being automatic there is just nothing special between the manufacturers....a nissan is a honda is a toyota is a mazda is a.......

smarty666

well I never thought the Gov't was trying to do that, and personally, I like Toyota, I think they make some nice products, just not sporty enough for me, namely the reason why I have a Acura, Infiniti, and Nissan!! But what finally make me lose some respect for Toyota is not that they have recalls on their products, every single car manufacturer does, Ford and GM being the king and queen of them, but their is documented proof that Toyota lied and hide these problems, which is what is the thing that really bothers me about the situation ! No, company, and I would be just as mad with Nissan, Infiniti, or Acura if they did the same thing, should ever ever hide or lie about potential safety problems with their cars!

Despite having some troubling experience with Nissan corporate customer service, and actually Nissan and Infiniti are at the bottom of the industry for poor customer service, link below, whenever there has been a recall on my Nissan or Infiniti, I've always gotten a letter in the mail stating my vehicle was in a recall, and have gotten a call, without calling myself, from my local Nissan and Infiniti dealer about scheduling a time to come in and have the warranty recall work done!!

http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/2010...r-csi-study/#2

as you can see from the link above though, Nissan and Infiniti have a long way to go to improving their customer service at the dealership and corporate level!!

Jopa416

I agree Smarty.

Norm Peterson

I've understood that in at least some cars shutting it off was possible. But notes of this capability in magazine test reports is somewhat spotty, and I wouln't expect the local sales force to understand my position - really understand it - assuming that they knew enough about a 'defeat' procedure to talk about it. And were permitted to.

That possibility doesn't particularly worry me. My 5th Gen has been carrying around a stored code for a bad left rear wheel sensor for at least a year and that doesn't bother me either.


As carefully as I can put this . . .

I suspect that while you are intellectually aware that a position like mine can exist, you probably don't have the gut-feel understanding of what it means to see things from that point of view and with that perspective.

I can't claim that my driving record hasn't been absolutely squeaky-clean since day 1 of driving solo, but it has been nearly so for 40 years come this December (and I think I can remember everything of note, all the way down to traffic citations, without having to look any of it up). I'll rank the value of my lifetime of experience behind the wheel above that of any arbitrary limits set by others. And add that perhaps I have a little better understanding of vehicle dynamics than many . . .

Dealing with intellectual recommendations is one thing - information posted on roadside signs falls into this category - as I am still free to disregard them as long as I am comfortable with the risk of whatever the possible consequences might be. But incorporating technology that takes physical vehicle control decisions out of my hands is like putting the training wheels back on my bicycle without my consent.


What scares me is that the electronics can still get things wrong from time to time. It's a problem inherent with trying to convert the analog business of life into digital format. Digital is an "either-or" format, and you get either the right answer/response or the wrong one. No room for judgement calls or response that falls "in between".

VDC probably does have its places in the world, but only as long as you don't come to rely on it to let you get around or expect it to let you drive in the bad conditions pretty much as you would under better ones. This thought really scares me, since physics will ultimately remove "control" from the electronics, too. And people whose driving life consists entirely of being under the guidance of these systems won't have a clue what to do if the system goes inop or worse. They may never know what it feels like to have a car get a little loose at one end or the other, let alone have that sensation prompt them to do anything close to appropriate about it.

My mention of Toyota was intended only to note that electronics are not infallible (though many people seem to regard them as being so). BTW, I have read a pdf copy of a preliminary report on the Toyota throttle issue that was prepared by an entity external to Toyota. It's strictly a technical evaluation that has nothing to do with Toyota's handling of the issue. It's a little scary, even though the required combination of occurrences is unlikely to occur very often. The same sort of healthy skepticism should be maintained for any other component or system that can appropriate vehicle dynamic control.

Don't give the electronic nannies God-like status.


Norm

Norm Peterson

This has me less than convinced. In theory, it could be the case. But it clearly is not necessarily so, else the limits of those vehicles that are held down to mid-0.6x lateral g range would be at least a tenth of a lat-g higher simply because few passenger tires (if any) have grip that's that low.

I see one or more absolute limits being possible to program - the three way 'Off - Sport - On' for some of the higher end sporty cars comes to mind. On = conventional VDC, Sport allows a bit more wheel spin/slip and "permission" to use more of the vehicle's ultimate performance, and Off is (generally) no VDC interference at all. Even then, I think some cars might turn the VDC on again following an ABS event. I'm sure I saw it somewhere.

There has to be a yaw sensor of some sort present in order to determine if the yaw, yaw rate, or yaw acceleration is outside the limits of where vehicle speed and steering wheel position say it should be. And Nissan is certainly going to optimally calibrate THEIR vdc for THEIR choice of oe tires and wheels.



Intended only with respect to illustrating the differences between digital and analog (human) interpretation of input data. Computers make their decisions based on implications from a limited amount of data as compared to a finite amount of stored information. Not real-time evaluation of the entirety of the situation at hand.

Don't get me wrong - when a computer is doing the right thing, it can certainly do it faster than you or I can. But it's equally quick at getting things either completely wrong, or at least possibly inappropriate for the specific car-driver-road-maneuver combination.



I'm also aware of that issue, and it bothers me as well. And again, the root problem is still a case of the electronics being very good/quick at doing what they're programmed to do - even if it's a poor decision. But T's management behavior is inexcusable.


Yes.

The preliminary report mentioned in my reply above provides a likely scenario for precisely what happened.

Probably contributing to that incident was (1) the push-to-start button option and (2) lack of familiarity of those who exclusively or almost exclusively drive automatics with the concept of selecting 'N' when things start to go wrong. I bounced the question off my wife as to whether she'd have selected 'N' in an AT car, and while she couldn't say 'yes' in that specific transmission situation (it's not recently common for her to have driven AT either) her response was "Wouldn't you just step on the clutch?". Anecdotal to be sure, but I think at least slightly indicative.


Norm

smarty666

well I hear where you are coming from; I too miss the days when cars where almost all made with metal, rather than all this cheap plastic crap they put in now a days, yet charge us more and I miss the days when a mechanic used to have to put the car up on a lift and thoroughly look over the engine compartment and other areas to find what was going on rather than just hooking up the cars computer to a computer diagnostic program that normally tells you nothing of what is going on and then sends you on your way! I wish it wasn't that way but it is!

Unfortunately, I tend to agree with you, the more technology, electronics, computerizing, etc that is done to the cars, the higher and higher chance for things to go wrong increases and lets face it, cars are highly advanced and complicated pieces of machinery that are designed and put together by IMPERFECT human beings so there is bound, from time to time, for problems to crop up, and Toyota has certainly demonstrated that to us right now!

that is one of the main reasons why when I get cars I watch how much technology I get in my cars; I don't get the nav systems, all around monitors, intelligent cruise controls, lane departure warning systems, etc etc etc because the more stuff you get the more things you have that can go wrong or break and they are really expensive things to replace, especially factory navigation systems, plus they crash your residual value substantially!

lightonthehill

Norm - Being retired from 35 years in computer technology, I am painfully aware of the pitfalls inherent in this technology. One example might be something such as a clerk filling out payroll checks by hand, where a mistake would probably affect only one person. But with a computer program handling the payroll, even one misplaced or omitted period/decimal point could easily send a hundred million dollar check to each of thousands of people.

For me, the clear and undeniable advantages of electronic stability control lie in four areas:

1 - It can easily be turned off by a well-marked switch by those who choose not to use it.

2 - Although you and I are very experienced drivers (I have been driving for over sixty years, and have driven well over a million miles), the average driver we encounter on the road is far less-experienced, and can use any help available in preventing accidents.

3 - Although there will be those who may not believe this, power steering is not capable of reacting as fast as humans. I have had dozens of incidents in my life where I have been turning the steering wheel one way, then tried to instantly turn it the other way (such as when correcting a near-fishtailing situation), only to find the wheel would not allow me to turn it the other way for at least a fourth of a second, and sometimes longer. That is far too long in a crisis situation.

4 - (By FAR the most important) Electronic stability control has the ability to INSTANTLY apply/release braking to any combination of INDIVIDUAL wheels in order to optimize the corrective action, where the driver cannot apply/release braking to individual wheels.

Government testing has confirmed what car magazine testing and car manufacturer's testing is showing, which is that ESC (VDC) actually works, and can prevent certain accidents.

A good analogy here is modern jet fighters, where even the best and most experienced pilots are not able to make the instant analysis and take the instant corrective action necessary to properly fly the plane, but computers can easily do exactly what is necessary.

Of course we can maybe find an area or two where we might enjoy 'doing our thing' without ESC kicking in and spoiling our fun. But that is beside the point. We can turn the ESC off if we want to horse around. But having ESC is WITHOUT QUESTION going to prevent many accidents and save many lives, especially with inexperienced drivers.

I personally will never even consider the possibilty of owning a vehicle without VSC.

Norm Peterson

light - not intended as being argumentative; just to provoke some thoughts.

1. Agreed with respect to the ability to disengage it, and I suppose that in conjunction with your item 2 it's best for anybody wishing to experiment without it that they be going into it as the result of a considered decision.

But . . .

2. I fear that the skill set involved with the driver himself sensing an impending slide and applying the appropriate corrective action is going to be lost.
Many drivers tend to be of a "stomp and steer" mindset as it is, rather than treating the pedals as continuously variable controls for which smoothly varying the inputs is desirable behavior.

3. Pump catch. Happens when your demand on the hydraulics outstrips the ability of the pump to keep up. I've experienced it too, though generally a low PS fluid level or simply that the fluid was cold was also involved. I've felt the beginnings of a little heaviness (nowhere near a "locked" or "frozen" steering) once or twice at autocross, which is a driving activity that may at times be only a little less frantic than a crash avoidance maneuver (but is always maintained either for an extended time duration or encountered multiple times all within a one minute time frame).

4. Agreed. Never mind that the last thing a driver in an incipient spin situation needs is something else to properly choose and then execute even if manual control of individual wheels was made possible.



Not to dismiss the jet fighter analogy out of hand, but they operate under a slightly different set of rules. My understanding is that for reasons or maneuverability (necessary as a tactical advantage) they aren't always in an intrinsically stable flight condition, so the pilot does need the computers' speed in order to stay on top of the situation. Control inputs from the pilot override the electronics to let whatever the intended maneuver was, happen. Car design will never be permitted to get that close to the edge of disaster.


Norm

Norm Peterson

You can buy your own code scantool from any number of places, including Sears. $200 or so that I consider well spent. The better ones will read the freeze-frame data that gets stored when the code is set, and can also be used in real time to watch what's happening that you can't see. Even while the car is moving.

Odd, but EFI and code scanning is one of the new technology items that I prefer. OBDII tells you where to start looking, though you may need to think a little further if the root cause isn't something obvious like a dead O2 sensor.

I don't see myself ever going back to carburetors for any reason.

I figure that my Actron 9145 has saved me the better part of $1000 already just in diagnostic fees. Add to that about $100/hour labor rate for whatever actual mechanical work was then involved. My lives-in-my-house son-in-law has a $4000 professional scantool (he used to be a shop tech) that has still greater capabilities, though I realize that most folks don't have that sort of easy access.


Norm

Norm Peterson

Absolutely.

The "raw egg" analogy was the one my Mom used when she was getting me started as a driver. That, and a "see-saw" analogy for what your feet should be doing with the gas and clutch pedals when starting from a dead stop.

Anyway, what you're trying to do is not request more grip than exists, or put in a request for the grip that does exist too abruptly, which is exactly what a race car or autocross driver has to know how to do if he/she is going to be the least bit successful at it. On the public streets, it's just that the speeds involved before you come unglued from the pavement under winter weather conditions and the forces involved during the spinning/sliding itself are much lower.


It seems to me that as the years have gone by, there has become much heavier use of melting substances and less of just the gritty stuff. That's something of a two-edged sword, since one of the side effects of reducing the depth of snow on the road is having to cope with more slush in the short term immediately following each storm. Slush has some of the disavantages of loose snow (its depth and lack of firmness) and damp ice (low friction).

Snow, per se, didn't ever seem to be that big of a deal back in 1960's New England, when few people had even heard of FWD (let alone own a car so equipped - I can remember seeing a total of two Citroens before I moved away in 1970 and to the best of my recollection that was it). They used to call it "sanding the roads" back then.


Norm

Maxim_ized

Wow, now I think some people are looking a little too deep into this. I'll try to keep this simple.

First time I EVER drove a 7th Generation Nissan Maxima was at the end of January...a rental from Enterprise, it was a base model S. I fly into San Jose and drive to Fresno since it's cheaper than to fly directly into Fresno. The trip from San Jose to Sn Jose you must go through a mountain range called Pacheco Pass. One mistake and you can fly off the road deep into a ravine.

Anyway I was surprised at how I was able to sustain long curves at 90mph plus and even one time reaching 100 mph and the car never felt uncomposed or unsafe doing so. As a matter of fact I was surprised how responsive it was to throttle steering. I never saw any warnings of VDC or anything of the nature. As a matter of fact I didn't even know it had VDC at the time. Mind you the S does not have the "sport tuned" suspension, nor sticky tires...and on top of that it was a rental with many miles.

So I'll say this...no need to make excuses on why you wouldn't buy one of these...either you like it or you don't. Why go into these long drawn out theoretical/technical discussions with engineering mumbo jumbo. Ok, ok we get it, no Manual transmission and its a FWD...and it has a 4DSC sticker on the rear windows. If you feel like these are problems then take your money elsewhere. Nobody is making you buy a Maxima or even trying to convince you. Why post here, go to a G37 forum and praise that car, or go find a 5 series forum, or maybe an A6/S6 forum. I'm sure the CTS-V has a forum you could post to.

Pre-conceived bias is the culprit of most of these discussions, I suspect most of the criticism is coming from people who never even driven one. All people see is CVT,FWD and then the poo-pooing begins. If this car does not provide the performance/specs you "need" then I'd ask why are you even looking at this class of car anyway.

lightonthehill

Yes, slush is not a great surface on which to drive. The slush was usually created by use of salt to melt snow, and salty slush being splashed all over the bottom, sides, and even top of a car is not an ideal thing. Today's automobile rustproofing is good, but not perfect. When the temp invariable drops well below freezing again at night, the slush freezes into solid ice with a very irregular surface that makes steering the next morning almost impossible.

Because of the rusting tendency of salt, I have always preferred the use of sand. But even there, the sand used is often a mixture of sand and small gravel, and this material will be left on the roadway after the snow and ice is gone, and plays havoc when tossed up by semis and other vehicles.

The only complete answer is the elimination of winter.