Alright, so I'm considering buying an RSB and have an LTB2 on the way. My question is this:

I have spent a total of $50 on my suspension so far, Progress with Koni Yellows (Konis came on car). I notice very little body roll with this setup. Will a $120 RSB be worth it? I'm trying to drive a little less but will still take the occasional cathartic mountain run and can definitely appreciate added steering response. Since the LTB2 should promote understeer, I'm thinking I might want to deal with that before it rears its ugly head.

I was hoping to wait and buy used... but I'm leaning towards the group deal price. I'm just afraid I won't notice much of a difference. Do you notice anything before the limit when you've already got some decent spring rates?

 

Its definetly noticeable, but when lowered is not totally necesary. I think youll like having one. It does help steering response and will reduce body roll. But is will add some harshness to the overall ride. Some also belive it binds the rear up some.

When I 1st put mine on it made a hell of a difference, but I was on intrax and stock struts. But when I got Eibachs and AGX I felt it was a bit too much. Now that Im on coilovers I decided I didnt need it anymore.

 

I noticed the difference adding a RSB to my Progress/HP (now Illumina) set-up.

 

Btw here's a link to the thread I started, where I also included links to other threads debating the effectiveness of a RSB on an already upgraded suspension.

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=412478

 

What affect, do you think an Addco RSB would have on a stock '92 SE, with all Poly Bushings?

 

A RSB resists differential compression of the two sides of the rear suspension, which works to spread cornering loads across both tires. In general, it will help quicken your car's response and reduce body roll. It's almost as though it takes grip away from the rear and adds it to the front, thus shifting the balance away from understeer and toward oversteer. If you're going to think of it that way, take into account that much more grip is taken away from the rear than is added to the front.

If you're on stock suspension, or have coilovers with massively stiffer springs in front than in back (as most do with the default rates for our cars), you have so much understeer that adding the RSB can only help. Thing is, most aftermarket spring sets are already made to dial out understeer. I'm not sure about the Progress springs in particular, but some springs in combination with a sway bar can leave you with nothing but oversteer. Good for some, bad for others. It's ultimately a preference thing, and whatever happens you can be pretty sure that your car won't be violently tail-happy. Just make sure you know what you're getting into.

Other potential downsides come from a lack of compliance in the rear suspension, which can make your rear end skitter out if you hit a bump in mid-corner. The higher resistance to load transfer can also prevent your outside tire from pushing water out from under it, making your car a little more of a handful in the rain. As you can imagine, each of those is double trouble in combination with a higher oversteer bias.

Never forget that if your LTB2 adds understeer, it's only because your front end is no longer twisting in such a way that helps keep your tires stay in contact with the road. Grip is good, but grip due to chassis flex is inconsistent and easily unsettled at best. I don't know if that helps at all, but it's certainly the kind of thing that makes me not feel as bad about my car's foibles.

In any case, add the RSB with caution. Make sure you know exactly what it is you want to change about your car's behavior, and make sure the RSB will do the trick without any unwanted side-effects.

 

Hey, thanks... but how uninformed do you think I am? Haha... I know exactly what it is mechanically, what it does in terms of suspension performance and car behavior at the limit, but I'm not sure how noticeable it is with some decent suspension already. In the end I don't think I'm going to do it, mostly because of the ride issue (I'm not big on compromise). It would be nice to have a little less push through the turns though, I've experienced all sorts of oversteer in countless situations in countless cars, both FWD and RWD, and I can definitely handle it and definitely miss it. However, I'm not sure if it's worth it at this point, and I know the ride degradation would get to me.

Thanks for all the input guys.

 

I just meant how it feels with a stock suspension with poly bushings, as well as keeping a stock FSB.

 

I say it's worth it. Mine saved my car, maybe even my life, yesterday...

 

Oh, you'll feel it.

All it comes down to is whether a little extra steering response and less understeer would be worth the reduced compliance, higher tendency to oversteer, and the possibility of ending up with less total grip.

 

Yeah, I'm still not sure. I also just lost my 2GB SD card and might have to buy another one, I'm on a pretty strict budget.

I just drove my car around today and my car feels like it has literally no body roll. We'll see when I get the LTB if I think I need it or not.

Oversteer would actually be nice, I've used to having the occasional twitch or slide and have a lot of fun dealing with it.

 

Keep us posted. I'm interested to see just how much flex the LTB kills...

 

I noticed a minimal difference in handling, although I'm still on stock struts I'm sure when I upgrade to some Illuminas, it will improve dramatically.

 

I will keep you posted, my ex promised me she'd pick it up for me and bring it down to SB. Of course, she's not exactly what you'd call dependable or independent, and that's part of the reason that she's my ex. But I think she'll come through on this final favor.

 

Well she finally picked up the LTB2 today, so I'll be putting it on sometime for sure. I'll probably do LTB2 + camber bolts/alignment + all sway bar bushings at the same time.

 

Howdy all. New here and thought I'd chime in on the Maxima/I-30 sway bar issue.

As most of you know, this rear suspension is a "twist beam" design where individual vertical wheel deflection is determined by how much the U-channel around the "axle" and between the wheels twists. I behaves like a single torsion bar.

Ideally, a sway bar should have it's main body fastened to the car body and the ends controlling vertical wheel deflection. Unfortunately, since this is not a true independent suspension, this would limit total rear suspension too much. Besides, there is nowhere beefy enough to mount the body of the sway bar in the same manner as the front suspension. Both Progressive/Cattman and Stillen have worked around this limitation by attaching the entire bar to the twist beam to help it resist twisting. It's a decent workaround, but it has two huge disadvantages:

1. It effectively makes the stock "semi-independent" rear suspension even less independent than the sub-optimal twist beam allows for. It becomes more like a standard "live axle" setup as a result. Fine, if you like the way a Mustang handles and always drive on billiard-table roads. Add bumps and you get side-hop. This is bad.

2. The 20+ pound mass of the sway bar is all below spring level and entirely mounted to the trailing links and twist beam. This adds 10+ pounds of unsprung weight *per wheel* to an already compromised setup and slows suspension response considerably. The wheels simply cannot change vertical direction fast enough while carrying this mass. Extra unsprung weight is a killer. When it's twenty *pounds*, it's a disaster.

These two strikes are cumulative. IMO, an RSB in the Max/I-30 is a very bad idea under these circumstances. If someone thinks otherwise, I'm open to discussion.

Since the Stillen part is less heavy than the Progressive design, it's a better bet if you insist on using an RSB. Frankly, I would recommend a good adjustable-damping shock like the Tokico Illuminas and leave it at that. The twist-beam suspension is just not swaybar-friendly.

I've also posted this reply to the NICO forums. Apologies for the duplication.

 

Interesting perspective. So maybe it's not oversteer bias that's making some people lose the rear end, but rather poor traction over rough surfaces or bumps due to the high inertia and low compliance of the rear suspension with the RSB...

 

I'll take mine off soon when I adjust the rear beam and see how it feels w/o it.

 

While in theory everything you have said is correct, in actual practice is is far less cut-and-dry. We can delve into the technical basis for all of this, but I find that it is more useful to relate actual driving experience with it. To that end, here's mine: I've both driven long spans on the road with and without the Stillen RSB, and also competed in autocrosses with and without it.

Frankly, I disliked having it off. Unless you drive on HORRIBLE roads all the time, the loss of suspension travel (binding) and reduction of independent action is negligible. The roads here are generally pretty poor, and I've found that the RSB had little effect on the rear end hopping, especially when combined with (as you say) a good spring/strut combination.

For those of us who autocross, the RSB induces more oversteer, which is a major plus in the sometimes-futile attempt to "rotate the rear end" of the maxima. Now, a RSB-equipped maxima with no other suspension work in the hands of an inexperienced or over-reactive driver can truly be dangerous IMO. But for an experienced driver (especially those with track experience), it's really not an issue. And frankly I have never experienced accidental snap-oversteer in the maxima.


Obviously though, like any suspension modifications, the benefits and risks depend of the driver's style. Some people accelerate through the turn, some people brake through the turn......these methods will yield considerably different results when combined with a sway bar - especially over rough roads. And for people who tend to trail-brake alot....they do NOT need a RSB!


Anyhow, thanks for the inputs. Always good to have some technical discussion around here as Norm Peterson hasn't been around in a while

btw, what car/setup are you running and what is your reason for making this your first post....out of curiosity?

 

maybe it's the fact that too many morons on here are slammed 2" low on s-techs and stock struts, and then add to that the fact that they are 18-year-olds who don't know how to drive.

just sayin...


I can't say I've ever lost the rear end accidentally. It's hard enough to do it on purpose. The rear skips a bit on the very hardest of highway exits with big bumps, but it's almost a non-issue if you accelerate THROUGH the turn. It's also pretty much a non-issue if you have SFCs

 

Point taken.

 

My old 98 SE had stock suspension and I added an Addeco RSB six or so months into ownership. The car had a difference on corners but nothing to write home about.

However on my 1996 Maxima, Rear beam bent to 0 Toe > Stillen RSB.

I got this car with Eibach springs and AGX struts along with a Stillen RSB. I drove this combo for many years getting very used to it.

In 2006 I got the chance to get the rear beam set to 0 Toe. Before getting the rear beam bent you have to remove any RSB that's installed. The Stillen RSB was so stuck in there I had to remove the whole beam and Sawzall the aluminum pieces off. With it removed the car had a better ride quality on these lovely bombed out roads of Massachusetts, but it did have more understeer. After the beam bending the car feels like it has 50%~60% of a RSB (if that makes sense) but doesn't suffer any loss of ride quality. I have noticed at one extreme corner of my local "test track" the car doesn't want to rotate like it did with the RSB. A flick of the steering wheel would help, but a big oak tree next to the road kills my motivation to try it.

If I can ever get a hold of some of the Superpro trailing arm bushings I will see how those go. With the bent beam and bushings Im hoping to get a RSB effect without the drawbacks or extra weight.

For now im never planning on going back to a RSB ever again.

 

I have never experienced lift-off oversteer with my RSB. Then again, I'm running some stiffer springs and struts as well as an LTB up front that dumb the effects of an RSB compared to a stock setup. I'm also a very smooth driver and tend not to jerk the wheel hard or lift abruptly (unless I'm screwing with my friends ).

Although I haven't noticed much if any of a decrease in ride quality, I haven't been paying much attention to the rear of the car recently.

 

In the big picture of all this, what you get after spending a good bit of time and money to do multiple suspension upgrades on this car is mediocre results. It will never be an IS300, etc. I wouldn't own this car anymore if it weren't for the engine - the best attribute of the vehicle.

I experimented with H&R, Maxspeed, Illuminas, FSTB on my GXE. Tires are 16/50/205's. I liked the 4x4 feeling for a while until I got sick of the body roll again. I only lost the back end a few times unintentionally, one in the rain. I haven't pushed it like my earlier cars b/c I know what it can('t) do and I am older now. Anyway, it's a compromised setup (multilink, macpherson, etc) so I'm still bitter about it.

 

Saying "multilink" would imply that the rear has multi-link suspension, which is most 4th gen owner's dreams. Make sure you say "multilink beam."

 

When I had my Tein Basic coilovers, I noticed a huge improvement in handling when I installed the RSB. The best way to describe it is the car just feels much more together. The rear actually feels like it is turning with you. I noticed the car's stance was flatter during cornering and the car really sticks to the ground.

I also read about past threads where people have said their rear end became unstable and unpredictable during high speed cornering. Let me just say that I've done my share of high speed cornering and I did not experience or notice any of that. Then I thought about it some more and maybe it's because I've got the 9.0J rears that keep the rear planted down quite a bit more than most max's with the 6.5" stockers, 7" or 8"s.

 

I'm sorry, did you say Progress springs stay flat?

I have my rear beam bent so I may be a tad swayed but it seems like you would just be trying to get back the grip you lost in the front. With firm springs in the front and firmer springs in the rear the car stays planted and turns-in very nicly. I can only give my experience but with 500lbs/in. springs in the rear, bent beam, and RSTB the rear stays planted on both sweapers and very composed over rough surfaces.

With the front rates staying unchanged (380lbs/in.) when I changed my rear springs from 325s to 500s that's when things really flattened out. I have better grip now with some loaner sawblades than I ever did with the S-Tech (let's not start a rant, I know the height hurt me) and 8.0inch wheels.

What's the overall goal with the setup? Nice driving feel and occasionally throwing it around on the mountain?

 

^ You talking to me? I got and installed the RSB a long time ago...

 

Yes. But I think he's made his decision by now...

(This is an old thread that was bumped for the sake of debate)

 

Everyone should trailbrake.....it's da bombz yO!!!11one!!


seriously, it's fun as hell, especially at high speeds

 

Continue on.

 

trailbraking is the driver's workaround for a compromised suspension setup. when I raced karts, my rookie year, I was braking DEEEP into the corners, just to make sure the lighter, faster guys couldn't take me going in. the problem with this, and with my setup, is that I'm a heavy guy, and my brakes practically didn't exsist. my dad and brother were actually afraid of riding my kart because of it. well, that and since i couldn't put the weight where i wanted it, resulted in me losing cornering speed at the exit and that's where everyone would get me. half the field could pass me at a corner exit. I converted my habits to a brake early scenario that they MIGHT get me at a corner entrance, but even the fastest guy in the field couldn't pass me leaving the corner.

An RSB might add unsprung weight, and it might result in snap oversteer, but proper driving habits + RSB = big advantage. I've only lost the rear-end once when i had close to 70k on the RE92s and it was snowing out, but with decent rubber and a steady hand, this is pretty close to the single most advantageous suspension mod that can be had for our cars. SFCs are commonly held as the competitor to the single best mod, but I'll leave that for a different thread

 

SFCs are the best single mod if you're looking for "overall" improvement because they improve how your car handles and rides over rough surfaces as well as how fast it can take a corner.

A RSB is the best single mod as far as cornering alone is concerned.

 

Id have to say bending the beam is far better than the RSB.

 

Gee, I always thought struts were the best single handling mod.

 

Good call. But that's not exactly something that's widely available and easily done AFAIK...

If it were, you're right, that'd be it.

 

Not if you take price into account, IMO...

 

I have another question about the RSB? How much does it reduce the ground clearance?

I want to reduce the body roll, but I am a snowboarder, so i need some decent clearance in the snow. Would any of you advise against the RSB because of this? Or do you think I am being and idiot even worrying about this?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

ps - i dont mean to thread jack. I would have started a new thread for this but since I am still a newbie, it wouldn't let me.

Thanks...

 

Don't worry. It won't affect you much. I go snowboarding every winter and I'm lowered almost 3 inches with no problems.

 

personally, I would rate tires the highest.....

think about stock autocross classes vs. street tire classes....