Diameter of Ball Joint Hole in LCA
08-23-2011, 02:37 PM
#42
sorry, i didn't have time to answer earlier. if your control arms sit parrallel to the ground (mildly lowered) or if the ball joint end is closer to the ground (near factory height) by doing this mod you will loose negative camber statically, but gain it dynamically (under compression). however, if you are extremely lowered (a-arms angled up) this mod would gain you negative camber statically and positive camber dynamically (not good) unless the mod puts you back below parrallel. parrallel and below, the first statement applies. either way, regardless of how lowered you are, the goal of this is to get your a-arms angled down to a near factory angle to retain the factory rollcenter. hopefully that made sense.
Last edited by jac121479; 08-23-2011 at 02:53 PM.
08-24-2011, 06:57 AM
#43
sorry, i didn't have time to answer earlier. if your control arms sit parrallel to the ground (mildly lowered) or if the ball joint end is closer to the ground (near factory height) by doing this mod you will loose negative camber statically, but gain it dynamically (under compression). however, if you are extremely lowered (a-arms angled up) this mod would gain you negative camber statically and positive camber dynamically (not good) unless the mod puts you back below parrallel. parrallel and below, the first statement applies. either way, regardless of how lowered you are, the goal of this is to get your a-arms angled down to a near factory angle to retain the factory rollcenter. hopefully that made sense.
Remember that when you lower your car you decrease the length from the top to bottom pivot. The goal here is to return the length of that imaginary line back to stock. If the top pivot is in the stock position, and the length of that imaginary line is the same as stock, AND the LCA is at the same angle as stock (which is will be because the LCA inboard mounting points are the same and the LCA is the same length), you will have stock static and dynamic camber.
So yes, if you angle your LCAs towards the ground as they were when the suspension was stock, you will lose some static camber due to the effect of dynamic camber, but the static camber would be equal to the static camber you would have if the vehicle was stock. What you gain here is more negative camber as the suspension compresses because the angle of the LCAs relative to ride height has changed.
08-24-2011, 07:59 AM
#44
Now that is some good info! Im glad you guys were able to put into words what what going on in my head....lol
One last question. What is the difference between doing this mod and finding a longer ball joint that will press into our control arms? Is it simply having the option of adjusting the length of the bolt?
One last question. What is the difference between doing this mod and finding a longer ball joint that will press into our control arms? Is it simply having the option of adjusting the length of the bolt?
Last edited by sergofast; 08-24-2011 at 08:40 AM.
08-24-2011, 03:14 PM
#45
if you can find another balljoint that's longer, fits our bore, and has the same tapered neck, please let us know. you could use some Howe Racing balljoints but you'd probably spend more money and you wouldn't be able to adjust length. i'd say this is the way to go for front rollcenter adjustment.
08-25-2011, 06:25 AM
#46
Now that is some good info! Im glad you guys were able to put into words what what going on in my head....lol
One last question. What is the difference between doing this mod and finding a longer ball joint that will press into our control arms? Is it simply having the option of adjusting the length of the bolt?
One last question. What is the difference between doing this mod and finding a longer ball joint that will press into our control arms? Is it simply having the option of adjusting the length of the bolt?
When you analyze suspension, you are concerned with where the pivots are at. If your ball joint simply has a longer body, then even though your LCAs are pointing down, the pivot point is in the same spot relative to the knuckle and the inboard mounting points. So if you draw a straight line from the inboard to outboard LCA pivot points, this is the line along which you would find the instant center (or virtual reaction point in the image below) and thus, roll center .
If all you do is angle the arm down without changing the pivot point, you have not changed your roll center, although you have returned the LCA to the stock position which will give you stock camber characteristics.
08-25-2011, 10:52 AM
#47
That all makes since, I was asking about the longer shaft balljoint because I was not sure if they made a balljoint that could be made to fit our cars that had the longer shaft.
Do you think that the grim and dirt from driving the car will effect the spherical bearing being by being exposed on say, a daily driver?
Do you think that the grim and dirt from driving the car will effect the spherical bearing being by being exposed on say, a daily driver?
08-26-2011, 08:03 AM
#48
They won't last as long, but yes, lots of people use spherical bearings and rod ends in their suspension. go take a look at some of the stuff offered for S and Z-chassis cars from places like SPL Parts and whatnot.
For a DD in a place where dirt and corrosion is an issue, then expect to replace the joints every 2 years or so. for a place like south TX where there's no salt, then they can go 5+ years without replacement.
For a DD in a place where dirt and corrosion is an issue, then expect to replace the joints every 2 years or so. for a place like south TX where there's no salt, then they can go 5+ years without replacement.
08-30-2011, 05:22 AM
#49
Also, I am using a 1.5 inch spacer now between the knuckle and LCA with a 5 inch bolt. I was having a bit more bump steer than I would have liked with the 1 inch spacer. There wasn't much I could do, however, because there was no way to adjust it out due to the position of the tie rod end mounting point on the knuckle. Now with the 1.5 inch spacer between the knuckle and LCA, and the 1/8 inch spacer used between the tie rod end and knuckle, which was done only for clearance, bump steer is much less pronounced. I did have to grind more from the end of the LCA. However, due to the thickness of the bushing, I feel any reduction in strength of the LCA is made up for by welding the bushing in.
Finally I wanted to mention that the nuts used on the tie rod ends and the knuckle to LCA are not normal nuts. In addition to having flanges and being grade eight steel, they have been deformed slightly to ensure they cannot back themselves off. I also used blue loctite in both locations. These precautions were taken because I did not have the ability to install a cotter pin to prevent the nuts from working themselves loose. I guess I could have drilled a small hole in the bolts, but this seemed like a better solution.
Last edited by ajm8127; 08-30-2011 at 07:22 AM.
08-30-2011, 04:17 PM
#50
Have you by chance done the math to see how much these changes raised your roll center?
I still like the idea of making some modifications at the top of the strut to add some static camber and caster as well but a move up there could also serve to lower the roll center as well (but maybe not as much as this mod raises it).
I guess I am just looking to start looking for real numbers to get a good idea of the exact changes we are making with these adjustments so we are all better served at the end of the day.
I still like the idea of making some modifications at the top of the strut to add some static camber and caster as well but a move up there could also serve to lower the roll center as well (but maybe not as much as this mod raises it).
I guess I am just looking to start looking for real numbers to get a good idea of the exact changes we are making with these adjustments so we are all better served at the end of the day.
08-30-2011, 06:26 PM
#52
No, I have not done the calculations mainly because I am too lazy to take the initial measurements. I do agree with you that moving the top mounting point will change the roll center. I had never made that observation myself. Maybe one day. I have class for the next 3.5 months three nights a week so I don't know if I'll ever take the measurements. I have an engine in a bunch of pieces and I really want to get it done before my break in mid December so most of my efforts will be focused on that now.
08-31-2011, 03:49 AM
#53
I will see if I can get some rough numbers at the least.
I know my talking about them so often may sound like a broken record but I am a firm believer that if you don't where you are starting and where you go to with each change its pretty hard to be able to make repeatable improvements.
In short... its all about results.
I know my talking about them so often may sound like a broken record but I am a firm believer that if you don't where you are starting and where you go to with each change its pretty hard to be able to make repeatable improvements.
In short... its all about results.
09-06-2011, 09:24 AM
#54
Please note... I purchased the spare set of parts to do this mod.
I suddenly do not have use of them and am willing to sell them shipped for what I have in them. If you want them get at me, can ship soon.
I suddenly do not have use of them and am willing to sell them shipped for what I have in them. If you want them get at me, can ship soon.
09-06-2011, 09:38 AM
#55
09-07-2011, 11:39 AM
#56
Nice...Im excited to do this mod to my car! Just ordered the other set of bearing holders. AJM, did you have to press this in just like ball joints or did it slip in and then weld to hold it?
09-07-2011, 11:58 AM
#57
If I were to do this again I would remove the LCA from the car completely. This would make it easier to weld. Also, I would have welded the bottom of the bushing to the bottom of the LCA along with the top of the bushing to the top of the LCA. Be carfeul you don't put too much heat into it. I welded it like I would a body panel; a little at a time. Too much heat might distort the part and make putting the spherical bearing in impossible.
Also, to make the 1.5 inch spacer fit, I had to grind away all of the turned down metal at the end of the control arm. This was to clear the brake discs. I haven't noticed any problem yet but it may be a good idea to reinforce that area with a couple of small gussets. The metal is fairly thick around the hole for the ball joint, but because I ground away all of the metal along the outside edge that reinforces the arm, it may be a good idea to add a little back. I think if you were able to connect the thick part of the bushing to the turned down edge of the control arm that would be sufficient. This is on the underside of the arm. Let me know if that makes any sense. Maybe I need to take a picture.
09-07-2011, 12:50 PM
#58
I did not need to press it in.
If I were to do this again I would remove the LCA from the car completely. This would make it easier to weld. Also, I would have welded the bottom of the bushing to the bottom of the LCA along with the top of the bushing to the top of the LCA. Be carfeul you don't put too much heat into it. I welded it like I would a body panel; a little at a time. Too much heat might distort the part and make putting the spherical bearing in impossible.
Also, to make the 1.5 inch spacer fit, I had to grind away all of the turned down metal at the end of the control arm. This was to clear the brake discs. I haven't noticed any problem yet but it may be a good idea to reinforce that area with a couple of small gussets. The metal is fairly thick around the hole for the ball joint, but because I ground away all of the metal along the outside edge that reinforces the arm, it may be a good idea to add a little back. I think if you were able to connect the thick part of the bushing to the turned down edge of the control arm that would be sufficient. This is on the underside of the arm. Let me know if that makes any sense. Maybe I need to take a picture.
If I were to do this again I would remove the LCA from the car completely. This would make it easier to weld. Also, I would have welded the bottom of the bushing to the bottom of the LCA along with the top of the bushing to the top of the LCA. Be carfeul you don't put too much heat into it. I welded it like I would a body panel; a little at a time. Too much heat might distort the part and make putting the spherical bearing in impossible.
Also, to make the 1.5 inch spacer fit, I had to grind away all of the turned down metal at the end of the control arm. This was to clear the brake discs. I haven't noticed any problem yet but it may be a good idea to reinforce that area with a couple of small gussets. The metal is fairly thick around the hole for the ball joint, but because I ground away all of the metal along the outside edge that reinforces the arm, it may be a good idea to add a little back. I think if you were able to connect the thick part of the bushing to the turned down edge of the control arm that would be sufficient. This is on the underside of the arm. Let me know if that makes any sense. Maybe I need to take a picture.
Where did you get your distorted bolts from? McMasters/Grainger? All I need now is the bearings and other hardware.
Last edited by sergofast; 09-07-2011 at 12:52 PM.
09-07-2011, 05:43 PM
#59
Im impressed... very impressed. Finally had a chance to read this whole thread. Question for you, you were discussing what size wheels this setup would fit under. Did you ever try your 16"s?
09-09-2011, 07:47 AM
#60
Not yet, but my winter tires are on the stock SE wheels. If I have to I will just decrease the spacer size to make the 16s fit.
09-09-2011, 07:55 AM
#61
A picture is good. but it makes since. I noticed in your other pictures you have the dust shields in place, would it be necessary to grind it down if the dust shields are gone? I took my shields off long ago.
Where did you get your distorted bolts from? McMasters/Grainger? All I need now is the bearings and other hardware.
Where did you get your distorted bolts from? McMasters/Grainger? All I need now is the bearings and other hardware.
The problem with clearance is between the LCA and the rotor. So dust shields or not, you will have to remove some material from the LCA. I did modify my dust shields, though. There is a small window in the shield and I just enlarged it by removing the piece of the shield on the bottom of the window.
All the raw steel cam from onlinemetals.com; this includes the tube for the bushings, the tube for the tie rods and the tube for the spacers. All of the hardware came from McMaster. The bearings came from bakerprecision.com, but if you Google nhbb ABWT10 , a number of suppliers come up. I would just compare prices and go from there.
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