Nees some help w/ custom VQ swap, cranks but won't start
08-09-2005, 10:28 AM
#81
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by deezo
Think of it this way, you are almost there. Keep hangin around here and these guys will get you on your way.
I personally was thinking the coils weren't getting any or enough voltage.
I personally was thinking the coils weren't getting any or enough voltage.
They're definately getting plenty of volts. The way they work is they get voltage all the time, to fire them off the ECU grounds the other side of the coil allowing juice to flow through the coil (and down to the plug). So, if they are getting juice but not firing it's because the ECU isn't making that all important ground connection.
The ECU decides to make that ground connection based on one main bit of information - the signal it gets from the rear crank sensor. If it senses the crank shaft is turning then it know's it's time to fire the coils and does so. If the rear crank sensor is removed or otherwise screwed up the ECU will not know it's time to fire and won't do so (like in my case). However, I've tested the rear crank sensor wiring harness and the sensor itself as well as the signal at the ECU that the ECU is looking for and found all to be just fine.
Next, I'm going to buy an analog multimeter and retest the rear crank sensor's signal at the ECU plug. With an analog meter I should be able to see the needle move back and forth while I turn the motor over slowly. That should prove without a doubt that the ECU is getting the crank sensor's signal.
The front cranks sensor is not critical to coil firing from what I can tell. The cam sensor is used mainly to tell the ECU what piston is up at what time for injector firing. The MAF and coolant temp sensor, 02 sensors and throttle position sensor aren't critical to coil firing either.
allen
08-09-2005, 04:15 PM
#82
Which power transistor are you using? IIRC that's the thing that strengthens the voltage coming from the ECU to the coils. Maybe it's faulty, or maybe you need to use the one from the 4th gen. Just an idea...
08-10-2005, 05:53 AM
#83
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by nismology
Which power transistor are you using? IIRC that's the thing that strengthens the voltage coming from the ECU to the coils. Maybe it's faulty, or maybe you need to use the one from the 4th gen. Just an idea...
I don't even know what a power transistor is, where's it mounted at?
Ok, bought an analog meter last night and tested the crank sensor's signal at the ECU. The needle pulsed back and forth while I slowly turned the motor over by hand. So, it would appear that all is in order there.
I also grounded pin 22 but the coils still aren't firing.
I may pull out all my wiring and redo everything. Something's just not right somewhere.
allen
08-10-2005, 07:01 AM
#84
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Originally Posted by nismology
Which power transistor are you using? IIRC that's the thing that strengthens the voltage coming from the ECU to the coils. Maybe it's faulty, or maybe you need to use the one from the 4th gen. Just an idea...
Did you go through the igntion signal diagnostic procedure in the FSM?
If you have no ecu outputs (ie. fuel and spark) then you must have missing or incorrect inputs. (assuming the ecu is ok) I know this sounds like an incredibly obvious statement, but I find a lot of people tend to look at the "wrong end of the computer" when troubleshooting.
It may have already been suggested, but if you know someone with a running VQ in their vehicle, you could start unplugging input sensors one at a time until you end up with a no-start condition with the same symptoms that you have.
Do this only after you are 100% confident with all your power and ground connections.
08-10-2005, 08:22 AM
#85
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by eng92
The power transistor and ignition coil are an integrated unit. Some people refer to them as coil packs.
Did you go through the igntion signal diagnostic procedure in the FSM?
If you have no ecu outputs (ie. fuel and spark) then you must have missing or incorrect inputs. (assuming the ecu is ok) I know this sounds like an incredibly obvious statement, but I find a lot of people tend to look at the "wrong end of the computer" when troubleshooting.
It may have already been suggested, but if you know someone with a running VQ in their vehicle, you could start unplugging input sensors one at a time until you end up with a no-start condition with the same symptoms that you have.
Do this only after you are 100% confident with all your power and ground connections.
Did you go through the igntion signal diagnostic procedure in the FSM?
If you have no ecu outputs (ie. fuel and spark) then you must have missing or incorrect inputs. (assuming the ecu is ok) I know this sounds like an incredibly obvious statement, but I find a lot of people tend to look at the "wrong end of the computer" when troubleshooting.
It may have already been suggested, but if you know someone with a running VQ in their vehicle, you could start unplugging input sensors one at a time until you end up with a no-start condition with the same symptoms that you have.
Do this only after you are 100% confident with all your power and ground connections.
If I can't come up w/ anything eventually I'll track down a Maxima and do as you suggested by simply unplugging stuff until I find some answers.
(I did try a different ECU BTW just to rule that out).
thanks for the tips,
allen
08-15-2005, 05:24 PM
#86
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Posts: 369
Ok, just completed the ignition signal diagnostic procedure. Everything tested out good. All 6 coil power wires have battery voltage and all 6 coil ground wires are grounded. My only question is on the 6 coil signal wires, the FSM says they should measure between 0.01V and 0.1V while plugged in and the key "on", I got right at .55 mV on all 6. Is that ok? Not sure how to convert mV to V exactly.
The condensor tested out perfectly within spec and I tested all 6 coils individually and they all measured about 1.3 milliohms (anything over 0 ohms is good, 0 ohms means the coil pack is bad).
Still no clues as to why these coils won't fire.
allen
The condensor tested out perfectly within spec and I tested all 6 coils individually and they all measured about 1.3 milliohms (anything over 0 ohms is good, 0 ohms means the coil pack is bad).
Still no clues as to why these coils won't fire.
allen
08-15-2005, 07:41 PM
#87
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Originally Posted by allen22
Ok, just completed the ignition signal diagnostic procedure. Everything tested out good. All 6 coil power wires have battery voltage and all 6 coil ground wires are grounded. My only question is on the 6 coil signal wires, the FSM says they should measure between 0.01V and 0.1V while plugged in and the key "on", I got right at .55 mV on all 6. Is that ok? Not sure how to convert mV to V exactly.
You want to be 10 - 100 mV
What kind of meter are you using that can measure down into the fractional mV range?
Originally Posted by allen22
The condensor tested out perfectly within spec and I tested all 6 coils individually and they all measured about 1.3 milliohms (anything over 0 ohms is good, 0 ohms means the coil pack is bad).
This may seem like an obvious question. Do you have power to ecu terminal 20 (start signal) when the ignition switch is in the start position?
08-16-2005, 06:08 AM
#88
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by eng92
.55 mV = 0.00055 V
You want to be 10 - 100 mV
What kind of meter are you using that can measure down into the fractional mV range?
Are you sure that is 1.3 milliohms (0.0013 ohms) you measured or 1.3 Megaohms? The resistance of your probes alone would be greater than 1.3 milliohms.
This may seem like an obvious question. Do you have power to ecu terminal 20 (start signal) when the ignition switch is in the start position?
You want to be 10 - 100 mV
What kind of meter are you using that can measure down into the fractional mV range?
Are you sure that is 1.3 milliohms (0.0013 ohms) you measured or 1.3 Megaohms? The resistance of your probes alone would be greater than 1.3 milliohms.
This may seem like an obvious question. Do you have power to ecu terminal 20 (start signal) when the ignition switch is in the start position?
Yes, terminal 20 is hooked up to my car's starter signal wire and does have power when the ignition switch is in start.
allen
08-16-2005, 10:52 AM
#89
Damn this wiring. I'm starting to get a taste of how much of a PITA it is. I've got the whole harness plugged in. Tonight I'm putting in the driveshaft, filling the diff, mounting the ECU and beginning the splicing.
08-16-2005, 11:37 AM
#90
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Broaner
Damn this wiring. I'm starting to get a taste of how much of a PITA it is. I've got the whole harness plugged in. Tonight I'm putting in the driveshaft, filling the diff, mounting the ECU and beginning the splicing.
allen
08-18-2005, 07:14 PM
#91
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
WhhhooooHoooooo, I've got spark! Finally!
Ok, finally built a front crank sensor mount that put the sensor in the right spot, plugged it in, hooked up the jumper cables cause my battery is shot, cranked her over and she fired! I'm so pumped, this crap sucked. I was certain that it didn't need that front crank sensor to fire but I was definately wrong. If I hadn't been lazy about making that mount I'd be way past this point a long time ago.
The race is definately on now, this was by no means my last hurdle but it was a big one. Next up will be coolant lines, finalizing my manifolds (LH hits the steering shaft), exhaust, intake piping and dash area wiring. I hope to actually get it started this weekend or early next week and let it idle for a while, if it will.
Thanks for everyone's help w/this project, you've all been very helpful w/ this problem.
P.S. I smelt gas too so the injectors are firing as well, lovely smell that was.
allen
Ok, finally built a front crank sensor mount that put the sensor in the right spot, plugged it in, hooked up the jumper cables cause my battery is shot, cranked her over and she fired! I'm so pumped, this crap sucked. I was certain that it didn't need that front crank sensor to fire but I was definately wrong. If I hadn't been lazy about making that mount I'd be way past this point a long time ago.
The race is definately on now, this was by no means my last hurdle but it was a big one. Next up will be coolant lines, finalizing my manifolds (LH hits the steering shaft), exhaust, intake piping and dash area wiring. I hope to actually get it started this weekend or early next week and let it idle for a while, if it will.
Thanks for everyone's help w/this project, you've all been very helpful w/ this problem.
P.S. I smelt gas too so the injectors are firing as well, lovely smell that was.
allen
08-19-2005, 12:25 PM
#95
congrats x10 dude. been with you on this for a long time, and its like seeing a child born lol. just a couple months of labor. now you gotta get its head all shaped right so it looks pretty for the pictures 
rofl 
rofl
08-20-2005, 06:56 PM
#96
Mine is so close to starting its rediculous. Other than not starting its ready to drive I'm p!ssed. I have spark and fuel. It just won't sustain itself without the starter. Sometimes it revs up a bit off the starter but then dies immediately. WTF is the deal? I'm thinking it could be crank sensors off a bit but I've been having a difficult time measure resistance through them.
Oh, BTW, to solve the drivers manifold/steering interferance I welded it up at that joint, removed the bolt and ground down the area that hit.
Oh, BTW, to solve the drivers manifold/steering interferance I welded it up at that joint, removed the bolt and ground down the area that hit.
08-22-2005, 07:54 AM
#97
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Broaner
Mine is so close to starting its rediculous. Other than not starting its ready to drive I'm p!ssed. I have spark and fuel. It just won't sustain itself without the starter. Sometimes it revs up a bit off the starter but then dies immediately. WTF is the deal? I'm thinking it could be crank sensors off a bit but I've been having a difficult time measure resistance through them.
Oh, BTW, to solve the drivers manifold/steering interferance I welded it up at that joint, removed the bolt and ground down the area that hit.
Oh, BTW, to solve the drivers manifold/steering interferance I welded it up at that joint, removed the bolt and ground down the area that hit.
I hope you don't have to take your steering column apart! I'm considering just making new manifolds, possibly going ahead and running a single turbo. These manifolds are just too problematic for me.
Did you get the bottom center manifold nut threaded all the way down? On the Z's head the center stud is to the front of the motor, on the Max head it's to the rear so the Z's manifold partially covers the stud making it very difficult to thread the nut down, maybe impossible to get it fully tight. I don't want the exhaust leaks that that would lead to.
allen
08-23-2005, 09:58 AM
#99
Originally Posted by 1FSTMAX
Do you have anymore pictures of your swap?
08-23-2005, 11:08 AM
#100
There are still two other point to pull the steering column apart. I'm not worried about it. I'll snap some pics of that.
I couldln't get that middle one down all the way either. At this point I don't really care. I just want to start it.
Last night I pulled the manifold to clear out the flooding. There was some gas but not excessive. I cranked it dry for a while to clear it all out. I checked everything. I pulled the plugs. The left bank was black with crap on it(Like fouled out). The right bank was a perfect brownish white. I put it back together. I tested voltage on everything. Everything reads 13.2 volts(trickle charger on battery). I pulled one coil at a time to test for spart. The right side sparks very consistantly on every crank. The left side doesn't spark consistantly. Like only every third or fourth crank. WTF? Then I went ahead and put it all back together for more cranking. This time the left side was getting hot int the exhaust and nothing was happening on the right. This is the point at which I gave up. Having no heat on the right exhaust makes me think there is no fuel since I know there is spark. But why is there no fuel on one side when both banks of injectors are getting full battery voltage. I checked pins 1,2,3,7,8 & 9 for good connection. Everything seems to be good. I don't know. I'm asking everyone I know and its not going so well. I've been trying to get my hands on a GST but that has been no good since I have no money to even rent one right now.
My buddy just possed a good question. Does the ECU case need to be mounted solidly to be grounded properly? For this whole wiring procedure the ECU has been loose where the passenger seat goes.
I couldln't get that middle one down all the way either. At this point I don't really care. I just want to start it.
Last night I pulled the manifold to clear out the flooding. There was some gas but not excessive. I cranked it dry for a while to clear it all out. I checked everything. I pulled the plugs. The left bank was black with crap on it(Like fouled out). The right bank was a perfect brownish white. I put it back together. I tested voltage on everything. Everything reads 13.2 volts(trickle charger on battery). I pulled one coil at a time to test for spart. The right side sparks very consistantly on every crank. The left side doesn't spark consistantly. Like only every third or fourth crank. WTF? Then I went ahead and put it all back together for more cranking. This time the left side was getting hot int the exhaust and nothing was happening on the right. This is the point at which I gave up. Having no heat on the right exhaust makes me think there is no fuel since I know there is spark. But why is there no fuel on one side when both banks of injectors are getting full battery voltage. I checked pins 1,2,3,7,8 & 9 for good connection. Everything seems to be good. I don't know. I'm asking everyone I know and its not going so well. I've been trying to get my hands on a GST but that has been no good since I have no money to even rent one right now.
My buddy just possed a good question. Does the ECU case need to be mounted solidly to be grounded properly? For this whole wiring procedure the ECU has been loose where the passenger seat goes.
08-24-2005, 07:04 AM
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Broaner
There are still two other point to pull the steering column apart. I'm not worried about it. I'll snap some pics of that.
I couldln't get that middle one down all the way either. At this point I don't really care. I just want to start it.
Last night I pulled the manifold to clear out the flooding. There was some gas but not excessive. I cranked it dry for a while to clear it all out. I checked everything. I pulled the plugs. The left bank was black with crap on it(Like fouled out). The right bank was a perfect brownish white. I put it back together. I tested voltage on everything. Everything reads 13.2 volts(trickle charger on battery). I pulled one coil at a time to test for spart. The right side sparks very consistantly on every crank. The left side doesn't spark consistantly. Like only every third or fourth crank. WTF? Then I went ahead and put it all back together for more cranking. This time the left side was getting hot int the exhaust and nothing was happening on the right. This is the point at which I gave up. Having no heat on the right exhaust makes me think there is no fuel since I know there is spark. But why is there no fuel on one side when both banks of injectors are getting full battery voltage. I checked pins 1,2,3,7,8 & 9 for good connection. Everything seems to be good. I don't know. I'm asking everyone I know and its not going so well. I've been trying to get my hands on a GST but that has been no good since I have no money to even rent one right now.
My buddy just possed a good question. Does the ECU case need to be mounted solidly to be grounded properly? For this whole wiring procedure the ECU has been loose where the passenger seat goes.
I couldln't get that middle one down all the way either. At this point I don't really care. I just want to start it.
Last night I pulled the manifold to clear out the flooding. There was some gas but not excessive. I cranked it dry for a while to clear it all out. I checked everything. I pulled the plugs. The left bank was black with crap on it(Like fouled out). The right bank was a perfect brownish white. I put it back together. I tested voltage on everything. Everything reads 13.2 volts(trickle charger on battery). I pulled one coil at a time to test for spart. The right side sparks very consistantly on every crank. The left side doesn't spark consistantly. Like only every third or fourth crank. WTF? Then I went ahead and put it all back together for more cranking. This time the left side was getting hot int the exhaust and nothing was happening on the right. This is the point at which I gave up. Having no heat on the right exhaust makes me think there is no fuel since I know there is spark. But why is there no fuel on one side when both banks of injectors are getting full battery voltage. I checked pins 1,2,3,7,8 & 9 for good connection. Everything seems to be good. I don't know. I'm asking everyone I know and its not going so well. I've been trying to get my hands on a GST but that has been no good since I have no money to even rent one right now.
My buddy just possed a good question. Does the ECU case need to be mounted solidly to be grounded properly? For this whole wiring procedure the ECU has been loose where the passenger seat goes.
What did you do for a front driveshaft yoke? Did you buy a Z driveshaft and cut it off?
allen
08-25-2005, 01:40 PM
#103
I didn't touch the coils. I just ran a switch on the power for the ignition. Both sides are powered by the same big @ss wire. I don't have my notes here so I'm not sure which pin that was.
Here are some pics of the progress.
Here are some pics of the progress.
08-26-2005, 08:35 AM
#105
Its actually perfect for me(I'm 6'1"). The stock 240 shifter was too far forward. This works out perfectly. It allows me to sit in the optimal position which also helps move the weight back.
This d@mn thing is really starting to p!ss me off. Last night the starter went out. The few cranks I got in after powering the rear crank sensor didn't seem to change anything.
This d@mn thing is really starting to p!ss me off. Last night the starter went out. The few cranks I got in after powering the rear crank sensor didn't seem to change anything.
09-05-2005, 03:01 PM
#106
Update, its alive. I started it up last night. I promptly dropped it off the jackstands and drove it for a couple hundred feet. The @ss kicks out so easily with the J30 VLSD. First gear is gone in a heartbeat. Redline in first is right around 30MPH. Second gets me to something honda'ish for redline in second. Third is like mid 60's. First didn't hold for **** on the stock 240 tires. Second didn't either and some of third didn't like traction either. I promptly pulled it back in the garage and now I need to tidy everything up. Like get some mufflers.
09-05-2005, 03:09 PM
#107
Originally Posted by Broaner
Update, its alive. I started it up last night. I promptly dropped it off the jackstands and drove it for a couple hundred feet. The @ss kicks out so easily with the J30 VLSD. First gear is gone in a heartbeat. Redline in first is right around 30MPH. Second gets me to something honda'ish for redline in second. Third is like mid 60's. First didn't hold for **** on the stock 240 tires. Second didn't either and some of third didn't like traction either. I promptly pulled it back in the garage and now I need to tidy everything up. Like get some mufflers.
09-06-2005, 06:36 AM
#110
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Originally Posted by Broaner
Update, its alive. I started it up last night. I promptly dropped it off the jackstands and drove it for a couple hundred feet. The @ss kicks out so easily with the J30 VLSD. First gear is gone in a heartbeat. Redline in first is right around 30MPH. Second gets me to something honda'ish for redline in second. Third is like mid 60's. First didn't hold for **** on the stock 240 tires. Second didn't either and some of third didn't like traction either. I promptly pulled it back in the garage and now I need to tidy everything up. Like get some mufflers.
09-06-2005, 11:06 AM
#111
My butt dyno was very skewed because my brain was being turned to mush by the F1'ish exhaust volume. Everyone keeps asking me how the shifter was, how were the coilovers, etc... I really have no idea. I was just in pure bliss. One of the wheels could have fallen off for all I know. I can say though that the 195's that come on the s13 had no chance of holding traction through second even with the LSD. Once I get some taller and wider tires on there in the spring I know this car will be good for high 13's NA. With 9lbs on the blower; watch out. 12 seconds here I come. Then next winter when I hope to do a built VQ hybrid similar to Mardi's I hope for 11's. Keep in mind this car is fully stripped. Before I pulled the KA it weighed 2200lbs. I did a bit more weight reduction during the swap but its tough to say whether or not the VQ/6MT combo is lighter than the KA/5MT. With the KA in there I could easily beat my buddies fairly modded 318. He runs 15.7. So it was easily a 15.4 second car even with the messed up clutch. Add 80HP&TQ to that and the gearing of a 6MT. You get the picture.
Oh, and me getting it started is all due to Allen. He gave me some great advice about the rear crank sensor. The moment I did what he said, it fired over. Thanks a bunch again man.
Oh, and me getting it started is all due to Allen. He gave me some great advice about the rear crank sensor. The moment I did what he said, it fired over. Thanks a bunch again man.
09-06-2005, 11:32 AM
#112
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
No problem, I'm glad I could help you out.
I take it the throw out bearing spacer is doing it's job then? Good to hear, I've been worried about that.
Hopefully I'll have mine on the ground soon, working on the driveshaft this week.
allen
I take it the throw out bearing spacer is doing it's job then? Good to hear, I've been worried about that.
Hopefully I'll have mine on the ground soon, working on the driveshaft this week.
allen
09-06-2005, 12:51 PM
#114
Originally Posted by TILLEYS99
Just wait till you guys see what im working on.....
90 pathfinder 4X4 (2wd soon)
2003 G35 motor
2002 350z trans
boosted and body dropped.
90 pathfinder 4X4 (2wd soon)
2003 G35 motor
2002 350z trans
boosted and body dropped.
Why don't you finish up your damn turbo car?
09-06-2005, 02:24 PM
#115
Originally Posted by TILLEYS99
Just wait till you guys see what im working on.....
90 pathfinder 4X4 (2wd soon)
2003 G35 motor
2002 350z trans
boosted and body dropped.
90 pathfinder 4X4 (2wd soon)
2003 G35 motor
2002 350z trans
boosted and body dropped.
bodydropped as well?
I know you got some hardbodies sitting around you should let me get one from you.
09-06-2005, 05:39 PM
#116
dang man.. Congrats! I bet that thing is ffuuuunnn....
Just out of curiosity, how much did it cost you total for this whole ordeal??
My buddy has a 240 shell that we want to do something with...
Just out of curiosity, how much did it cost you total for this whole ordeal??
My buddy has a 240 shell that we want to do something with...
09-07-2005, 08:55 AM
#117
All told I've spent $6K so far on this new project. The swap itself cost me like $1300 because I already had everything. The rest of that $6K went to coilovers, VLSD, V1 and accessories. The only things I had to buy for the swap was a tranny($875), driveshaft($200), 4 hockey pucks($4), TO bearing spacer($80), raw metal for the motor mounts($30), lower oil pan($80), Starter($75). Now if you don't have a donor maxima things will get very expensive very quickly. Not so much the motor but the wiring harness. We all know VQ's can be had dirt cheap; like $500 for a good motor. But a harness is going to be almost as much.
09-07-2005, 11:54 PM
#118
Originally Posted by Broaner
All told I've spent $6K so far on this new project. The swap itself cost me like $1300 because I already had everything. The rest of that $6K went to coilovers, VLSD, V1 and accessories. The only things I had to buy for the swap was a tranny($875), driveshaft($200), 4 hockey pucks($4), TO bearing spacer($80), raw metal for the motor mounts($30), lower oil pan($80), Starter($75). Now if you don't have a donor maxima things will get very expensive very quickly. Not so much the motor but the wiring harness. We all know VQ's can be had dirt cheap; like $500 for a good motor. But a harness is going to be almost as much.
Were the hockey pucks for motor mounts? Cool that you got the car running. Congrats.