How much timing advance on a 3.0
04-10-2006, 04:38 PM
#1
How much timing advance on a 3.0
Reading up on Ignition timing. I understand what it is and how it works, trying to get more knowlege on it. How much timing (if any)has anyone advanced on the 3.0 engine?
I believe 5.5th gen timing is 15 degrees stock . . people have it advanced to 17. Not sure how much power they gain from it, but I believe its a decent amount.
4th Gen I believe timing is 10degrees. I thought I have heard that JWT (maybe technosquare) advance timing some when re-working the ecu's for us 4th gens.
Is it really worth it to advance timing on the 3.0 engine? I know the 5.5gens are more friendly towards this.
Thanks.
I believe 5.5th gen timing is 15 degrees stock . . people have it advanced to 17. Not sure how much power they gain from it, but I believe its a decent amount.
4th Gen I believe timing is 10degrees. I thought I have heard that JWT (maybe technosquare) advance timing some when re-working the ecu's for us 4th gens.
Is it really worth it to advance timing on the 3.0 engine? I know the 5.5gens are more friendly towards this.
Thanks.
04-10-2006, 04:49 PM
#2
04-10-2006, 05:01 PM
#3
04-10-2006, 05:38 PM
#5
Its 15deg. idle. I checked it on the Auterra. Stock goes up to 22 or 24 at WOT. The only way to really advance timing is through larger injectors or increasing the fuel pressure. Which at that time you would need to lean out the fuel to gain ignition timing.
04-10-2006, 05:57 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by speed racer
Its 15deg. idle. I checked it on the Auterra. Stock goes up to 22 or 24 at WOT. The only way to really advance timing is through larger injectors or increasing the fuel pressure. Which at that time you would need to lean out the fuel to gain ignition timing.
Larger injectors and fuel pressure have nothing to do with ignition timing.
MDeezy- Ignition timing is not just a signal number. You look at it as a curve that follows rpm and throttle position. Base timing can be looked at as a signal number but that doesn't tell you a whole lot about the timing advance though the rpm range.
04-10-2006, 06:13 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
Larger injectors and fuel pressure have nothing to do with ignition timing.
04-10-2006, 07:25 PM
#9
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
MDeezy- Ignition timing is not just a signal number. You look at it as a curve that follows rpm and throttle position. Base timing can be looked at as a signal number but that doesn't tell you a whole lot about the timing advance though the rpm range.
I'm understanding it more.
Seeing this graph Nmex provided a link to, I see how timing fluxuates alot over the rpms.
now forgivemy next question but, Wouldnt it be advantageous for when reaching the higher rpms to have a lowere degree? Or is the part of the flaw of 4th gen ecu's timing. Or does the Intake manifold play a role in this?
04-10-2006, 07:33 PM
#10
Originally Posted by 96sleeper
I though it was shown that when coupled with a safc or similar, the timing can be advanced by removing fuel when using larger injectors or more FP.
04-12-2006, 11:54 AM
#13
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
IB4SR20vsI30tfaceoff O_O
04-12-2006, 05:23 PM
#14
Originally Posted by nismology
IB4SR20vsI30tfaceoff O_O
04-12-2006, 05:47 PM
#15
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all I think this guy was originally asking was how much IG timing can be advanced over stock till the 3.0 knocks in say a good compression, clean engine with good, clean new spark plugs and saying all conditions the same ie. near sea level, say 72 degrees or 70 ambient temp...and gas quality/grade/octane as well being the same say 91 or 93 premium...
now you see how all these factors can play a role in how much one person can run but another can't without knocking?
but I understand what he might be asking, how much has someone here advanced the IG timing on a 3.0L before they had to start pulling some regardless of outside factors...this would probably be best answered by someone who tuned this on the dyno using a SMT6 (I think there is only one or two people on the boards who have done this, or even the emange ultimate which only one person thus far has been able to advance timing until Greddy releases the full version update to all consumers) or even someone with the J&S ultra safeguard and saw it light up at a certain timing that they added via the methods I listed above...but once again there are very few people who are running that as well...
looking back at some of my old datalogging and some old threads on here, the stock timing levels out around anywhere from 23 to 25 degrees from about 5200 to redline on the 4th gen's...and the TS and JWT ecu's bump them up anywhere from 27 to 30 in that same range...it looks as though the JWT uses slightly more timing advance and a slightly more lean AFR up top as well than the TS...however, this has been proven with little to no more gain over the TS in back to back dynoes...can't remember the thread where I saw the comparison though...so it seems that most 3.0's can't gain anymore power than with around 27-30 degrees of IG advance near redline given that you are running the lean afr's the TS and JWT ecu's give you up top though...of course I could be wrong though...I do know that with the 3.5L's superior head design, you can run much more timing advance to gain even more NA power...but of course all of this conversation is useless if you are going FI...
now you see how all these factors can play a role in how much one person can run but another can't without knocking?
but I understand what he might be asking, how much has someone here advanced the IG timing on a 3.0L before they had to start pulling some regardless of outside factors...this would probably be best answered by someone who tuned this on the dyno using a SMT6 (I think there is only one or two people on the boards who have done this, or even the emange ultimate which only one person thus far has been able to advance timing until Greddy releases the full version update to all consumers) or even someone with the J&S ultra safeguard and saw it light up at a certain timing that they added via the methods I listed above...but once again there are very few people who are running that as well...
looking back at some of my old datalogging and some old threads on here, the stock timing levels out around anywhere from 23 to 25 degrees from about 5200 to redline on the 4th gen's...and the TS and JWT ecu's bump them up anywhere from 27 to 30 in that same range...it looks as though the JWT uses slightly more timing advance and a slightly more lean AFR up top as well than the TS...however, this has been proven with little to no more gain over the TS in back to back dynoes...can't remember the thread where I saw the comparison though...so it seems that most 3.0's can't gain anymore power than with around 27-30 degrees of IG advance near redline given that you are running the lean afr's the TS and JWT ecu's give you up top though...of course I could be wrong though...I do know that with the 3.5L's superior head design, you can run much more timing advance to gain even more NA power...but of course all of this conversation is useless if you are going FI...
04-13-2006, 06:57 AM
#16
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
....and the TS and JWT ecu's bump them up anywhere from 27 to 30 in that same range...it looks as though the JWT uses slightly more timing advance and a slightly more lean AFR up top as well than the TS...however, this has been proven with little to no more gain over the TS in back to back dynoes...can't remember the thread where I saw the comparison though...so it seems that most 3.0's can't gain anymore power than with around 27-30 degrees of IG advance near redline given that you are running the lean afr's the TS and JWT ecu's give you up top though...
04-13-2006, 08:03 AM
#17
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yeah but with gas as expensive as it is right now, not many people on here would be able to afford 100 octane or a bottle of octane booster...although you do have the nifty ability with the EU to have easy dual map switching. I am more wondering what timing advance you can run on 91...as some guys have already reporting knocking with the JWT on really hot days, but that could have been numerous factors coming into play rather than just hot ambient temp leading to elevated temp intake charges which only added to it...including JWT's notoriously lean AFR up top...
04-13-2006, 08:16 AM
#18
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
yeah but with gas as expensive as it is right now, not many people on here would be able to afford 100 octane or a bottle of octane booster...although you do have the nifty ability with the EU to have easy dual map switching. I am more wondering what timing advance you can run on 91...as some guys have already reporting knocking with the JWT on really hot days, but that could have been numerous factors coming into play rather than just hot ambient temp leading to elevated temp intake charges which only added to it...including JWT's notoriously lean AFR up top...
Doing these things I suspect there is still some room for improvement over the JWT/TS solution, even on 91 octane.
04-13-2006, 08:25 AM
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sounds like a good strategy overall...I would definitely agree, IG timing appears to have a much more significant effect on power than the AFR does on the 3.0L's...there certainly is more room for improvement over the TS and JWT ecu's...they program conservatively, I think they were just putting room in there for people who run crappy gas, in hot climates...as a safety margin...but certainly, I would love to see how much timing you can squeeze out on regular premium grade...and how much power you gain as a result...
04-13-2006, 01:10 PM
#20
I've got to ask... Has anyone used the JWT or TS ECU mod with use of regular 87 Octane gas? "I hear flames in my future" . I run regular and have no issues (not trying to start another thread debate!!); I'm just wondering if the use of a modified ECU with the MEVI I purchased will exceed/outdo the knock sensor's ability to run as well as it has for 4 years of everyday driving in FL. Please excuse this question if it seems newbieish, but I never have been able to find any threads for anyone who has tried and what results they got...even though I recognize that MEVI's (and possible ECU upgrades) are best left to premium grade fuel use. Could ECU be "modded" ala JWT without timing increase (increase RPM limit/ etc) that would retain stock knock sensor abilities to run regular? OK, I guess I've stepped out there far enough...be kind, guys, please! 
04-13-2006, 01:21 PM
#21
It would not be worth it at all since I know JWT would still charge the ridiculous price and then if you wanted to change it to their normal program they would stil charge you more to reprogram it.
Spend the extra $.20 and get premium. You get better gas mileage and performance anyway. Especially if you use JWT or EU to advance ignition timing.
Spend the extra $.20 and get premium. You get better gas mileage and performance anyway. Especially if you use JWT or EU to advance ignition timing.
04-13-2006, 08:31 PM
#22
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
looking back at some of my old datalogging and some old threads on here, the stock timing levels out around anywhere from 23 to 25 degrees from about 5200 to redline on the 4th gen's...and the TS and JWT ecu's bump them up anywhere from 27 to 30 in that same range...it looks as though the JWT uses slightly more timing advance and a slightly more lean AFR up top as well than the TS...however, this has been proven with little to no more gain over the TS in back to back dynoes...can't remember the thread where I saw the comparison though...so it seems that most 3.0's can't gain anymore power than with around 27-30 degrees of IG advance near redline given that you are running the lean afr's the TS and JWT ecu's give you up top though...of course I could be wrong though...I do know that with the 3.5L's superior head design, you can run much more timing advance to gain even more NA power...but of course all of this conversation is useless if you are going FI...
Excellent reading on the topic found here: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254868
04-13-2006, 09:31 PM
#23
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I was referring to the VQ35's heads redesigned cooling passages which allow the head to remain cooler...which allows for leaner AFR's, in addition, the head design certainly does allow more IG timing than that of the 3.0L heads...ask any guys on here that have experience with it...
The quench areas of the 35 heads are far superior to those of the 30. The better quench area distils detonation and thus allows you to run more timing advance...
The quench areas of the 35 heads are far superior to those of the 30. The better quench area distils detonation and thus allows you to run more timing advance...
04-13-2006, 10:02 PM
#24
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
all I think this guy was originally asking was how much IG timing can be advanced over stock till the 3.0 knocks in say a good compression, clean engine with good, clean new spark plugs and saying all conditions the same ie. near sea level, say 72 degrees or 70 ambient temp...and gas quality/grade/octane as well being the same say 91 or 93 premium...
now you see how all these factors can play a role in how much one person can run but another can't without knocking?
but I understand what he might be asking, how much has someone here advanced the IG timing on a 3.0L before they had to start pulling some regardless of outside factors...this would probably be best answered by someone who tuned this on the dyno using a SMT6 (I think there is only one or two people on the boards who have done this, or even the emange ultimate which only one person thus far has been able to advance timing until Greddy releases the full version update to all consumers) or even someone with the J&S ultra safeguard and saw it light up at a certain timing that they added via the methods I listed above...but once again there are very few people who are running that as well...
looking back at some of my old datalogging and some old threads on here, the stock timing levels out around anywhere from 23 to 25 degrees from about 5200 to redline on the 4th gen's...and the TS and JWT ecu's bump them up anywhere from 27 to 30 in that same range...it looks as though the JWT uses slightly more timing advance and a slightly more lean AFR up top as well than the TS...however, this has been proven with little to no more gain over the TS in back to back dynoes...can't remember the thread where I saw the comparison though...so it seems that most 3.0's can't gain anymore power than with around 27-30 degrees of IG advance near redline given that you are running the lean afr's the TS and JWT ecu's give you up top though...of course I could be wrong though...I do know that with the 3.5L's superior head design, you can run much more timing advance to gain even more NA power...but of course all of this conversation is useless if you are going FI...
now you see how all these factors can play a role in how much one person can run but another can't without knocking?
but I understand what he might be asking, how much has someone here advanced the IG timing on a 3.0L before they had to start pulling some regardless of outside factors...this would probably be best answered by someone who tuned this on the dyno using a SMT6 (I think there is only one or two people on the boards who have done this, or even the emange ultimate which only one person thus far has been able to advance timing until Greddy releases the full version update to all consumers) or even someone with the J&S ultra safeguard and saw it light up at a certain timing that they added via the methods I listed above...but once again there are very few people who are running that as well...
looking back at some of my old datalogging and some old threads on here, the stock timing levels out around anywhere from 23 to 25 degrees from about 5200 to redline on the 4th gen's...and the TS and JWT ecu's bump them up anywhere from 27 to 30 in that same range...it looks as though the JWT uses slightly more timing advance and a slightly more lean AFR up top as well than the TS...however, this has been proven with little to no more gain over the TS in back to back dynoes...can't remember the thread where I saw the comparison though...so it seems that most 3.0's can't gain anymore power than with around 27-30 degrees of IG advance near redline given that you are running the lean afr's the TS and JWT ecu's give you up top though...of course I could be wrong though...I do know that with the 3.5L's superior head design, you can run much more timing advance to gain even more NA power...but of course all of this conversation is useless if you are going FI...
From my dyno experiments I have found that it's better to bump timing advance than it is to run a 13~13.5 A/F. Timing made alot more gains than A/F tuning, however I had a pretty decent A/F to begin with. When I get the EU and a wideband Im going to push the limits with the A/F, but for this season im going to leave stock A/F maps.
Also I NEVER reached a point at where I stopped making power with timing advance. The SMT could only go so far then the ECU would start throwing a cam sensor code. I wasn't able to eclipse the timing bell curve. This is why I never 100% recomended the SMT-6, my beat up 173K mile VQ30 running 93 octane laughed at the SMT's limit on timing advance. With the EU, depending on conditions and fuel octane it's concievable my setup can take 10~13 degrees of timing advance at high RPMs and still make power. Your tuning results my vary.
04-13-2006, 10:18 PM
#25
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
I was referring to the VQ35's heads redesigned cooling passages which allow the head to remain cooler...which allows for leaner AFR's, in addition, the head design certainly does allow more IG timing than that of the 3.0L heads...ask any guys on here that have experience with it...
The quench areas of the 35 heads are far superior to those of the 30. The better quench area distils detonation and thus allows you to run more timing advance...
The quench areas of the 35 heads are far superior to those of the 30. The better quench area distils detonation and thus allows you to run more timing advance...
No one on this forum has yet to find this bell curve limit and as such the superior VQ35 heads resistance to detonation is almost a moot point. ENG92 has comparison runs of VQ30 and VQ35 stock ECU timing and they are almost the same. The VQ35 heads get there power gain from other factors, not timing advance.
04-13-2006, 10:29 PM
#26
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98se...you nailed my point....that is exactly what I was saying...
the VQ35 benefits more from AFR tuning since it is so often put way out of whack with headers and the like...which is why they see so much gain from tuning their AFR....but with the VQ35 heads and its inherent resistance to detonation, you can conceivably run a good deal more timing advance than we can on our 3.0's...I am sure in socal where I reside, I would easily find my limit to detonation relatively quick since we only have 91 out here and notoriously hot weather...which is exactly why there are so many factors which would determine why others in colder climates and that have access to higher octanes on a regular basis can get away with running higher amounts of timing advance...
but one thing is for sure, what the engineers have to say about the better design of the VQ35 heads are not lying, as I personally know some 5.5 gens that have TS push way more timing without detonation than they will even consider on a VQ30...when I last spoke to TS, they even mentioned their experiences with 350z's and their ability to run a good deal of IG timing advance due mostly in part to why they called heads which promote much smoother, even, and slower flame propagation across the combustion chamers mostly due to cleverly designed heads...
the VQ35 benefits more from AFR tuning since it is so often put way out of whack with headers and the like...which is why they see so much gain from tuning their AFR....but with the VQ35 heads and its inherent resistance to detonation, you can conceivably run a good deal more timing advance than we can on our 3.0's...I am sure in socal where I reside, I would easily find my limit to detonation relatively quick since we only have 91 out here and notoriously hot weather...which is exactly why there are so many factors which would determine why others in colder climates and that have access to higher octanes on a regular basis can get away with running higher amounts of timing advance...
but one thing is for sure, what the engineers have to say about the better design of the VQ35 heads are not lying, as I personally know some 5.5 gens that have TS push way more timing without detonation than they will even consider on a VQ30...when I last spoke to TS, they even mentioned their experiences with 350z's and their ability to run a good deal of IG timing advance due mostly in part to why they called heads which promote much smoother, even, and slower flame propagation across the combustion chamers mostly due to cleverly designed heads...
04-13-2006, 11:45 PM
#27
Originally Posted by 98SEBlackMax
Also I NEVER reached a point at where I stopped making power with timing advance. The SMT could only go so far then the ECU would start throwing a cam sensor code. I wasn't able to eclipse the timing bell curve.
04-14-2006, 01:00 AM
#28
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makes me wish I had the EU also...I only have the blue...oh well...makes me wonder that if it's only the software that can read the cam signal, why couldn't the blue's software be altered to read that as well...
dandy, you have the highest NA dyno so far without cams and any internal work right? but that was with the JWT ecu which is about +5 degrees advance up top...how much are you planning on adding on top of that with the EU...? also what AFR are you going to tune in...13?
dandy, you have the highest NA dyno so far without cams and any internal work right? but that was with the JWT ecu which is about +5 degrees advance up top...how much are you planning on adding on top of that with the EU...? also what AFR are you going to tune in...13?
04-14-2006, 01:25 AM
#29
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
dandy, you have the highest NA dyno so far without cams and any internal work right? but that was with the JWT ecu which is about +5 degrees advance up top...how much are you planning on adding on top of that with the EU...? also what AFR are you going to tune in...13?
Just FYI, as far as power numbers go, in addition to full tuning with the EU, I'm doing a few things that I never got to finish last year. I believe I can get my SAE numbers into the 230-240whp range and my power peak past 7000 rpms (and still without aftermarket cams or flywheel).
But we'll see.... stay tuned.
04-14-2006, 08:33 AM
#30
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wow....those are some steep #'s...but I am sure you can do it!
and to think that not even a year ago, people would have flamed and lauged at you for talking about getting #'s over 210whp with no cams, internal work, or flywheel...
what does your power peak @ right now? you want it to peak @ 7000 without cams and just tuning? I would think it would peak before (say 6500 or something) but hold or slightly decrease to 7K...but I would imagine with cams, I wouldn't put it past our beloved vq's to push power all the way to 7500 provided you can upgraded valve springs so you don't float on the way there...as well as a good tune up there...
on another note, does anyone know if say the jwt cams for example or the vq35 cams push power peak past (say that four times fast) our stock redlines? or to put it another way, has anyone found where our heads crap out and we can't cram anymore air in up top (anyone with cams chime in) and if it did at a certain rpm, was it because of poor tune up there?
and to think that not even a year ago, people would have flamed and lauged at you for talking about getting #'s over 210whp with no cams, internal work, or flywheel...
what does your power peak @ right now? you want it to peak @ 7000 without cams and just tuning? I would think it would peak before (say 6500 or something) but hold or slightly decrease to 7K...but I would imagine with cams, I wouldn't put it past our beloved vq's to push power all the way to 7500 provided you can upgraded valve springs so you don't float on the way there...as well as a good tune up there...
on another note, does anyone know if say the jwt cams for example or the vq35 cams push power peak past (say that four times fast) our stock redlines? or to put it another way, has anyone found where our heads crap out and we can't cram anymore air in up top (anyone with cams chime in) and if it did at a certain rpm, was it because of poor tune up there?
04-14-2006, 11:52 AM
#31
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
wow....those are some steep #'s...but I am sure you can do it!
and to think that not even a year ago, people would have flamed and lauged at you for talking about getting #'s over 210whp with no cams, internal work, or flywheel...
what does your power peak @ right now? you want it to peak @ 7000 without cams and just tuning? I would think it would peak before (say 6500 or something) but hold or slightly decrease to 7K...but I would imagine with cams, I wouldn't put it past our beloved vq's to push power all the way to 7500 provided you can upgraded valve springs so you don't float on the way there...as well as a good tune up there...
and to think that not even a year ago, people would have flamed and lauged at you for talking about getting #'s over 210whp with no cams, internal work, or flywheel...
what does your power peak @ right now? you want it to peak @ 7000 without cams and just tuning? I would think it would peak before (say 6500 or something) but hold or slightly decrease to 7K...but I would imagine with cams, I wouldn't put it past our beloved vq's to push power all the way to 7500 provided you can upgraded valve springs so you don't float on the way there...as well as a good tune up there...
[img]http://members.porchlight.ca/dvrditar/Oct%207-05%20dyno%20crop.jpg[img]
04-14-2006, 03:30 PM
#32
Originally Posted by DandyMax
Power peak last year was ~6660. I want it to peak higher than 7000, but I'd take 7000. Without cams I don't know yet how far I can push it but I have a few things in mind I'm going to try. There's more to it than tuning. As I said, I didn't get finished last year with what I wanted to do before putting the car away for the winter. Here's last year's dyno again. Note that it's SAE #'s not uncorrected #'s.
I want to overlap mine and try to get an idea where my peak power is. Im still making power when I hit the 6600 redline.
Edit: I have a 6400 rpm redline
04-14-2006, 10:17 PM
#33
Joe I posted the links to the run files on my original thread in the dyno forum. Here's the post:
http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.ph...46&postcount=9
And can you email me your most recent dynos also? I remember seeing it last year in the dyno forum, but it only went to 6400 - how are you getting a 6600 redline? - and I don't think I got the run files. Please send them to DandyMax @ auracom. com (no spaces).
Thx
http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.ph...46&postcount=9
And can you email me your most recent dynos also? I remember seeing it last year in the dyno forum, but it only went to 6400 - how are you getting a 6600 redline? - and I don't think I got the run files. Please send them to DandyMax @ auracom. com (no spaces).
Thx
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