grey99max

iTrader: (12)

But you could do the Clutch_ON mod on the dyno - the first one to do that. That's what I was laying out. Pretty dramatic stuff, eh?

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

I could, but I don't plan on dynoing until the spring. I have no tuning equipment nor a desire to go during the winter. It'll also be cheaper for me to go with LPAC (Penn State's car club) when they go a group thing this spring.

pmohr

iTrader: (26)

Think I've figured out 4th gear. Band application chart shows overrunning clutch in 1st through 3rd but not OD. Most likely that solenoid is always engaged in manual low lever position. I don't have a 4 gang or I'd try it, but cut power to the pink/blue at the TCU or brown/yellow at the trans when trying 4th gear.

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

What are those wires for? I can't try it out right now but I will be messing with this maybe at the track this weekend.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Wow -kudos to you if you're right. I can't test it - we're still covered in frozen sleet and slow. The only way I can go fast is by sliding down a long hill..

That wire is for the overrun clutch, isn't it? I don't have a FSM here, but it would be easy enough to snip the brown/yellow wire, put male/female terminal connectors on both ends, disconnect the wire, and drive the car. Reconnect it when finished. I'm sure it passes through the same wiring harness as the Solenoid A and B wires and the torque converter clutch wire. Easy enough to find.... Let's hope you're right.

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

If that's the case, I think this is how I'm going to wire it up: since I'd only need to disconnect the overrun clutch wire to use 4th gear, and the switches are DPDT, I'll just have 1 through 4 wired exactly as I do now, only have wires for the overrun taking up the second "pole" on the 4th gear switch (but have it so that pole is connected with the switch NOT pushed in, rather than having a connection as the switch IS pushed in like 1 through 4 are currently to activate their respective solenoids), which should simultaneously disconnect the overrun clutch and activate A only...resulting in 4th gear, right?

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Huh? I'd try just one thing at a time - put a switch in series with the overrun clutch solenoid wire and see if it works - first. Then you would be safer in getting creative....

A really good way to make major mods is to take one step at a time and explore what really happens. But that's just me...

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

I guess

What exactly does the overrun clutch DO? I researched it a little, and understand the basic concept of how it works in general, but not necessarily to how disengaging it engages 4th gear

...and the one question now, is there anything on this transmission we haven't decided to mess with?

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

What does it really do? I don't know - that's why you need to hook it up and exercise it - become an expert on what it affects - on how to use it to get 4th gear if you can... There may be a combination of the Clutch_On and the Overrun_OFF mods (another one!) that does some wonderful stuff. You can find out for all of us. You might be surprised about the number of PMs I get that want details about shift_fast and this Clutch_ON mods - the interest is pretty high.

Is there anything left we haven't explored? What really happens inside when you pull the shifter into first gear? What kind of codes will you get when you use these mods? Will the stock TC clutch hold up when switched ON a lot? How well does the stock TC clutch work when racing? But yeah, we're getting in there pretty deep.

There's gotta be more, but one step at a time. You can't have all your fun at once....

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

...and unfortunately, I'll be having none right now because snow is on its way

ghostmax301

iTrader: (7)

So would it look like this? except fused?(also what amp fuse should i use?)

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

That's it - connect the transmission wire to the center of the switch and the 12 volts to one pole and the wire from the tranny computer to the other pole. Remember, you use the switch to decide which signal goes to the transmission.

Just fuse between the battery and the switch - use a 10-amp fuse so momentary surges don't blow it, but anything stupid happening will blow it. And if it does, you can switch back to normal operation...

ghostmax301

iTrader: (7)

Well Holy shizmos.... I HIGHY recommend doing this mod(Clutch_On)... I will take step by step pix tomorrow but DAYUM.... The difference is night and day... dont really know the side affects yet but... I LOVE IT... props to grey for this ingenius idea With this combined with the DR-mod, i chirp the crap out of 2nd gear

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Who's idea?

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Yeah, it looks like you and Tatanko brought up the idea for discussion about 50 entries back. I think you had probably tried something with it.??...


All I did was research out how to hook it up and find how it worked on my Edge TC, with and without nitrous, and how it's been to drive it around when locked up, in different gears.

And I got to label it the Clutch_ON mod.. because I like catchy names for neat stuff, like the shift_fast and the MSD-controlled Shift_Fast_2 variants of Jime's mod a while back. I've been in contact with others who were planning on doing something with the TC clutch - just not much attention until lately.

Most good solutions happen this way - a few people think and talk about them, then one or more try something and keep exploring until it's proven to be cr*p or it turns into something really useful.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

You are gonna share, right ????

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Ha ya i dont care who did as long as it works and helps. No track this week it seems, maybe next weekend.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

maybe "it takes a village to make a mod work" ???? Heh..

I really want to hear what you come up with at the track !!

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

No track for me 'til March 24th (when it opens)

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

I gotta do school stuff.

Aaron92SE

iTrader: (128)

I've been doing a ton of reading in the past few days. And I'm so excited I'm about to puke! Ever since I talked to Rob at NRH a couple years ago, I've been meaning to wire in a switch that controls the lockup of my TC. Rob mentioned that he could do it for me and that got me thinking.

But I wanted to do enough research so I know I wouldn't blow anything. I have a Edge Racing converter and it's a step beefier than stock. But I was more concerned about what would happen if I had that sucker locked in the top of 1st gear. How slow is too slow for the TC being locked?

That's the question I couldn't get answered. So I read for a long time on the GN and LS1 forums. From what I read, some guys have it locked on the launch with their 4K high stall converters. Some said that wasn't the best idea. Then many lock it up when they shift into 2nd gear. Some wait until 3rd.

But for me, it would not help me unless I was able to lock it in 1st and/or 2nd gear. The stock AT in the Maxima already locks the TC at WOT in 3rd gear if the OD switch is off. So you can play with that when you're topping out 3rd gear. With the TC locked, it definitely puts more power to the ground. That's proven.

Now that people are trying this and not immediately blowing their trannies, I will do this in the next couple days. I already have the parts needed (switch, wiring, fuse holder). Just gotta wait for this nasty sleet/rain weather to pass over NC.

I will have some hard numbers when I hit the track next. Hopefully, I will have some dyno numbers. I probably won't make it to the track until end of Feb or early March. I still have other stuff to do to shave a couple more tenths in the 1/4 mile.

Just wanted to say thanks to everybody who isn't scared to make their car faster! It makes my life a little easier!

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

Let's see your car get deeper into the 13's

Aaron92SE

iTrader: (128)

I'm shooting for 13.5s with many other things I'm doing. The faster you get, the harder it is to shave a tenth!

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Tell me about it .....

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

My car feels pretty fast right now, I can't wait to feel it with the TC locked up
Maybe I will be the first auto NA 4th gen3.0 in the 13's

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

Didn't fanaticrockford already hit that goal? I could be wrong. I know he was at least shooting for it. His car is gutted hardcore, though.

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Oh, didn't know that. Well no point of going now haha

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

Pshh, no. Go be the first non-gutted one to do it

Aaron92SE

iTrader: (128)

Your statement has a derogatory sense to it. I don't understand.

Aaron92SE

iTrader: (128)

Ok, this afternoon I wired up my switch in order to lock up my torque converter. Yes, it makes a difference. Here's my story:

First off, I wired it up with a SPDT switch just as Grey mentioned. I have had about 15 solid minutes to play with this so far.

When I first got it all connected, of course, I was scared. So I warmed the car up, got it to about 50mph and in 3rd gear and flipped the switch, ... the TC locked instantly! It's a feeling I never expected! The stock TC locks up smoothly. BUt you are giving this direct 12v, which is instant. The normal operation gives it 8v to 14v. So it can be a smooth lockup experience.

So after I tried 3rd gear, I wanted to see how it would react to 2nd gear. So i drove it to about 50mph at half throttle in 2nd gear and locked it up... bam... I could DEFINITELY feels more power to the ground instantly.

So now I wanted to try 1st gear. I drove it up to about 4K rpm at half throttle, locked it up and it almost stalled on me. It didn't like that very well. More about 1st gear later.

So later that night, I had a few more minutes to play with it on my ride back home from a friend's house. This time I wanted to play with WOT a bit more. So I went WOT in 2nd gear starting at 50mph. Ran it unlocked up to about 4500rpm, then locked it up at WOT and BAM... more power. Then it shifted into 3rd gear and BOGGGGGGGED, then accelerated as normal.

So I played a bit more. I tried a few runs WOT in 3rd gear to see how that felt. It locks up MUCH quicker with the switch than with the normal OD on/off switch.

Then I tried a few more runs in 2nd gear. I went WOT in 2nd gear starting at 50mph and when I got to about 4500rpm, I locked it up and it shifted into 3rd and bogged. So I will definitely need to turn this off before it gets into 3rd.

So I made about 3 or 4 more runs before I got it timed PERFECTLY. Now I can run WOT in 2nd gear and as soon as I shift into 3rd, I unlock it so it doesn't bog. It's a fraction of a second window. Once you are in 3rd, you can wait until you are at around 5K until you lock it up again. It really depends on your car when you should lock it up in 3rd gear.

Now that I have the 2-3 shift mastered, I wanted to play with 1st gear WOT some more. I come to a stop and roll on the gas and go WOT... when I get to about 5000rpm, I lock it up and it pulls harder and bounces off the rev limiter. Now I know that there are just too many things to worry about with all these switches and manually shifting an automatic.

So I decide to just leave it in D this time and go thru 1st gear at WOT. I get it up to about 4500rpm and flip the switch and it pulls harder and shifts into 2nd and bogs... then pulls again. Hmmm....

So I have come to the conclusion that locking up the TC in 1st is just too hard to prove any results right now. Things just happen so quickly that it's too easily to make a mistake.

So my plan right now is to leave the shifter in D and launch with OD switch ON. Launch the car in D, leave it unlocked in 1st gear, shift into 2nd, wait until 4500rpm, lock TC, and as SOON as the 2-3 shift is about to happen by itself, unlock the TC, then it shifts into 3rd gear, wait until you get in the power band (5K to 5.5Krpm min for VE), then lock it up again. By that time, you will be close to the end of the 1/4 mile.

But the final results are that I am SURE this will help track times by locking it up in 2nd and 3rd gear. You just have to be careful about shifting with it locked up since you might bog a little bit, hurting those track times.

And be careful not to leave it locked up when you are slowing down to a stop. You will start to bog and stall and you will instantly know something is wrong... then you will look down and see you have the TC switch on.

And also, I wired in a red light that flashes in my face when I have it locked. After having this, I think this is a really good idea. Sure you will know when the switch is locked, but by having this light, it will shine whenever the TC is locked, regardless of where your switch is set.

It's pretty cool watching the light. When you TC lockup switch is off, you will see the light come on when the TC locks up in 3rd and 4th gear as normal. But you should notice that the light will come on gradually and smoothly when it's stock. But when you flip that switch, it instantly comes on and the TC locks up instantly! No more smooth TC lockup anymore!

I have more testing to do. Hopefully with track times before and afters. My car is consistant within 3 hundredths of a second in the 1/4 mile. So I will be able to easily tell if locking up the TC helps or hurts. But I can guarantee that it helps! You just gotta make sure you know when to flip that switch!

Goodnight and goodluck!

*Edit* And this is for you electrical gurus. How about when locking up the TC, it gets disabled by touching the brake pedal? Rob at NRH mentioned that to me. I thought it was a good idea.

Aaron92SE

iTrader: (128)

That's right. You guys like pictures.

I really like the location of the switch. A better location would probably be on the steering wheel so my left hand can control the switch.


I stuck a big red light right below the 3 gauges. I think it comes in handy. Just solder it in the middle wire of the SPDT switch. So it shines whenever the TC gets locked up regardless of how to have the switch set.

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Nice, I can't wait to see how it feels in my car.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Well - you've been busy.... It sounds like you're where I'm at when dealing with the TC clutch switching ON and OFF. One exception is that I wasn't bogging like you mentioned. When I spray, I don't bog, it seems, just break loose the DRs and hit the rev-limiter instantly. That was a surprise, wasn't it ?? Matbe you need more power ? Thought about nitrous ?

A couple of things - I'm only going to use this at the strip, so driving around with it ON just pointed out how much gear reduction and loss there is in even a custom torque converter. For me, there is no reason to have it ON unless I'm at WOT. Deciding where to engage it - and dis-engage it - will be a learning experience for each installation.

For your brake-switch question, I think that's only safely possible if you use a couple of relays, one to latch ON to engage the clutch from a switch, and another to pick from the brake circuit which can drop the clutch relay. Kinda complicated if you only want the clutch ON when WOT anyway.

If you think about using a MSD 8969 to control the clutch, you could program it to engage the clutch at say 5500 rpms, but disengage if you drop below 5300 - I think there's a -200 RPM difference required to drop the circuit. You would want to bracket whatever shift points you use, anyway... With the Shift_Fast_2 electronic controller, I could do something like that by adding another 8969 - control the clutch engagement RPM for each gear.

You really need something like the Shift_Fast_2 anyway - It combines the beast features of the DR-mod, the manual shift_fast shift controller, and nitrous cut for the shifts already. And you're very correct - things happen too darn fast to be flipping switches in fast cars. Or my reflexes are shot - whatever...

Keep investigating this wonderful need toy with your "red-light special" - I've got to go back outside and shovel more snow and frozen sleet from the driveway and sidewalks....

ghostmax301

iTrader: (7)

So are you saying the Clutch_ON mod is only really needed if your making good power, spraying or boosted? because with the mod, i noticed i get more mph, out of each gear BUT, i did a few 60mph to 80mph runs with it off and with it on, both times took about 4.32secs... I did it from 60-80 so i can use it shifting from 2nd to 3rd.

Now I did notice if i hit it a little after i launch it bogs, but kind of in a good way, as if i were spinning from the launch, i could hit the switch and the tires would catch/grip.

To make a long story short, i think i need a liiiiiiittle more power before i expect too much from the Clutch_ON mod..



Also i noticed you said you needed to decide "when to engage it - and dis-engage it"...
Does that mean cutting it on lets say, in 3rd at 85, then off in 3rd at about 120 is an advantage appose to leaving it on throughout the gear?

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

....
Well - you got a good night's sleep, I see...

Good questions - but what I said is about what I plan to do with the mod. It's up to everyone to figure out what works for themselves.

If you think about what you felt, and think about using the clutch mod as a way to step between gears, then you might find your use for it, since there is such a drop in gearing when it's engaged. Sort of first/without, first/with, second/without, second/with, third/without, third/with. I know there is both a drop in RPMs and power loss through the converter when you engage the clutch. Using battery voltage to engage the clutch also means that it happens NOW - nothing gentle about engaging the clutch with battery 12 volts applied.

The other side is having a lot of power pushing through an automatic tranny - when you engage the clutch, you can really feel the increased power hitting the ground. I still remember very clearly what happened when I was in shift_fast first, rolling at 3000, and engaged the clutch and then hit the 75-shot. Both of the DRs broke loose and we hit the rev limiter 4 or 5 times in an instant - before I could lift - and I've had experience with N2O for years. The second-gear run on the Interstate was another eye-opener - 4000 in shift_fast 2nd gear and nailed the 75-shot and BOOM the DRs broke loose and I was sliding to the left (and I have VLSD) and the car blasted up to rev-cut in a heartbeat. No TC loss there either. On another day, I made the same start on the Interstate in 2nd at 4000, hit the 75-shot up to rev-limit, manually shifted into 3rd (still with the clutch ON) and sprayed the second-stage 75-shot -we went up to 105 purty darn quick.

At this point, I am convinced this mod, coupled with the shift_fast concept, removes most of the extra power loss in an automatic. If you change tire diameter down to 23", "bogging" should go away. If you can shift_fast and control the Clutch_ON at the same time, you'll have eight forward gears. If this doesn't make you quicker on the track, then buy a Honda....learn how to use it....

Well, I've got more frozen sleet and wet snow to deal with - talk to you later if I don't have a heart attack !!

ghostmax301

iTrader: (7)

Ok, now the questions is, from 1st to 3rd gear should there be any point where i need to cut it off? i.e. when shifting gears.. I am asking this because you said i have eight gears, as if i use 1st till xxxxrpm then cut it on..etc for every gear..


because if i need to be cutting it off at any point,Im missing something and am obviously doing some damage to my tranny..

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

You want to shift before fuel-cut at 6550, right? If you launch in first and run up to say 5000, then engage the clutch, then disengage and shift to second gear and run up to 5000, then engage the clutch - repeat until topped out in 4th/clutch-ON... Aaron92SE rightly said it's too complicated to do this while racing, and he's right. Things happen too fast... You need a controller box to do it for you. The Shift_Fast_2 comes to mind......

Where is it obvious you're doing damage to the tranny? I can spray 150-shot and up-shift through all gears without lifting, and the tranny is fine. Forcing a downshift under full power will wreck the transmission sooner or later, clutch ON or OFF.. if you hit fuel-cut at 6550, your engine will cut out until it drops below fuel-cut, then start up again. Everybody (not running spray or boost) should try this a few times.

On the bright side, my driveway is mostly clear now, with just a few glaciers left on the shady side.

ghostmax301

iTrader: (7)

well, im still a high 14 sec car so. Im going to try off, until 5k then on,t hen off at 6.5k. then repeat every gear. my switch is in an easy access place so...


I was just wondering if i was doing damage with it on through shifts

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

None that anyone has mentioned or identified - yet. Maybe you'll be the first .... J/K..... You're one of the trailblazers, you know. Betcha Jime is keeping his eye on us.....

And anyone trying it out has the same concerns, believe me. I hope that if anyone has problems, they'll mention it here.

ghostmax301

iTrader: (7)

I also manually downshift when approaching lights with the Clutch_ON(HIGHLY DONT RECOMMEND). IMO its easier on the trans then allowing it to downshift itself. I would be in 3rd (O/D off) would pull the lever down to "D2",I time it perfectly and bleep the gas (pretty much a rev match) perfectly, to the point where, when i downshift to 2nd the car doesnt jerk/jump or anything.

As some know passengers are cheap g-force meters. you floor it, they fall into the seat, you brake they lean foward. When i do this, they dont move at all...

I guess Im pretty damn good....