Weimar Ben

iTrader: (5)

D@mmit, my 3.5 swap has 25k miles on it now and 26k on the motor, and she's burning oil, about 1 qt every 1000 miles, and maybe every 1qt every 500 miles during hard driving. There's no oil spots in my driveway.

I get a little puff of blue smoke on startup and a bit of blue smoke during WOT. When cruising, I see no smoke.

My motor is out of a 2006 maxima. Should I make a VQ33 (VQ35 bottom end w/VQ30 pistons? HR pistons and rings? Did anyone figure out the effective CR with HR pistons?

Ugggh!!

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Do a VQ35 with the HR pistons and rings.

MOHFpro90

iTrader: (11)

DaveVQ figured out a 12:1 CR with the HR pistons. I think. You would have to ask, Im sure he will chime in later.

accordingtou

iTrader: (41)

That sucks.
There is a possibility the oil rings are "tired" buuut I would:
Recondition the 3.5 heads & call it a day.
Oh btw Make sure you use viton valve seals.
Yup the secret is out VITON VALVE SEALS.
If you dont belive me ...Me 3.5 no smokey okey dokey.lol
Good luck

nismology

iTrader: (8)

VQ30 valve seals have the same exact part numbers as their VQ35 counterparts. That's not the problem. Heck, even the HR uses that part number.

maximariceboi

iTrader: (32)

that's what i'm helping my buddy do sometime next month =]



but in anycase..damn..06 motor burning oil.....i guess who ever had the motor b4 didnt break in the motor properly....

98SEBlackMax

iTrader: (9)

I would of thought they figured this problem out by now, I guess not.

Well at least a car equipped with a VQ35 engine can be touted as a three way hybrid. It burns gasoline, oil, and rubber.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

They have. The HR's and VHR's don't burn. It was the rings.

Mine won't.

Weimar Ben

iTrader: (5)

I've been thinking about using Total Seal Gapless piston rings. The idea looks pretty intriguing. Been reading about it on some other forums and people get around 225psi on compression tests and low leakdown figures. They're kinda spendy though and the HR pistons and rings are only $368 from Dave B.

But I think I'm kinda gun shy about a 12.0:1 CR for street use. I have a quad (raptor 350) with a 12.5:1 JE piston that used to be 9.2:1 and it's now a crazy stump puller.

I suppose a 12.0:1 CR might be OK with the right tune and a EMU.

Is it the non-revup 350z head gasket that's 3 layer that'll fit my 3.5?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

I don't know where the 12:1 thing is coming from. Hope it's not from that 240 guy because his logic was off.

MOHFpro90

iTrader: (11)

Im not sure where Dave got those numbers. At first he said 13:1 which I was like...yeah, right. Thats not gonna work. Anyhow, Ill tell him to post in here.

accordingtou

iTrader: (41)

"Thats not the problem"
I see you are 100% sure as if you tore down my (3.0 & 3.5 de's) yourself.
I guess "dry rotted" seals & the the oil on the valves was all caused by the rings hmmph.
Fyi I had import/ Domestic gurus/ Technicians & machinists agree aswell.
(Not that it makes a diff to you)
As I said before theres a possibility, but Try not to etch everything in stone.

Weimar Ben

iTrader: (5)

Just because you saw an engine with dry rotted valve seals, doesn't mean that the the problem is endemic. The fact is that these valve seals have been used and proven for 14 years with the introduction of the vq30, which did not have valve seal problems.

Oil on the intake valve stems can also be caused by the pcv system. Go look in your IM and you find oil in it unless you have a catch can.

DrunkieTheBear

iTrader: (17)

to do the VQ33 build, you need a VQ30 block with a VQ35 crank with a set of VH/VK45 rods and pistons, these should be the perfect combination to make it reach just the engine deck level, doing this with the VH/VK pistons will give you ~3.4mm vs the VQ35 rods/piston combo. What is so ironic about all of this is how this really can easily be done, the crank fits and the connecting end of the rods(VH/VK) are ~55m and the pin connections are ~22mm, exactly the same sizes are the VQ35 rods/pistons.

Now looking at the rods there a couple of combinations really, the VQ35 rods are 144mm and the VH/VK rods are 147.00mm (almost the VQ30 rods at 147.65). Now if you choose to do the VQ35 rods and VH/VK pistons you could actually keep a lower compression and run boost. I however, choose to use the VH/VK rods so that I can keep compression up, I believe with the VQ30 heads the combo I am using will run a compression of 11:1 to 11.5:1 (I think). So in other words I will always be NA, be the added advantage of doing so with the VH/VK rods is that they are forged and are stronger then and because of this the longer length of the rods which will support the equivalent engine speeds. I plan to set my redline at 7200-7500 rpms, which is like 7500-7800 rpms on a VQ35 and 8000-8400 rpms on a VQ30.

This engine is completely possible but very expensive as not only do you have to locate the parts but also you will have to have the crank rebalanced, upgrade the oil pump, and possilby have the block resleeved. I will be replacing all the bearings and every bolt, to make sure this engine returns to as close as to factory specs as possible. As since you have the engine apart, upgrade the cams and upgrade everything to HR parts for the heads. This engine when first thought of several years ago probably wasn't possible without breaking the bank, but this setup now at this time is not too far out of reach without breaking the bank especially with HR parts now available to help make this engine stronger.

The time is nearing that I guess I should start my NA build thread, so you guys can critize me and give me some advice....Since I'm not going boosted anymore, the funds have shifted so I might add a built tranny to the project

DrunkieTheBear

iTrader: (17)

I was going to have custom pistons made to give me 12:1 but I decided not to and just use the stock VH/Vk pistons for a VQ33 setup.....you really do have a hard time reading my text messages....

as far as running HR pistons will give a 10.6:1 CR in a VQ35 I would think....

accordingtou

iTrader: (41)

you type like your upset.....
"Calm down young grasshopper"
I just cant stand when people post like their words are "godly"
Nismology told me I was wrong How can he be 4 sure? he has never worked on the same exact engines I worked on.
3.0de 220k Eats a quart per oil change
3.0 218k+ eats no oil
3.0de 143k eats a quart a month
3.0de 150ish eats no oil
3.5's eat oil like a ****
3.5 70k plus with viton seals (same original bottom end) no oil consumption
I know of member(s) who changed the rings & I havent seen a thread yet about it fixing the issue.
As I stated before, It is possible the rings or the valve seals are the issue.
I never stated that viton valve seals fix oil consumption for all 3.0 3.5's as a FACT. I just suggested them to you. I know this convo is pointless but hey im bored anyway.lol

I suggested viton valve seals. Hey you no likey..... Call nissan and order some hr rings (blow by ftl)
Thanks for the catch can lesson (pure elementary) I have three 3.0 manifolds sitting im my trunk right now.& one 3.5 @ the shop .I see this is your thread so Im not going to argue with you..... too much.
"endemic" nice word.lol

All jokes aside.
I truely wish you luck with the oil consumption issue.
GOOD LUCK.

viton ftmfw

nismology

iTrader: (8)

It's higher than that. The key is the compression height of the HR pistons.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

It's simple logic really. Just because a couple 3.0's burn oil because of the valve seals doesn't automatically mean 3.5's that happen to use the same seals burn oil because of them. It's a KNOWN FACT that the rings are to blame. Seriously. Compression and leakdown tests done on burners back it up. HR's and VHR's don't burn oil, and they use the same seals. Furthermore, the VQ35 that the OP is talking about only has 26k on it. If the seals were so crappy that they'd fail at 26k then we'd be hearing about ALOT more VQ30DE's and DE-K's burning oil as well. But we don't.........

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

For what it's worth, my 2002 Maxima 3.5 engine with 60K, with Ebay S1 cams and headers and spraying a 50-shot + 50 shot doesn't use any oil while driving normally, but go WOT either NA or - worse -with spray - and it pumps oil out the PCV. I connected two oil-catchers in series before the SSIM, and they both get oil - more in the first one, of course, but spray a bit and lots of oil ( maybe 1 CC) wind up in the glass bulb each time...

I assume this is rings - and maybe the next build with forged pistons/rods will help ??

Weimar Ben

iTrader: (5)

So even with your anecdotal evidence with (4) 3.0L motors, with relatively high mileage suggest that valve seals aren't a problem.

This really pisses me off because my 2007 F-150 4.2L w/23k burns zero oil in 5000 mile oil changes. That motor design is pre-historic and dates back to 1982 which was a ripoff of the Buick 3.8L design in 1962. My old VQ30 had 123k on it and burned about 1 qt every 5000 miles.

I'll probably put viton seals in. They're cheap, so why not? Anyone know of a good place to buy them?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

If the price is right I'd consider throwing 'em in too.

KRRZ350

iTrader: (29)

I've come across two VQ30's that had bad valve seals.....

...and they did exactly what every other car with bad valve seals does.

Not the problem on the 3.5's OC problems, sorry, but it's not. If it was, they would be smoking upon start-up.

My theory (actually, it's someone else's, and I agree with it) is block distortion, the 3.5's are basically the same block punched out, and they went more than it could handle, they brought the walls to close to the head-bolts, and that coupled with the 4-bolt head design (creates more distortion than other designs that use 5-bolts around the circumference) is why the 3.5's consume. It was pointed out to me on a block, you can see the shiny wear marks in the crosshatch in certain areas of the bore that correspond with the head-bolts. I've since seen it on another 3.5 as well.

One things for certain though, if you aren't seeing a puff at start-up, the valve seals aren't to blame. But I've also got to give a to replacing them with some viton ones if you are in that area, especially if the motor has seen some heat.

KRRZ350

iTrader: (29)

Lol, silly me, I never actually read the 1st few posts, just about half a page up. Meh, w/e, all the same still applies, unteresting to note that another ones is probably down the tubes with valve-seals, whatever, you could always pull the timing cover in car and than it's not too bad, another 1/2 day removing cams & spings etc with compressed air in the plug hole, I've only done that on 2-valve 4-bangers though, I imagine it would be an absolute NIGHTMARE on a vq

nismology

iTrader: (8)

@ 26k miles? Seals will eventually wear out. Doesn't necessarily mean it's endemic though, like weimar ben mentioned.

Or maybe the short skirts of the VQ35 pistons promote instability in the bore which could have a few different consequences. I don't buy bore distorsion, especially with the even clamping force that torque-to-yield bolts provide. Properly rebuilt VQ35's don't burn, even without the benefit of TTY head bolts.

accordingtou

iTrader: (41)

I also agree with the last few post.
My machinest also pointed out the short skirts on the stock & after market pistons.This is why a torque plate is a must during bore & honing imo.

ajcool2

iTrader: (43)

Hmm this thread makes my decision to go with a dek much easier.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

What about the L32 pistons?

DAVEB

iTrader: (133)

What about A35 new Maxima? 10.6 & only $169 for all 6 & rings! Somebody needs to CC a VQ35 head!

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I might do that at some point if I get motivated... I've got 2 sets of heads just sitting at the moment.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

I would expect them to be around 55-56 cc.

Weimar Ben

iTrader: (5)

Found a bit more info. I found that the deck height and rod length on the HR had been increased,+8.4mm and +7.8mm respectively.

The piston is slightly domed and the compression height is definitely increased substantially.

Found these pics from specdracing at http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=207033&page=7







Looks like he didn't measure anything. Damn. But the piston to deck height is decreased with the HR piston. He's probably right about the 11.5-12.0:1 CR considering the compression test, dome, and increased compression height.

The DLC coating tempts me too, but I'm not sure how much friction would actually be reduced compared to the moly coating on the DE pistons.

But the 2009 maxima pistons are cheaper than sin. I could llive with 11.5:1 CR, 12 is really iffy. Decisions, decisions.

I suppose the worst that can happen is that I blow the motor with HR pistons in it. Which would not be that big a deal since VQs are so cheap.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

That's the guy I was referring to in post # 10.


And last I knew the DLC coating was only on the buckets. Didn't know it was on the piston skirts too.

Weimar Ben

iTrader: (5)

Isn't the black coating on the skirt a DLC coating or is it still moly?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Either way I'll have a set to inspect in a week or so.

Deckdout2

iTrader: (151)

Wait.......I hear that with the HR pistons in a VQ35DE it would only bring up the CR .3 points to 10.6. Is this not correct?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

The HR has 10.6:1 compression. That doesn't necessarily mean that HR pistons in a DE block with DE heads won't make for a higher compression ratio. It, in fact, will be higher based solely on the HR pistons increased compression height.

Deckdout2

iTrader: (151)

So if I were to use HR heads as well as the HR pistons in the DE block, could I then speculate that the CR would stay at 10.6 or is that not how it works?

DrunkieTheBear

iTrader: (17)

Yon can definetly tell the compression will be higher based solely on the fact that the pistons go higher then the deck.

I still say 12.0:1 for this.

Definetly would be interesting to see it done.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

It's not quite 12.0:1 based on the cranking PSI numbers.

Deckdout2

iTrader: (151)

Well with the application I'm looking for I need to do more research as to exactly what CR will be yielded with Eagle Rods, HR Pistons, and with/without HR Heads. Anything over 11.5:1 is too high for my needs at the moment.